IMPORTANT! -Applies to US citizens!-

[Tommy]

In the state of Massachusetts a bill has been passed to the House of Representatives. It states unless the citizens of Massachusetts have something to say against it, every church in MA will have to pay a large quantity of money every month and have a person come in and decide if they should close the church depending on what it stands for.

Guys, please pray for me and Christians in my state that we get through this.

If we just let this happen, the group of people that bassed this bill will not stop at MA but go from state to state until it is legal in all of America.

It`s just like the Gay Marriage law. We coudl`ve stopped it but we didn`t. We CAN stop this.

[ChristianKitsune]

...............

WHAAAAAAAT?! THAT'S INSANE!!! Where did you hear this? (link)? *fumes*

I will most definately pray...thanks TD!

[shooraijin]

Before causing all sorts of panic, please post a URL substantiating this. I think responses should be limited until this is done.

[Puritan]

Alright. I have the information about this straight from the Massachusetts State Legislature. This link http://www.mass.gov/legis/bills/senate/st02/st02267.htm links to the text of the bill, and this link http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/ goes to the actual body of law modified by this bill. From what I have been able to garner, this requires all churches that have an income of over $5000 a year or that raise their money from over 10 people to pay for an audit to report their finances to the state. Now, from what I can gather, this is already a requirement for charitable organizations which are not religious in nature, so the law is simply extending these requirements to religious organizations. Paying for the audit would be difficult for some churches, especially small ones, and this seems to be the main argument I have read against this bill. This link http://www.masscouncilofchurches.org/PressReleaseNov9_05.htm is a press release from the Massachusetts Council of Churches condemning this bill as it will be a burden on smaller congragations.

Now, for my two cents. While this will be somewhat burdensome, I don't see a reason why churches should be exempt from audit requirements. Churches would need to budget for this expense, but as this is already a requirement of most charities I would suspect that this type of audit is not unreasonably expensive. In my opinion, churches should likely have someone outside the church audit their finances once a year anyway simply to ensure church funds are being used properly and to prevent graft. I could be wrong, but it's not like the state is putting an unreasonable levy on churches, they simply want to ensure the finances of religious organizations are in order like they do for every other tax exempt organization.

[ClosetOtaku]

I'm wondering if this will survive a Constitutional challenge. It could be considered the equivalent of a "poll tax" on Churches. If a Church refuses to comply, what will the State do -- shut it down? An interesting example of where the so-called "wall" between Church and State appears to have a one-way door...

[Tommy]

Thanks Puritan. My pastor made an announcement regarding it on Sunday. He`s going to be the leader of some meeting with the house of reps.

[ChristianKitsune]

so they want us to PAY to worship God? I agree with the one way door.. the Government really needs to back off IMO.

*sighs* I will continue to pray over this...

anyone know why the sudden drive to do this?

[Slater]

*waits for someone to read the Bill of Rights*

[Tommy]

Because the people who brought this up are an anti-christian movement.

[Puritan]

Wait, this has nothing to do with paying to worship God. Simply put, the government in the state is requiring oversight of tax exempt religious organizations, just like they do for charities. One one hand, I can understand the furvor, this will be a government placed burden on churches. However, this could also be viewed as oversight of tax-exempt organizations. This seems to be a way to have the government ensure that a church is not being used by someone to avoid paying taxes or other fraud.

[Slater]

wait, so their view on seperation of church and state doesn't apply here? Very logical

[Puritan]

Well, if you want to look at it from that perspective, religious organizations are recieving special treatment not given any other organizations: tax exemption without annual audits. This bill simply extends government oversight of non-profit organizations to cover religious organizations the same way it covers non-religious non-profit organizations. This isn't a special tax on religious organizations, it simply gives them equal responsibility under the law. Churches are already held to local fire code and civil law, this is another government regulation for civil protection. At least, that's how I look at it, and likely how many of the bill's writers look at it.

I think this should proably be moved to general discussion or closed, the topic seems to be trending more into a moral discussion than a topic of prayer.

[Ryupower]

I'm not a US citizen, but this is drastic!
I'm praying...

[Tommy]

Would I being selfish, if I requested ofr this to be stickied?

[Arnobius]

Well, if you want to look at it from that perspective, religious organizations are recieving special treatment not given any other organizations: tax exemption without annual audits. This bill simply extends government oversight of non-profit organizations to cover religious organizations the same way it covers non-religious non-profit organizations. This isn't a special tax on religious organizations, it simply gives them equal responsibility under the law. Churches are already held to local fire code and civil law, this is another government regulation for civil protection. At least, that's how I look at it, and likely how many of the bill's writers look at it.

I think this should proably be moved to general discussion or closed, the topic seems to be trending more into a moral discussion than a topic of prayer.

There are dangers to it.

First of all, it is not a case of making Churches the same as non-profits, it is infringing on the rights of the freedom of worship as it had been understood up to now.

Non Profits are taxed if they get political. Now what if some zealous Attourney General decides that being opposed to gay marriage or abortion is a "political" stance and revokes the tax exempt status?

[Puritan]

But then again, how can you distinguish between churches and tax shelters or companies without an audit? This may seem obvious, but isn't. The Latter-Day Saints Church (otherwise known as the Mormon Church) owns for-profit companies but escapes financial audit because it's a church, the church of Scientology sells it's services to adherants, and other churches have had similar structures. I think it is important that these practices are monitored so the "church" doesn't turn into a way to make money for church leaders. I will agree that we should agressively fight any attempt to tax churches, but I also think it would be wise for the governement to monitor churches, especially if they become multinational corporations. The LDS church has an estimated $30 Billion in assets, I think the government should pay attention to their finances rather than allowing them to hide that information because the organization is a church.

[Rambo]

Ya I am praying and God can definitely stop this. Hay don't forget to pray for the ones who passed this to see there mistakes.
"...Its the end of the world and we know it and we feel fine" cause if this gets worse stay stong dont give in. Gods on our side we will win in the end.

[Arnobius]

But then again, how can you distinguish between churches and tax shelters or companies without an audit? This may seem obvious, but isn't. The Latter-Day Saints Church (otherwise known as the Mormon Church) owns for-profit companies but escapes financial audit because it's a church, the church of Scientology sells it's services to adherants, and other churches have had similar structures. I think it is important that these practices are monitored so the "church" doesn't turn into a way to make money for church leaders. I will agree that we should agressively fight any attempt to tax churches, but I also think it would be wise for the governement to monitor churches, especially if they become multinational corporations. The LDS church has an estimated $30 Billion in assets, I think the government should pay attention to their finances rather than allowing them to hide that information because the organization is a church.

Then they get a warrant and investigate fraud, which can be done under current law. This bill shifts the burden of proof from law enforcement to the one being investigated, which strikes me as problematic

[Kale]

so they want us to PAY to worship God?

The Catholics did it... why can't the U.S.? I think the tax thing doesn't really matter, but if they start shutting churches down for, say, not letting homosexuals attend or speaking out against homosexuality, THEN there is a problem...

[Arnobius]

This is not a forum for bashing denominations, so please leave those opinions outside CAA

[shooraijin]

The Catholics did it... why can't the U.S.?

Not appropriate.

[Steeltemplar]

The Catholics did it... why can't the U.S.?

Beyond being against the rules of the forum here, I'd like to point out that this isn't even true. The Catholic Church has never charged people to worship. And I would say that if you want to make such accusations at all, then citing some manner of proper source would be essential.

[Silent Hunter]

Thanks for putting this thread up, I'm gonna use these links for my current events report tomorrow

[Myoti]

I can understand what you're saying Puritan, but the fact is, this could potentially lead to something a bit more... drastic.

And as Slater pointed out, why is that the supposed "Seperation of Church and State" doesn't apply here (especially since the only evidence of this was to protect the church, not keep it out of our government and schools).

[Sakura15]

Wow, this is crazy. Im definatly praying.

[Rambo]

I don't want to say much and Ill say I am praying.

[Tommy]

-Takes a breath of relief-

Thanks for all your prayers.
The votes were monday.

The votes against it DOMINATED. I`d say 3 to 112 House of Reps voted for it.

Thanks guys.

[Doubleshadow]

I am sure we have not seen that last of this, in any state. I'm sure people who dislike churches, Christians, or Christ would find a way to make such a law, if benign on its own, into a terrible weapon.