Whose way is better -- yours or God's?

Talk about anything in here.

Postby Warrior4Christ » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:44 am

Mr. SmartyPants (post: 1453911) wrote:I don't believe either answer is right. People have a mentality that "If I follow God's plan I will be happy!" I don't believe this is right at all. God may lead us to happiness, but he also may lead us to despair. Reasons for which nobody may know.

No, but it may well lead to joy and contentment despite circumstances (as Paul had experienced).

Mr. SmartyPants (post: 1453911) wrote:I'm not sure what's better or not, but I can say which I believe is more righteous. And doing what is righteous may very well likely have no payoff. But if we care/hope/expect about some sort of payoff or blessing than we've lost all semblance of righteousness because we've become selfish.

Well, of course it has the ultimate payoff in being with Jesus in heaven.
Everywhere like such as, and MOES.

"Expect great things from God; attempt great things for God." - William Carey
User avatar
Warrior4Christ
 
Posts: 2045
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 8:10 pm
Location: Carefully place an additional prawn on the barbecue

Postby Nate » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:48 am

Warrior4Christ wrote:No, but it may well lead to joy and contentment despite circumstances (as Paul had experienced).

Yes, but mental illness and mind-altering substances can also lead to joy and contentment despite circumstances so I don't think this is a very good argument in favor of following God.
Well, of course it has the ultimate payoff in being with Jesus in heaven.

I...don't like this statement at all. While that's true, I think if you've fallen into the mindset of "ultimate payoffs" or rewards of any kind, whether in this world or the next, you're entirely missing the point of Christianity. In fact I'd say it's even dangerous to think such things, reducing Christianity to a sort of "afterlife insurance" or something...
Image

Ezekiel 23:20
User avatar
Nate
 
Posts: 10725
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Oh right, like anyone actually cares.

Postby Warrior4Christ » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:55 am

Nate (post: 1454075) wrote:Yes, but mental illness and mind-altering substances can also lead to joy and contentment despite circumstances so I don't think this is a very good argument in favor of following God.

Um... I don't consider that a very strong argument. Your brain's smart enough to work out what's fake and what's real in the long run... (even if it's just the after effects).

Nate (post: 1454075) wrote:I...don't like this statement at all. While that's true, I think if you've fallen into the mindset of "ultimate payoffs" or rewards of any kind, whether in this world or the next, you're entirely missing the point of Christianity. In fact I'd say it's even dangerous to think such things, reducing Christianity to a sort of "afterlife insurance" or something...

I disagree with your disagreement. It's a balance. One must be aware that "oh, I'm only really loving you because Jesus told me to, and I have to do what Jesus says to get into heaven" is not the right motivation, but I'd say it's proper for Christians to look forward to heaven. If you're in a country where persecution of Christians is common and you've been put in jail and tortured, you'd obviously looks forward to heaven where there'd be no more suffering, and there'd be eternal rest. That's a reward worth looking forward to.
Everywhere like such as, and MOES.

"Expect great things from God; attempt great things for God." - William Carey
User avatar
Warrior4Christ
 
Posts: 2045
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 8:10 pm
Location: Carefully place an additional prawn on the barbecue

Postby Nate » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:05 am

Warrior4Christ wrote:Um... I don't consider that a very strong argument. Your brain's smart enough to work out what's fake and what's real in the long run... (even if it's just the after effects).

No, it isn't. Talk to people who have had bad acid trips. Your brain gets messed up on mind-altering substances and it can't tell the difference. That's why people who have bad acid trips won't touch the stuff again afterwards. If the brain was really that good at working out what was fake, they'd just go "Oh it was a bad trip, it wasn't real so it's fine."

Besides, if the brain was smart enough to work out the difference between fake/real, explain optical illusions. You can even know "This is an optical illusion" and your brain will still not let you see it correctly. You're completely overestimating how the brain works.
I'd say it's proper for Christians to look forward to heaven.

I would disagree, based solely on the fact that if you're too focused on Heaven you can't help people on earth. I think this has actually happened in most of the modern world, actually. We're too focused on evangelism and "bringing souls to Christ" to actually feed or take care of people's physical needs. When Jesus preaches to the crowds He doesn't say God looks to the people at His right hand and says "Well done my good and faithful servants you preached to lots of people." No He says "Well done my good and faithful servants you fed the hungry and clothed the naked and helped the sick."

A good deed is its own reward.
If you're in a country where persecution of Christians is common and you've been put in jail and tortured, you'd obviously looks forward to heaven where there'd be no more suffering, and there'd be eternal rest. That's a reward worth looking forward to.

I can get behind this, to a degree, what I'm saying is Ryan said "If you look forward to a payoff or blessing you're doing this wrong" and your response was "Well the ultimate payoff is being in Heaven!" Which...only further proves Ryan correct as far as I'm concerned. XD But the problem is when you say "The payoff is being in Heaven," then you're implying well, if Heaven doesn't exist and God isn't real, there's no payoff to helping others and loving them and being kind. That's why Ryan says you're doing it wrong.

The ultimate payoff isn't being in Heaven. The ultimate payoff is that you're helping someone. Again, a good deed is its own reward. If this world was the only thing that there was, and there was no Heaven, you should still do good deeds, that's Ryan's point. There should never be a "The payoff for doing good is getting to Heaven" because that's completely wrong.
Image

Ezekiel 23:20
User avatar
Nate
 
Posts: 10725
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Oh right, like anyone actually cares.

Postby Shao Feng-Li » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:38 am

When you consider that we can do nothing but the Lord's will and that His way leads us to Heaven and our own leads to Hell...

First answer.
User avatar
Shao Feng-Li
 
Posts: 5187
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2003 12:00 pm
Location: Idaho

Postby Radical Dreamer » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:50 am

Nate (post: 1454075) wrote:Yes, but mental illness and mind-altering substances can also lead to joy and contentment despite circumstances so I don't think this is a very good argument in favor of following God.


I really hope this is a joke. XD You can't possibly say that a drug-induced euphoria is even close to the joy and contentment that comes from rejoicing in God's grace in all circumstances. Because let's be real here, being joyful and content in Christ despite all circumstances doesn't come with a hangover or the crash that comes after the drugs stop working.

Please be joking. XD
[color="DeepSkyBlue"]4 8 15 16 23[/color] 42
[color="PaleGreen"]Rushia: YOU ARE MY FAVORITE IGNORANT AMERICAN OF IRISH DECENT. I LOVE YOU AND YOUR POTATOES.[/color]
[color="Orange"]WELCOME TO MOES[/color]

Image

User avatar
Radical Dreamer
 
Posts: 7950
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 9:00 am
Location: Some place where I can think up witty things to say under the "Location" category.

Postby Nate » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:22 pm

Radical Dreamer wrote:Please be joking. XD

I was sort of, because you're right that those effects don't last for very long. However it's also true that joy and happiness don't last forever even if you follow God...look in the prayer room for the multitudes of people asking for prayer because they're hurting or depressed or lost.

But even so, let's then say that someone who's a Buddhist finds happiness and joy as well. That's not God's way, now is it? What about someone who's Hindu and has joy and happiness? Sure, it will not save them, but if the argument you're going to make is "God's way is better because it brings you joy and happiness" then what about those who don't follow God's way and have joy and happiness? Maybe even more joy and happiness than those who do follow God's way?

Again, that won't save them, I admit. But when you say "Following God brings you contentment" that has nothing to do with salvation, and ignores the people who do things that may be completely opposed to God and have joy and contentment, perhaps even more than those who follow God.

So it's still not a good argument.
Image

Ezekiel 23:20
User avatar
Nate
 
Posts: 10725
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Oh right, like anyone actually cares.

Postby bkilbour » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:07 pm

Okay, so yes, I confess that God's way is better in all things, and He has commanded us to take up our crosses and follow Him.
If one were to see the "way" as in a way of life, making decisions, and tenets to believe in, then there is no reason to follow after my own ways when I know that they are uneducated and extremely unwise compared to those of the LORD.

I didn't always think that way... Let's see, I used to be an anarchist, was into ninjitsu, got into occultic subjects, and developed a pornography addiction. All I ever did with those things was hurt people, delude myself, damage my soul, and turn myself into a hateful little creature. Was I happy? um... sometimes. Most of the time, I was miserable, and the closest thing I ever really came to real happiness was excitement or sadistic glee.
When I found Christ, things got harder, to be sure, and I came across various struggles, but for the first time in my life I felt happy about who I am and where I'm going. I still fail from time to time in the calling I have been given - who doesn't? But that doesn't mean that, somehow, God's way is inferior to my default methods.

Some would argue that, because we can never achieve the perfection that God has, we cannot say that our way is inferior - because, after all, our way is more achievable. However, I challenge such an opinion with what Paul says in Phillippians;

"Indeed, I count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me." (Philippians 3;8-12)

I ascribe to what he said.
Hebrews 12
John 14
Matthew 6
Psalm 119
May God be glorified!
User avatar
bkilbour
 
Posts: 327
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:33 pm
Location: Bangor, WA

Postby Furen » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:55 pm

My take is you may feel that your way is better, but in the long run God's way will prevail most prominently.
And this I pray, that your love would abound still, more and more with real knowledge and all discernment. Be prepared to preach the gospel at a moment's notice. Do you know the gospel well enough to do so yourself? Be ready.
User avatar
Furen
 
Posts: 2695
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:39 pm
Location: Mostly at my PC, but meh, I can be wherever.

Postby Rusty Claymore » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:33 pm

I think we make a mistake by looking at Man and saying, "God's way obviously doesn't bring joy, contentment, and happiness."
Psalms 112 is a description of what it's like when we do things God's way.
As for people who are "opposed to God, but experiencing joy and contentment," I don't believe that argument stands. Yeah, they may be thinking they are on top of the world, but their happiness is temporary. The same temporary happiness is experienced by Christians as well.

Defining God's way vs. Mans way in a exclusive sense, (that one way by definition is opposed to the other) there is no argument. Although in any sense, I personally believe any acclaimation that God's way (the way God choses for things to be done) is not the absolute best is foolishness. It would also beg the question, "Who is this God person anyway?" for anyone who thinks that God doesn't know best has a rather underated view of God.
Proverbs 31:32 "...when she watches anime, she keeps the room well lit and sits at a safe distance."
User avatar
Rusty Claymore
 
Posts: 1258
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:18 pm
Location: Alaska

Postby TopazRaven » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:49 pm

Hm, in a way though, God's way isn't the same for every person either. He has a future set for all of us and no two are the same, right? If we are trying our best to follow the teachings of Jesus then isn't that God's way? Isn't this something we all should strive for? I'll be the first to admit I definitly have a lot of work to do in this category, but I imagine it's good that I relalize I need to change. It's not easy, but I am trying.
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

NIV, Romans 8:38-39.
User avatar
TopazRaven
 
Posts: 2186
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:51 pm
Location: Somewhere in Pennsylvania.

Postby bkilbour » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:18 pm

@rusty claymore, dude, there's no better way to put it than you did. Hooyah, brother!

@Topaz, I agree. Though God may have different plans for individuals, we should still try our best to obey, honor Him and strive to be like Him.
And I'm proud of you; I'm doing my best as well to fix myself when it comes to God.
Hebrews 12
John 14
Matthew 6
Psalm 119
May God be glorified!
User avatar
bkilbour
 
Posts: 327
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:33 pm
Location: Bangor, WA

Postby KeybladeWarrior » Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:13 am

The answer is completely obvious. I do have to say that following God's Way is not something that I have done very well.
@)}~`,~ Carry This Rose In Your Sig, As Thanks, To All
The CAA Moderators.

"YEAH TOAST! TOCAA!"
User avatar
KeybladeWarrior
 
Posts: 1176
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:04 pm

Postby Nate » Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:24 am

Rusty Claymore wrote:I think we make a mistake by looking at Man and saying, "God's way obviously doesn't bring joy, contentment, and happiness."

I think you misunderstood what I said. XD I wasn't saying everyone will be miserable when following God or anything to that effect. What I'm saying is, we're not always going to be happy. God isn't going to make us joyous or content or happy or anything all the time. Maybe not even most of the time. Like I said, look in the Prayer Room. See how many requests say that they're lost, confused, hurting, depressed...there's a lot of them. We're not always going to be happy. In fact, times or hurt and sorrow are when a lot of people turn from God. "How could a God who loves me possibly allow this kind of thing to happen to me?" is an oft-repeated phrase.

I'm not saying God's way doesn't bring joy or contentment. What I said was it doesn't bring us that 24 hours a day 365.25 days a year.
As for people who are "opposed to God, but experiencing joy and contentment," I don't believe that argument stands. Yeah, they may be thinking they are on top of the world, but their happiness is temporary. The same temporary happiness is experienced by Christians as well.

Right, exactly. So what I'm saying is that "God's way will bring you joy and contentment" isn't a good argument for following God, not at all. There are many Christians who are hurting and in pain and being fairly miserable, and there are many non-Christians who are doing pretty well and fairly happy. Now as you said, neither of these is a permanent state, obviously, but the point still stands.

We can say that God's way is better for us and that is absolutely true. But things that are good for you aren't always pleasant. So being better is distinct from being pleasant. God's way isn't always pleasant. In fact, sometimes it's downright UNpleasant.

This is why I said (and am still saying) that "Following God brings you happiness" is an extremely poor and incorrect statement.
Image

Ezekiel 23:20
User avatar
Nate
 
Posts: 10725
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Oh right, like anyone actually cares.

Postby Shao Feng-Li » Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:28 am

That's right. Presbyterian martyrs weren't exactly comfortable while being burned at the stake. But, God's first concern isn't our carnal comfort. Following God does bring happiness when you remember that there's Heaven.

(Not to say that taking care of people's physical needs isn't a ministry.)
User avatar
Shao Feng-Li
 
Posts: 5187
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2003 12:00 pm
Location: Idaho

God’s way is better in every possible way

Postby kairo14 » Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:54 pm

The Scriptures say, [Proverbs 1:20], “Wisdom calls aloud outside; She raises her voice in the open squares”, and what does She say, “lean not on your own understanding, and Do not be wise in your own eyes (3:5,7)”, but instead, “seek Her as silver and search for Her as for hidden treasure(2:4)”, for “The Lord gives wisdom(2:6).”

And so the Wise Preacher says concerning this whole issue of which way is better, “Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man’s all. For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good for evil.” [Ecclesiastes 12:13-14]

Well, what is God’s commandment about where to get wisdom? From us? Surely not for the Scripture say, For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent." Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For the world through wisdom did not know God, [1 Corinthians 1:19-21].”

But this rather a big problem if pleasure is on the line. For Psalms 16 says it is not in man’s way or presence but in God’s where there is infinite and unending joy and intimate pleasures. Indeed, it is stupid to think yourself wise and on the better way by doping yourself up with drugs and alcohol (and meth and acid and (etc)), for the LORD will judge this, yes, “Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, Woe to men mighty at drinking wine, Woe to men valiant for mixing intoxicating drink, ; He has stretched out His hand against them And stricken them, And the hills trembled. Their carcasses were as refuse in the midst of the streets. For all this His anger is not turned away, But His hand is stretched out still,” Isaiah 53:20-25].

Yet, I will show you a better way, “a more excellent way”, for “Love thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; Love never fails,” [1 Corinthians 12:13; 13:3,6-8].

But if Love never fails, then it must be a better and more excellent way, but Love “rejoices in the truth.” And the truth concerning the better way of wisdom is that Jesus Christ is not only is our propitiation and expiation and imputed righteous in His substitutionary death for us but also is our "wisdom", for us. [1 Corinthians 1:30-31] “You are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God -- and righteousness and sanctification and redemption-- that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the LORD." Jesus is our wisdom as He gives us His Word and Spirit to lead us, for “in [Him] are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.”

We must repent of our self-confidence and self-confident of our better way, for Proverbs 14:16, “A fool is self-confident." The scriptures gives us the opposite. All men are seeking happiness and real enjoyment of life. Their problem is that they have confidence they have the power and wisdom to accomplish this themselves. This is sad because in reality men do not have this potential. Only the true God has the ability to give real enjoyment, which is the giving of Himself to man to enjoy, and in Christ it is in an infinite degree. By this I mean God personally gives Himself for us to enjoy: His infinite beauty and Glory; this was Jesus’ prayer in John 17:24. The only means to start and sustain communion with God Almighty is at the cross of Jesus Christ where we behold the Lord of the Universe dying for our sins and rising victoriously on the 3rd day. Our confidence for true fellowship with the Lord Jesus Christ is a confidence in His free mercy to forgive all our sins and free love to walk with us every step of the day. Our confidence is that His blood purchased all we need to come to our Father free from the guilt of sin so that we may trust, know, fellowship and worship Him in satisfying admiration every hour.

Philippians 1:6, "[Be] [U]confident [/U]of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ." Although Paul is addressing all sorts of people with all sorts of God-given talents and abilities, he says that his confidence is not in any of these people and their potential; his confidence instead is only in Christ Jesus, that with all His Power, Grace, and Mercy, He will be faithful to "work" in these people a full sanctification and salvation. Paul's confidence is that God has the power to change a sinner's destiny; he has no confidence that these people have this potential. 2 Thessalonians 3:4, "And we have confidence in the Lord concerning you, both that you do and will do the things we command you." Where does your "believing in" truly rest? Ephesians 2:1, 12, states that we are "dead in sins," "having no hope." Furthermore, Romans 3:12, considers our condition as "unprofitable." To be "unprofitable" and "dead in sins" mean you are dead toward God and His Son, and "having no hope" means we do not have the abilities to change our destinies. In fact in, Matthew 19:26, Jesus Himself has this to say about our ability to change our destinies for the better in regards of eternal joy and eternal salvation: "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

God’s way is better in every possible way, in every possible time, and in every possible degree, and in every possible type. And this glory only belongs to God, in this God is seen as utterly different, as a cut-above ad-infinitum, as Holy--as it were.
ImageImage
[font="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]www.osheadavis.com / "MOES: Go, and scroll no more." [/SIZE]
[SIZE="3"]Dragonballz rocks, and, Jesus Saves / Naruto does multi-clone no jutsu,, but,, Jesus gives new-birth no jutsu[/SIZE][/font]
User avatar
kairo14
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:25 pm
Location: jax beach FL

Postby J.D3 » Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:30 pm

goldenspines (post: 1453702) wrote:Not positive how this can be discussed, but I'm sure someone will find a way.

My own view is that God's way is always the best (being called only "better" in comparison to my own way is downgrading Him, I think). Though, because we aren't perfect, we are not capable of always following God's way all the time. Does this mean we shouldn't try? Not at all. But we shouldn't try to live by coming up with our own interpretation of what God's way is or "What would Jesus do?" but rather seeking, trusting in and loving God/Jesus, then asking Him to show us what his way for us is.

Just my two cents though. >_>


I agree, God's way is 'best'! I can only speak from experience in this matter, but I've found time and time again that following my 'own way' (or worse, attempting to follow other people's ways and passing them off to myself as my own choices!) does not really work, and have only really made any sort of progress in my life by pursuing God & trying as best as one can to leave my own desires and machinations behind. Will I always succeed? Heck no! But does God's grace allow for that? Heck yes, & then some!

Nate (post: 1453820) wrote:I voted the second option because it says "My own may" so I took that to mean May from Pokemon and I want one of those.


ROFL-COPTER!!! :thumbsup: :lol:
Mack: Did I hear God call me an idiot?
God: *shrugs* If the shoe fits, honey. Yes sir, if the shoe fits...
The Shack, William P. Young


User avatar
J.D3
 
Posts: 131
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:05 am
Location: I come from a land somewhat down under

Previous

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 296 guests