How do you deal with unbelievers online?

[amplifiez]

Hey guys, so I'm sure most people on here know how hostile unbelievers can be towards Christians on the internet. If I had a dollar for every time I heard a sarcastic God and the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus comparison, I'd be on my own island somewhere. I may be generalizing, but most atheists are cynical, and when they ask questions such as "if God exists then why is there so much suffering in the world?", they're not looking for an answer, they're speaking rhetorically. If they really wanted an answer, they could just do a Google search. There are tons of sites out there specifically for skeptics, not to mention books as well. Atheists love saying how sophisticated and intellectual they are, so surely they can use Google or Bing.

I love studying Apologetics and learning about the connectivity between science and Christianity. However, I've never once met an atheist who was receptive to anything I've said. Here's a typical example:

Me: Did you know that it's mathematically impossible for the universe to have come into existence by chance?

Classic Atheist Responses:
A) More scientists don't believe in God than those who do. (Okay, forget math then... The reason more scientists are agnostics or atheists is because of the bias in the scientific community. Regardless, there's been plenty of times when the contestant on Who Wants to Be a Millionaire used his ask-the-audience lifeline, and the overwhelming majority said the answer was, say, B, and it turned out to be C. The moral is - make up your own mind!)
B) Santa Claus isn't real and neither is God. (Supplement an answer with sarcasm, nice, not to mention original.)
C) How can I believe in a God I can't see? (If God showed Himself, we'd all have no choice but to worship him, thus we'd lose our free will. Besides, what about dark matter? We can't see that either.)
D) If God exists, why did [insert human tragedy] happen? (We sinned, therefore we live in a sinful world, and **** happens in a sinful world. Plain and simple.)

Notice all these replies didn't even answer my question. And by the way, Jesus' historical fulfillment of the hundreds of Messianic prophecies was mathematically impossible, too.

It sucks that popular opinion now is that you have to choose either A or B - Science of Religion, when they're perfectly compatible. The majority of atheists hide behind the facade of science, but barely know anything about science at all. I really am at my wits end on how to deal with them. I've tried ignoring their comments on Christian YouTube videos that they flock to for kicks, but is ignoring unbelievers really what we as Christians should be doing? I don't think so, which is why I often try to reach out to them as respectfully as I can. I like to think I'm a fairly witty person, and I've lost my patience with people like the ones I've been describing many times. Ultimately, I won my battles by belittling my opponents' grammar, knowledge, etc, but did that bring any of them any closer to Christ? Not at all. If anything, it accomplished the opposite. That's why it's so difficult. We have to walk a very fine line. It's especially hard not to fight back when our intelligence is insulted, but Jesus did say to turn the other cheek.

The conclusion I've come to is that the atheists trolling the internet just want attention. If they really wanted answers, they would do their own research. However, out of the many reasons that contribute to their unbelief, I think one of the most prevalent is that they hold some stereotypes about believers. Maybe correcting those stereotypes is what we Christians should be focusing on. We can be awfully hypocritical, which doesn't escape their radar, and just reinforces their behavior as justifiable. I'm not unaware that I was a bit cynical myself in this post... I'm working on that, but I've always been thin-skinned, a little prideful, and had a short fuse, which is practically a recipe for sarcastic people. Honestly, it took me a long time to admit those things. After all, no one wants to say they're sensitive. It could be that atheists are porcupines in that sense too.

So, what are your guys' opinions on how to deal with unbelievers? Have you ever lost your temper while dealing with one, and just wished they would see the truth? Should we not bother with them and just leave them to God? What if God's intention is for us to reach out to them? How should we go about that without being pushy or mushy? I feel that dealing with unbelievers, especially online, is the most difficult part of being a Christian. What do you all think?

[Mr. SmartyPants]

It's not so much that science can "prove" or "disprove" theism, but it's more of a question of whether or not some sort of empirical method of study (science) can study something that you can't empirically study (religion). That being said, science doesn't have any answers for theism as well. So naturally your hardcore scientists often tend to lean towards an atheistic approach to things.

This is, of course, all depending on what your underlying philosophical framework of understanding life or reality is. I think Agnosticism makes the most empirical and rational sense. They keywords are "empirical" and "rational". I also think Christianity is very irrational and nonsensical. However I'm still a Christian.

I used to be seriously into apologetics when I was younger, but that changed throughout the years. Apologetics is a joke. Except maybe for Plantinga. But even he has his shortcomings. But Lessing destroys historical apologetics, Hume and Feuerbach destroys most philosophical arguments for God, and regular thinking destroys presuppositional apologetics and reformed epistemology. And my golly poststructuralism does weird things to everything to the point of things no longer being defined or signified.

So make friends instead of enemies. It's not about people changing their minds but people loving them like they are our brother or sister in Christ. Just like hang out with people and see what they're about. Christians should not be concerned about making others into Christians. Christians should be concerned about being Christ to all others.

[Xeno]

Rather than trying to argue with us about how science doesn't have all the answers yet, why don't you just try to be friends with us instead? In regards to your hypothetical Q&A, the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. Just because present data does not exist to wholly prove a natural universe creating theory does not mean that it didn't happen. By the same instance, any atheist who is being honest with their-self will not write off the the very minute notion that some creative force may exist, but since that cannot be tested (as MSP pointed out), and the odds of this being the case are stacked very much against this, we opt to not believe it.

And yes, you've read that post correctly, there are a few atheists on this forum, I'm one of them.

Edit Note: I also resent the fact that we're viewed as something that has to be "dealt with" like we're some kind of infestation or something. Please try to expand your world view to one of acceptance. Not only will you be a happier person yourself, but the people you currently surround yourself with and the ones you choose to place in your life in the future will be of a higher grade.

[goldenspines]

You love them, just like everyone else. [/summary of below post]

Basically MSP and Xeno hit it on the head; we need to change the focus from the ignorant "prove atheists wrong and make them see THE TRUTH" and just make friends with people. Why do we have some righteous mission to disprove people who disagree with us?
Short answer: We don't.
God does call us to love everyone though (friends and enemies alike) and even in Jesus' ministry, he didn't waste time arguing with people who disagreed with him (even though they tried to goad him on about things), but he did take the time to build relationships and get to know people.

To answer your other questions:
- I think I've lost my temper more with fellow believers than I have with non-believers.
- I leave their souls to God, yes. We cannot change the heart, only God can. We can, however, be awesome people and make friends and be able to hang out and chat without biting each others' heads off over theology.
- I kind of answered this question in the previous one. For me personally, I trust in God to direct me in the way I should go concerning this.
- FRIENDSHIP.

Dealing with anyone online can be especially difficult because it's mainly text communication.


Side note: All trolls want attention, regardless of their beliefs. Online, trolls should not be feed. I thought this was fairly common knowledge. XD;


EDIT: Holy wrong forum batman! I didn't notice this was in General at first. Moved to Christian Growth Q and A.

[KazeShiki]

To put it simply, I don't deal with them. I generally refrain from discussing religion on internet forums because 99% of the time, they are just trolling and have no intention of listening to you. Even if there is someone who is willing to have an actual conversation, that's best for a private conversation and not on a forum where threads can be derailed so easily. Also, I personally don't really feel qualified to have an in-depth discussion about all the specifics of Christianity. In terms of knowledge, I'm quite lacking in that field to have a real discussion. Personally, my strength is my faith in God and I realize I can't explain it logically, so if a person is going to pester me for concrete reasoning, I will just straight up say I have no answer and leave it at that.

However, there is a big difference between "unbelievers" and trolls. Pretty much every friend I have from the internet is an atheist, some even anti-Christian, and we get along great as long as religion is not the topic at hand. As others have said, there is no reason to view a person as a nonbeliever and approach them with an intent to convert them to Christianity. Sure, I'll admit I wish all my atheist friends were Christian, but for the moment, all I can do right now is show them at least on example of a Christian who can love them for who they are and not attempt to shove religion down their throats. Maybe one day that will lead to something else, but I'm not going to force conversations they don't want.

I realize the internet can make it seem like atheists are almost all cynical trolls, but that goes both ways, and atheists are as much victims of cynical Christians as we are of cynical atheists. The more negative a person, the louder his voice, and the stronger impression it leaves. The reality is both atheists and Christians have a wide spectrum of people who are reasonable and understanding to unreasonable and cynical. It's just that the negative people tend to be the most vocal.

[amplifiez]

Hm, I think I like you guys lol.

@SmartyPants: If you don't mind me asking, what do you find nonsensical about Christianity? I'm not asking to set myself up for a rebuttal, I'm just genuinely interested. I have Plantinga's latest book: Where the Conflict Really Lies. It's a tough read. I enjoy Norman Geisler's philosophical arguments for God more. "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist" was my favorite book by him. His writing is casual, not stuffy like Plantinga's. If you feel like diving back into the world of Apologetics, or just dipping your toe in to test the temperature, I'd recommend it. He has a section about how Agnosticism is a self defeating philosophy that might interest you. Paul Copan is excellent, too. Any recommendations from you? I'm always looking for some. Anyway, I think America is in a state where people are generally convinced that Christianity is being buried by science. Apologetics seems like the only shovel we've got.

@Xeno: "Dealing with" probably wasn't the best phrase to use. Unnoticeably until now, I've been viewing atheists as antagonists; probably because I've never known any personally, and have only conversed with them in combative discussion. Actually, I've probably had plenty of nice conversations with atheists, and just not known it.

Not that all of us Christians are innocent victims, but the overwhelming majority of the time, we don't pick fights with atheists. Go on virtually any Christian YouTube video and you'll see nonbelievers posting rude comments to get a rise out of people. When you're being constantly assailed, some sort of action needs to be taken. For instance, if a bunch of kids on a playground continually get harassed by another group of kids, it could be said that they need to figure out a way of dealing with their attackers. It wasn't my intention to say that all atheists are playground bullies, though.

Also, on the topic of infestation, I think Christians and atheists often times see one another as termites. I'd say there's more tension between our respective parties than there is between Republicans and Democrats. Nevertheless, I won't sugarcoat my views here, even if it means not fitting in. I think you're similar in that sense. None of the posts I've read by you are the least bit shy, after all. Not to mention, seeing as you're outnumbered on here, I doubt you care much about being liked. Getting back on track, I believe that atheism is wrong, and I feel that I have a responsibility to speak out against it. Am I well enough equipped to do so? Hardly. Forget inadequate knowledge, I don't even really have enough patience to be persuasive in the first place. Believe me, I'm a selfish introvert who hates confrontation. I'd like nothing more than to keep my beliefs to myself, but I can't ignore my conscience. It's like when you get woken up by a car alarm, and try to ignore it and go back to sleep, but you just can't. I'd like it if we could still get along, though. I promise not to try and fail at converting you haha. I have my own skin to worry about after all, especially as of late. I am interested in your opinions, as well. Not for the purpose of rebuffing them, like I told SmartyPants, but just because I've never talked with an atheist casually before. To be honest, and partially ridiculous, I actually feel like I'm communicating with an alien life-form haha. You atheists really are intimidating. When there's one atheist in a forum, it kind of feels like someone in a black & yellow-striped t-shirt mingling in a room full of people with bee allergies.

As I'm trying to squeeze into your shoes here, put yourself in mine for a minute. I believe there is a God, and that He sent his only son to die for our sins. As such, I believe that anyone who doesn't accept Christ is, for lack of a better word - a goner. With that in mind, it's hard to consider being friends with a nonbeliever because, to speak metaphorically, I see them as fatally ill. Bear with me here. The antidote is right there in front of them, but they won't take it. So, at first us Christians try to convince nonbelievers to take the medicine. When they refuse, we may try to shove it down their throats. It's hard to do neither and just say "okay, die then." Christians are supposed to aim to be like Christ. Being like Christ means being loving. So, I understand where the friendship and love vibes are coming from, but is it loving to watch someone die without at least trying to help? To answer my own question, and to circle back to my original post, I think the best I can do is just share my beliefs and not become obsessed with "saving" people. So, in contradiction to mostly everything I've said so far, wanna be friends? Lol.

@Goldie: (I think I saw others call you that.)
My last paragraph to Xeno was sort of my response to you as well. The Bible does tell us to defend our faith and tell others about it quite clearly, but I do see where you're coming from. I can identify with your frustration with other believers, too. I hope I'm not doing that to you right now lol. And sorry for the misplacement, I'm a noob, spare me!

[amplifiez]

@KazeShiki: All I can say is thanks for the great response. I'm seriously stunned by how everyone on here is so awesome. I didn't expect it at all. I'm really glad I stumbled across this site.

[goldenspines]

@Goldie: (I think I saw others call you that.)
My last paragraph to Xeno was sort of my response to you as well. The Bible does tell us to defend our faith and tell others about it quite clearly, but I do see where you're coming from. I can identify with your frustration with other believers, too. I hope I'm not doing that to you right now lol. And sorry for the misplacement, I'm a noob, spare me!

Goldie or Goldy is easier to type than my full username, so it's fine. XD
Your whole response is quite well and honestly worded, in case you were worried.
I agree with you, though defending is quite different from going out and taking on battles that aren't worth it, though. God doesn't need us to defend every attack on Him, though if our faith is attacked personally, defending is called for, I think. Though if you somehow feel the need to respond to every comment in the whole internet that bashes Christianity and God, you may be taking things too personally (I speak as an expert in the field of taking things too personally).

I suppose if you want to continue conversation with me, feel free to shoot me a PM (see the cute little red envelope over here under my profile -------->)

[TWWK]

Maybe correcting those stereotypes is what we Christians should be focusing on. We can be awfully hypocritical, which doesn't escape their radar, and just reinforces their behavior as justifiable. I'm not unaware that I was a bit cynical myself in this post... I'm working on that, but I've always been thin-skinned, a little prideful, and had a short fuse, which is practically a recipe for sarcastic people. Honestly, it took me a long time to admit those things. After all, no one wants to say they're sensitive. It could be that atheists are porcupines in that sense too.

I've been where you are. I used to spend endless hours on Y!A, anime forums, and other places defending the faith. It can be frustrating and leave you with bitter and defeated feelings.

Instead, I've moved a very different direction, one that I think you allude to. I think it's very true that many nonbelievers have very firm beliefs about who Christians are. I wouldn't say these are unfounded, either, because the idea of a close-minded, hypocritical, judgmental Christian is perhaps a good representative of what many or most evangelicals in the U.S. are like. However, we can show them that we are loving to them, as God loves us all, as we develop relationships. One-and-done comments do nothing, but friendships are likely to open doors. Showing someone you genuinely care about them helps develop trust, and it's in a trusting relationships that you can engage someone on a deep level in regards to faith. I have one close friend now that is "Internet only," and we regularly talk about faith, but I don't think he would really "hear" me unless we had a genuine friendship first.

Quality over quantity - if you can develop one or two good friendships with nonbelievers, you're likely to be of more use to God than if you answers 1,000 people with one-post responses, even if those posts are accurate and well-worded.

[amplifiez]

@TWWK: Yeah, I think you're totally right. Once you believe, it seems so obvious that you can't fathom how you hadn't believed beforehand. I think we become so excited at wanting to share what we found that we zealously attempt an internet-wide rescue campaign, and expect great results, then are dumbfounded and disappointed when we're dismissed. Jesus told us we would be persecuted, and we definitely are, that's for sure. That's great that you managed to get through to a couple of your friends. That's my goal, too. I've only reached out to a couple close friends on the subject, with less than amazing results. But at least a seed was planted. God can do a lot with just that. Thanks for the encouragement.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

@SmartyPants: If you don't mind me asking, what do you find nonsensical about Christianity? I'm not asking to set myself up for a rebuttal, I'm just genuinely interested. I have Plantinga's latest book: Where the Conflict Really Lies. It's a tough read. I enjoy Norman Geisler's philosophical arguments for God more. "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist" was my favorite book by him. His writing is casual, not stuffy like Plantinga's. If you feel like diving back into the world of Apologetics, or just dipping your toe in to test the temperature, I'd recommend it. He has a section about how Agnosticism is a self defeating philosophy that might interest you. Paul Copan is excellent, too. Any recommendations from you? I'm always looking for some. Anyway, I think America is in a state where people are generally convinced that Christianity is being buried by science. Apologetics seems like the only shovel we've got.

I don't mean disrespect, but I'm done with apologetics. I'm very familiar with most of their arguments and I find them to be lacking and intellectually dissatisfying. I'm familiar with Geisler and Copan (Sidenote: I agree with Geisler when it comes to having "faith" to believe in some sort of non-theism, because someone is then still attempting to purport an objective philosophical framework). I get their arguments but there are too many underlying assumptions (epistemological frameworks) that just assume too much. By contrast I'm also familiar with atheists such as Dawkins, Hitchens, or Sam Harris. They're idiots when it comes to religious philosophy. And as with the apologists, they assume too much with certain epistemological frameworks.

This doesn't mean I don't appreciate apologetics. I had a wonderful relationship with my apologetics professor in college (whom I frequently debated with). But at the end of the day it's far limiting.

All that being said, I think Christianity is rather irrational and nonsensical. A lot of argumentation in search for what is "objectively true" is based too much in assuming what we believe to be true is actually true, and that we have actual knowledge of things. The theology of Soren Kierkegaard mirrors much of what I believe today. Other important people are Nietzsche, Camus, Feuerbach, and Karl Barth, just to name a few. They're worth checking out.

[Xeno]

Hm, I think I like you guys lol.

@Xeno: "Dealing with" probably wasn't the best phrase to use. Unnoticeably until now, I've been viewing atheists as antagonists; probably because I've never known any personally, and have only conversed with them in combative discussion. Actually, I've probably had plenty of nice conversations with atheists, and just not known it.

Not that all of us Christians are innocent victims, but the overwhelming majority of the time, we don't pick fights with atheists. Go on virtually any Christian YouTube video and you'll see nonbelievers posting rude comments to get a rise out of people. When you're being constantly assailed, some sort of action needs to be taken. For instance, if a bunch of kids on a playground continually get harassed by another group of kids, it could be said that they need to figure out a way of dealing with their attackers. It wasn't my intention to say that all atheists are playground bullies, though.

Your first problem is reading comments on YouTube. YT has some of the dumbest commenters on the internet. I'd rather read the comments on a reddit topic about Robin being better than Superman. If you ever go to a video about atheism the exact opposite of what you're saying is what you'll find; essentially Westboro Baptist Church-esque vomit all over the comment section. It's all pretty funny when you just step back and look at it for what it is.

Also, on the topic of infestation, I think Christians and atheists often times see one another as termites. I'd say there's more tension between our respective parties than there is between Republicans and Democrats.

lol, this is a totally different topic. I will not go down this road because it's not allowed on this forum, but yeah.

Nevertheless, I won't sugarcoat my views here, even if it means not fitting in. I think you're similar in that sense. None of the posts I've read by you are the least bit shy, after all. Not to mention, seeing as you're outnumbered on here, I doubt you care much about being liked.

Well, you've at least got that figured out. Seems to take some people a while to catch on about this.

Getting back on track, I believe that atheism is wrong, and I feel that I have a responsibility to speak out against it. Am I well enough equipped to do so? Hardly. Forget inadequate knowledge, I don't even really have enough patience to be persuasive in the first place. Believe me, I'm a selfish introvert who hates confrontation. I'd like nothing more than to keep my beliefs to myself, but I can't ignore my conscience. It's like when you get woken up by a car alarm, and try to ignore it and go back to sleep, but you just can't. I'd like it if we could still get along, though. I promise not to try and fail at converting you haha. I have my own skin to worry about after all, especially as of late. I am interested in your opinions, as well. Not for the purpose of rebuffing them, like I told SmartyPants, but just because I've never talked with an atheist casually before. To be honest, and partially ridiculous, I actually feel like I'm communicating with an alien life-form haha. You atheists really are intimidating. When there's one atheist in a forum, it kind of feels like someone in a black & yellow-striped t-shirt mingling in a room full of people with bee allergies.

We're humans. We live and breathe and love and laugh and hurt and cry and mourn and die.

There is nothing different about an atheist or a doubtful agnostic than there is a theist than their views on religion. Just like there is nothing different between a caucasian and someone of African descent aside from the pigment of their skin. We are people and deserve to be treated as such, just the same as you are a person and deserve the exact same courtesy. There is nothing to be intimidated by unless your intent is specifically to be confrontational regarding belief structures. Which, if that is the case, then you only need to be prepared to defend what you believe because those who believe different are going to challenge you.

As I'm trying to squeeze into your shoes here, put yourself in mine for a minute. I believe there is a God, and that He sent his only son to die for our sins. As such, I believe that anyone who doesn't accept Christ is, for lack of a better word - a goner. With that in mind, it's hard to consider being friends with a nonbeliever because, to speak metaphorically, I see them as fatally ill. Bear with me here. The antidote is right there in front of them, but they won't take it. So, at first us Christians try to convince nonbelievers to take the medicine. When they refuse, we may try to shove it down their throats. It's hard to do neither and just say "okay, die then."

Firstly, thank you for at least having the courage to admit that you think I'm going to Hell. There is no sarcasm in this statement. I get frustrated when people believe that about me and yet dance around the topic gently because they think they're going to upset me or something.
Secondly, I have been in your shoes. I'm not sure how many of my posts you have read, I know I have a lot of them, and I don't know what all got carried over and got lost in our software transition, but I was a devout Christian for a very long time. I was an Oneness Pentecostal for 12 years (if you're not familiar with that term, it's a branch of fundamentalist Christianity), and I spent my last year as a Methodist. I understand your perspective very well and it used to make sense to me. It doesn't make sense to me anymore, and I no longer see it as true. As said earlier, I care very little of what people think of me, so you can have whatever opinion of me that you wish based on this information, but just so that you're aware, this was not a decision I made quickly, but one that was made after much reading and deep thought.

Christians are supposed to aim to be like Christ. Being like Christ means being loving. So, I understand where the friendship and love vibes are coming from, but is it loving to watch someone die without at least trying to help? To answer my own question, and to circle back to my original post, I think the best I can do is just share my beliefs and not become obsessed with "saving" people. So, in contradiction to mostly everything I've said so far, wanna be friends? Lol.

It can be loving to watch someone die without trying to help. It just depends on the situation. Either way, you seem pretty level headed, so barring you going off the deep end in future posts, just be cool and maybe we'll be friends.

Also, I was originally going to make this a single block response before responding to your post, and I feel cheated that I didn't get to use this smilie, so I'm just going to use it anyway

[K. Ayato]

To the OP: Further discussion between you and Xeno should best continue via PM.

On the subject, yes, it can be extremely frustrating to encounter people (not necessarily atheists) who hold their negative view of Christianity and its followers in a tight grip and refuse to think otherwise. As has been said, we're not called to debate anyone/anything that goes against our beliefs. Yes, I believe there are times we have to make a firm stand for our convictions. But when you do speak the truth, remember to speak it in a spirit of love. That means you don't return any venom someone gives you with a dose of your own, and that even if you still disagree, you and the other person can part at the end of the day knowing you still care and show respect to a fellow human being.

I get the vibe that you're a person who loves to look for a defensive argument, and furthermore, loves to win each time. Newsflash: You're not always going to win. An atheist--let alone someone who simply doesn't believe in God--isn't going to care how strong your argument for Christianity is if your heart and motives reflect that you don't care about him/her as a person.

I have friends and family members that I get along with fairly well, but when comes to faith and occasional theology, our views can be entirely different. And that's okay. One member of my family believes in a completely different faith altogether. He's shared the overview with me, and I still don't quite understand it. Even so, I respect who he is and appreciate that he wasn't afraid to share what he believes in, even if it wasn't the same as my own beliefs. On that note, I've shared what I believe with him as well. But here's the big difference between how I've shared and how your posts appear to be: I don't tell him that what he believes in is wrong. Granted, I let him (and others I've encountered) know in a respectful manner that I don't agree or understand. But as soon as I say "Hey, you're wrong for believing that", I've now killed any rapport that was being established and any further statements about being a friend or someone they can trust has now gone out the window.

Bottom line: It's okay to have strong beliefs and opinions, and to stand firm on them when challenged. Just keep in mind that Jesus called His followers to share the good news of what He's done for them, NOT to debate with anyone whose views may be entirely contrary.

[Sheenar]

Yes, we are called to share our faith, but do it in a spirit and manner of love and respect. People are people --not projects to be "fixed". I've found from talking with others that it turns people off from wanting anything to do with Christianity if people befriend them or talk to them only to try to convince them to convert --without any desire for a meaningful friendship with that person or desire to do life with them. Share your faith --but do it respectfully. Don't force the subject if the other person does not wish to talk about it.
Look how Jesus interacted with people --he sat and had dinner with the societal outcasts and sinners of His day. He shared God's truth and word --and did it with great love for the people as individuals. He met their physical needs. He walked alongside them. He grieved with those who were grieving.
Think about what kind of picture of Christ you are painting for others. It's something to keep in mind, anyway, as you interact with others online and in person.

[amplifiez]

@SmartyPants: None taken, and fair enough. The extent of my philosophical knowledge is limited to an intro class I took a few years ago, so I have a lot of reading to do before I can even decide whether I agree or disagree with you. In general, I find Apologetics fascinating. An article I read about nanoscience in Genesis is what made me start to take Christianity seriously. And I've heard of Nietzsche, and know he's pretty famous, but I haven't delved into any of his writings. I'll check out some of the other philosophers you mentioned, along with him. Chances are once I pick up a heavyweight philosophy book, I'll need a dictionary by my side to get through the jargon haha. When the time comes, I'll shoot you a PM, if you don't mind helping me out a tad, since you do seem to know your stuff.

@Xeno: Oh man, those Westboro people are downright insane. I had to laugh while watching their documentary, since if I took them seriously, I'd probably lose my sanity. And you're right about YouTube users, but curiosity gets the best of me every time.

And I wouldn't say you're going to Hell. No one on this planet has the right to say that to anyone. I'd feel like a cardboard sign-waving hypocrite on the roadside (AKA a Westboro Baptist) if I told someone that. We're told not to judge others, lest we be judged in the same way. I don't even entirely have an opinion on Hell. Many Christians don't even believe in it. Nonetheless, I do believe that the only way to be saved is to accept Christ. Am I contradicting myself? It wouldn't be the first time. Either way, what happens to those who aren't saved (hopefully) isn't my business. I suppose what's awaiting them is hardly a punishment in their eyes though, since it's what they expect: nothingness and nonexistence. One thing I am sure of is that Christians shouldn't try to scare others into believing with flames and the threat of being poked with pointy red pitchforks for all eternity. To add to the aforementioned irony, chances are you've spent more time as a Christian than I have, which gives me even less room to criticize you.

In my eyes, we're both in the same line leading up to the court stand. The only difference is that I have a good lawyer, yet you're representing yourself. But that doesn't mean I'm going to turn around and condemn you. If I did, I might turn back around to see that my lawyer is nowhere to be found. And speaking of courts, watching someone die without trying to help is more or less a crime. Thank you for the compliment, by the way, and right back at you. Admittedly, or more accurately - obviously, my head is more often scrambled than leveled, though. Haha. And I'll stick to the shallow end, so no worries. Feel free to let me know if I ever cross the line.

@K.Avato: Your vibe is right on the mark, and newsflash noted. But being defensive isn't necessarily a bad thing. Not to be a stickler, but the first and foremost definition of the word "defensive" is:

1. serving to defend; protective.

The fifth string definition is more to the tone of how you're defining it:

5. excessively concerned with guarding against the real or imagined threat of criticism, injury to one's ego, or exposure of one's shortcomings.

Some antonyms are: unprotective, unwary, unwatchful, etc.
None of them sound very appetizing.

I cited a verse below that says to be prepared to make a defense when challenged. And I do enjoy winning arguments, as opposed to losing them. I think generally everyone does. However, I will concede that I do sometimes go looking for trouble, but I'm usually careful about not being too blunt, unless it's called for. Sometimes being straightforward isn't all that bad. The idiom "beating around the bush" is usually used to describe someone's behavior as irritating, after all. (Which I hope I'm not being now.) I see where you're coming from, or maybe I'm missing the point, but I do mostly agree, although I don't think it's some gigantic secret that Christians think they're right, and that everyone else is wrong. I think we have to be careful of complacency, as much as we should be wary of being overbearing. However, we're supposed to follow Jesus' example, and he did debate with the Pharisees often.

Overall, I think this verse sums it up:
"But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect." (1 Peter 3:15)

[Vilo159]

First of, I gotta say that this thread is awesome. These responses are some of the best I've seen from everyone involved, it's fantastic. It's been very helpful. Amplifiez, I think you're gonna fit in just fine here!

I don't have that much to contribute, other than to just agree with what's been said. I've definitely been in your position, and it took me a while to learn the things in this thread. I'm still working on speaking with a spirit of love; I get defensive really quickly, and it never turns out well. The greatest piece of advice I can give is to double what K. Ayato said about not telling people they're wrong. You can still tell people about your beliefs, and encourage them to learn more about them, without telling people what they believe is incorrect. You are free to believe that yourself, you can make them aware that you don't necessarily agree with his beliefs, and with some people, very rarely, you can even tell them respectfully that you believe they're wrong, but for the most part announcing it is just going to ruin things. Because as much as you believe you they are wrong, they believe they are right, so it won't make any difference on them other than to make you lose a bit of credibility.

[Xeno]

And speaking of courts, watching someone die without trying to help is more or less a crime.

I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say, so I'll be a bit more specific.
I'm an emergency services dispatcher, so I'm aware that if you see someone bleeding out on the side of the street that you are legally obligated to at least call for emergency services to try to get that person help. That's not what I was talking about. What I was getting at is if you have a loved one who is dying, and you and they know they are dying, and they are suffering and they don't want to live anymore, sometimes it's the more loving thing to just allow them to go instead of forcing them to keep on living in whatever kind of condition(s) it is they are in. Totally different situation here.

First of, I gotta say that this thread is awesome. These responses are some of the best I've seen from everyone involved, it's fantastic. It's been very helpful. Amplifiez, I think you're gonna fit in just fine here!

I don't have that much to contribute, other than to just agree with what's been said. I've definitely been in your position, and it took me a while to learn the things in this thread. I'm still working on speaking with a spirit of love; I get defensive really quickly, and it never turns out well. The greatest piece of advice I can give is to double what K. Ayato said about not telling people they're wrong. You can still tell people about your beliefs, and encourage them to learn more about them, without telling people what they believe is incorrect. You are free to believe that yourself, you can make them aware that you don't necessarily agree with his beliefs, and with some people, very rarely, you can even tell them respectfully that you believe they're wrong, but for the most part announcing it is just going to ruin things. Because as much as you believe you they are wrong, they believe they are right, so it won't make any difference on them other than to make you lose a bit of credibility.

It would be good if people would be willing to learn from others as well. Not necessarily be willing to adopt the beliefs and views of every person they talk to, because I certainly don't expect everyone on here to be all , but we can all learn things from each other if we're generally respectful of one another and speak intelligently to each other.

[amplifiez]

@Vilo: Haha thanks, I hope you're right. I agree with you and Ayato. Instead of saying "you're wrong" right off the bat, saying "I disagree with you, and here's why" or "here's what I think" can be a lot more effective. And I can be really defensive, too; as demonstrated in my response to Ayato on the subject of being defensive. Lol. Freud would say that's why I picked Blastoise as my starter in Pokemon Red when I was 7 haha.

@Xeno: Wow, not sure how that went right over my head. I see what you mean now. That sounds like an awesome job, by the way. I thought of being an EMT or a paramedic for a while, but to be honest, I found it way more stressful than any other job in the medical field short of being a surgeon, yet equally as rewarding. I didn't think I could handle the pressure, though. I tend to faint in stressful situations (aboard my first flight, in a sparring match, after getting blood taken... Just to name an embarrassing few instances.). I doubt anyone on here would want their life to be in the hands of someone on the verge of passing out lol. Not to mention that they're not paid even half of what they deserve, which is completely unfair.

[K. Ayato]

Even if you say "I disagree and here's why", it can still come off as antagonistic. I get the feeling that agreeing to disagree and move onto another topic entirely is something you are not willing to do in those situations.

As I shared earlier, I have friends and family whom I can get into heated arguments about until both sides are exhausted and blue in the face. And it's not always about theology or Christian living. Sometimes it's about music, TV shows and other things of interest. Even if I did win the argument, what other gain is there in that? Not exactly a win-win ending, where both sides are happy and no damage has been afflicted.

That being said, you should strive for a win-win approach, and not be so caught up in the "mission" of debating and debunking anyone who shares different beliefs. You mentioned that Jesus debated with the religious leaders. True, but that was NOT His purpose for being on this earth for 3-3.5 years. If you look carefully, THEY challenged HIM. And the reason He did argue was due to the fact that they claimed to be experts in the Law, yet ignored so much and elevated TRADITION to the same level or even higher than the Law itself. That was why Jesus had to speak out against them when they approached Him.

[amplifiez]

@K.Ayato: Well, I've definitely not argued to the point of changing into a Smurf; and I certainly wouldn't on the topic of music or television shows... What you're saying is that it was okay for Jesus to defend himself against the Pharisees, who claimed to be experts, but that it's not okay for Christians to likewise defend themselves against people who claim to be experts by saying there is no God? I don't get it. Jesus wasn't exactly concerned with being careful not to upset the Pharisees. Maybe the idea you're onto is that the whole notion of "winning" is what's wrong.

[K. Ayato]

I'm saying you shouldn't be going out to pick an intellectual fight.

[Ante Bellum]

I can't take this thread seriously. It's like you're just constantly looking for a fight.

[goldenspines]

....and things were going so well.

It may be best for you all to take your individual discussions to PM for the time being unless someone new has anything to add.

[Zeldafan2]

My two cents:

I mostly agree with what's been put on here by Xeno and K. Ayato already, but I think there needs to be some clarification.

There's a difference between evangelizing (trying to bring someone to Christ by explaining to them about Christianity) and debating theology (arguing with someone over what you believe, or feel about an issue.) The former is generally done in a calm, casual manner which isn't overshadowed by contempt or anger, while the latter is mostly just angry people yelling at each other, and the only result from the conversation being angry feelings between people.

There is definitely a time for evangelizing, but all debating with someone about things tends to do is cause strife and chaos among people who know each other (or sometimes those who don't.) There really isn't a point in it at all. While evangelizing involves trying to bring someone to Christ by sharing testimonies, or knowledge of the Bible, debating is an angry, heated conversation between two people which, as I said earlier, doesn't usually go anywhere good, or positive.

Very very rarely will someone concede the others point in a conversation, because most people by nature are very passionate about what they believe. Now, that's not to say all talk about two opposite issues on a subject is pointless, I believe there is a such thing as 'discussion' which involves a calm consideration between two people about each other's beliefs so they can truly understand each other. This, I believe, is very different from previously mentioned debate.

But to answer the question, a lot of people who surf the web are trolls who are just looking for a fight. If someone's just randomly throwing bumper sticker slogans, or making bold, hate-filled statements, they aren't worth talking with. But if someone is trying to calmly discuss how they feel, or giving you a keen, in depth perception on their own beliefs on a certain subject, you can either respond with a similar talk, or move on to another subject. I've seen in my experience that sometimes, its really not worth it to discuss some things if all its really going to do is make each instigator angry. In that case, its better to move on to another subject.

[ClaecElric4God]

Well, everybody's basically summed it up, but I'd like to throw in my thoughts.

How do I deal with unbelievers online? I hunt them down and clobber them over the head! Just kidding, just kidding. I would never do that.
Nobody wants to be dealt with. They're not a plague that needs to be eradicated from the face of the earth. I'll admit, I've had arguments with atheists online, but it was always either because they were a pig-headed jerk or because I crossed the line and antagonized them. Yeah, unbelievers can be hostile toward Christians, but Christians can be just as bad. I'd like to think those of us who are real Christians aren't, but there are plenty of jerks out their trying to pick a fight, on both sides.
And it doesn't just pertain to religion. I work at a dog grooming salon/boarding kennel, and you wouldn't believe how nasty people can be because Fluffy didn't eat all 3000 lbs of treats they brought for him, or Spot didn't get all the hair trimmed out of his pads. Let me tell you, dog people are scary. And have you ever read a Bleach vs. Naruto argument on Youtube? I feel like my life is in danger just by reading the comments.
Atheist, agnostics, unbelievers in general, all have one thing in common: they're all people (unless there was an alien invasion I wasn't informed of). You don't have to make a choice to either put huge effort into converting them and constantly hound them with arguments and Christian evidence, or reject them entirely and avoid them as thoroughly as you can. They aren't science experiments to either study and test or give up on because they're beyond your level of capability. It's not a taboo to coexist with unbelievers without getting in an argument every time you meet up with them. Yeah, I think it's important to make sure people know you're a Christian, and have a Christian testimony; but that doesn't necessarily mean showering them with Bible verses every time you see them. Just act like yourself around them. Don't see them as the enemy. See them as themselves. Get to know them. Xeno's a police dispatcher who probably has plenty of stories to tell; Ante Bellum likes plague doctors. If they don't want to talk about Christian stuff, don't bother them about it. If the person you run across on the internet wants to have a theological discussion, and you think you can both keep level heads and see each other's side of it, go for it. If someone says something dumb that's obviously antagonistic or trollish, ignore them. They're not worth your time, and considering how hard it is to convey your thoughts accurately through writing, you'll probably just end up hurting your testimony. People will be people, regardless of what they believe.
So I don't think the issue is dealing with them. I mean, obviously, I want them to come around to my way of thinking and agree with me whole-heartedly, but who doesn't? I also want my customers to realize that shih tzus aren't really dogs, but defective experiments made by a deranged scientist, and somehow leaked into the real world. I'm learning to understand their side of it and just treat them like people. I think that's all they really want. And I want to be able to be around them and see them as friends, or in the very least allies in the event of a zombie apocalypse. There's no reason to declare war on people who don't agree with you.

[amplifiez]

@K.Ayato: Yeah, I am guilty of doing that sometimes. Apparently I offended Ante Bellum somehow. My best guess at how is that I may have come off as rude towards you, so my bad. At least we can agree that the Pharisees were a-holes. Lol. Actually, I think we mainly agree but I just overthought things. It's a bad habit of mine. Thanks for all the input, though. See you around.

@Ante Bellum: It sounds like you're actually taking it too seriously. I didn't mean to spice up the chili so much, so my fault.

@ClaecElric4God: Haha, the only thing worse than a Bleach vs Naruto argument is an Xbox vs PS3 fanboy argument. I agree with what you said about it not being "taboo to coexist with unbelievers without getting in an argument every time you meet up with them." Another thing you said that really resonated with me was how "There's no reason to declare war on people who don't agree with you." For whatever reason, what you said really brought me some clarity, so thanks.

Thanks to everyone for the awesome comments. I didn't expect it to, but my perspective changed a lot.

[Ante Bellum]

Apparently I offended Ante Bellum somehow.
. . . .
@Ante Bellum: It sounds like you're actually taking it too seriously. I didn't mean to spice up the chili so much, so my fault.

Are you for real?

[MomentOfInertia]

Assassins. Legions of assassins. Legions of tech-savvy, modem-slaying assassins. With guns. Flitting through the night, removing those annoying non-believers from my internet.

[Nate]

we'd lose our free will

>implying we have free will

[rocklobster]

amplifiez, here's something to consider:
Big Bang Theory: Catholic priest postulated it.
Pasteurization: also Christian
there are more believers in science than you think. Richard "God of jerks" Dawkins just makes it seem otherwise. In fact a big chunk of nobel prize-winning scientists are believers.