Do you consider or call yourself an otaku? Why or why not?

The real heart of CAA; discuss specific series, issues, and things related to anime here.

Postby blkmage » Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:43 pm

CrimsonRyu17 (post: 1348744) wrote:Where do you think weeaboo started? It came from all these anime fans, calling themselves "otakus" instead of just "anime fans", and acting like they're soooo interested in the culture and they know soooo much about Japan but they're actually just obsessed with anime.

On the etymology of weeaboo: I wonder how many people are familiar with weeaboo before it became associated with Japanophiles. The term weeaboo comes from Perry Bible Fellowship, a webcomic. The strip that the term comes from has nothing to do with any of this (Did someone say weeaboo?). The actual term that describes the "otaku" that you describe was wapanese. It's not hard to see how the word was constructed. Weeaboo replaced wapanese in wordfilters for that imageboard. And of course, that caught on and is now in your lexicon.


I have no idea how you came up with that conclusion. You're actually got it flipped. Japanese "Otaku" just means "fan". I ALREADY informed you about this and you ignore my post. Do you even read it?


That's because that isn't entirely true. There is a negative connotation in Japanese, much like nerd or geek in English. Saying otaku just means fan is like saying Trekkie is just someone who really likes Star Trek. That may be technically true, but it's more about the degree to which someone really likes something (i.e., not normal).
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Postby Radical Dreamer » Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:44 pm

goldenspines (post: 1348751) wrote:But yes, people, please keep it nice in here, don't make me lock this.


This, please. This thread is getting really out of hand really quickly. Calm down before we have to lock it to remind you that other opinions on things exist, and that that's okay.
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Postby Tsukuyomi » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:07 pm

Dictionary.com

Otaku
- 1 dictionary result
Main Entry: otaku
Part of Speech: n
Definition: an avid collector or enthusiast, esp. one who is obsessed anime, video games, or computer and rarely leaves home
Etymology: Japanese 'house'
Usage:derogatory slang


I think people are referring to that, Yamamaya ^__^ I guess you can say the meaning itself kinda got.. distorted (right word) ^^?

I feel bad. I actually fallen away from anime >8( I just haven't been watching any as of late 8( This makes me kind of sad 8( I guess, I've got so many unfinished series that it's a bit overwhelming xDDD;; I don't know where to restart at ^__^;

Even so, I still consider myself as a fan ^^ Maybe, not otaku, but still a fan <33
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Postby Shao Feng-Li » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:35 pm

I don't like giving myself a label.
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Postby Scarecrow » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:48 pm

[quote="Nate (post: 1348749)"]Yes, they are art. I admit that. But if you want good art, look at a painting. Anime is focused on telling a story. Art helps with that (otherwise you'd just have drama CDs, which coincidentally are really popular in Japan as well but that's beside the point) but ultimately the art takes a back seat to the story as far as I'm concerned. Again, if you want pretty pictures, then look at paintings or photos.

You admit that really flashy art and a bad story is something you don't like either]

Ok, my thing is, I got into anime cause I like the art style. I wasn't even interested in it before that. I was also interested in animation and the japanese have some pretty creative ways of making keeping it artful on a cheap budget. Since anime is a visual medium (basically a combination of a book and moving paintings if you will), they should both be good. I'm drawn to the artwork first. Then I'll see if the story will keep me entertained. But if the art doesn't catch my eye, I'm not gonna pick it up period. If it's such a good story, put some effort into making it actually look good. If it's not worth good art/style, then it's not worth my time. Likewise, an anime with amazing art and just horrible story isn't worth my time either... but I'll at least look into it cause at least I know they had half of it right. I can tell right off the bat if the art is crap so I won't bother.

So I guess the long and short of it is, IMO, the story and art are equally important for me to be able to enjoy it.

Personal preference I guess. I do like books but I have my own imagination to use for that.
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Postby Tsukuyomi » Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:08 am

Shao Feng-Li (post: 1348766) wrote:I don't like giving myself a label.


Hmmm, actually nor do I ^^ I let others.. xDDD Bad or good, it doesn't matter, because it's what they thing and they're going to think what they want to think anyway :-? People can think what they want to think.. meh xDDD?
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Postby sdzero » Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:46 am

Hmm...I can make a comedy act about this. :thumb:

"You know you're an Otaku, when a 4 feet sword just isn't long enough for you."

"You know you're an Otaku, when ask you're martial arts instructor to teach you the KameHameha."

"You know you're an Otaku, if you're disappointed that you weren't born with blue, pink, purple, or green hair."

"You know you're an Otaku, when sweatdrops form on you forehead, not because you're exhausted, but because you're embarrassed."

"You know you're an Otaku, when you sign up for the military and you're shocked that there aren't any Gundams to pilot."

Just a little "Foxworthy" like comedy. :P
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Postby Bobtheduck » Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:52 am

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Fish and Chips (post: 1348738) wrote:Urban Dictionary is here to save the day.


Urban dictionary as a source?

The idea that Otaku never leave home... That's actually "Hikikomori" which a lot of Otaku have, but if Otaku never left home, there'd be no Comiket and no flash mobs and stuff like that...

I like Lucky Star's take on it, for the most part. Otaku do things "normal" Japanese people don't like, so it gets exaggerated, and many disturbed minds tend to gravitate toward otakuish stuff, giving them an even worse reputation, but they're essentially just people who like things outside mainstream pop and mainstream culture in Japan. I doubt you'd ever find someone who was obsessed with tea ceremonies or flower arranging labeled an otaku. Weapons or games or sci-fi or anime? Yeah. Not people obsessed with Japanese history. Heavy Metal? perhaps. Not if they were obsessed with traditional Japanese music.

And I hate the "w" word. It originated in Perry Bible Fellowship, and it didn't mean anything in the strip itself, but as for what it became (due to a certain site most of us are familiar with)... I think people who say it should be met with the same fate as that PBF strip, to be honest. The sentiment behind the word (which became a filter word for "wapanese" or White people who "think they're Japanese") is purely racist. The same idea behind white kids who like rap or soul or Jazz. As if liking something made by someone not your race makes you ashamed of your own race, or even STEALING it from another race, which I've heard too. What's funny is that the site that word was given a meaning on is full of people who would be called that, making its use outside of that place hypocritical.
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Postby Nate » Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:57 am

Scarecrow wrote:I was also interested in animation and the japanese have some pretty creative ways of making keeping it artful on a cheap budget.

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Since anime is a visual medium (basically a combination of a book and moving paintings if you will), they should both be good.

Ah, but you forget something. Anime also contains sound! So the question is, would you watch an anime with good story, good art, and horrible music and voice acting? What if an anime had a story you enjoyed, art that amazed you, but the music sounded like it was done by a four year old on a Fisher-Price piano and they hired hobos off the street to voice the characters?
If it's not worth good art/style, then it's not worth my time.

Sorry, all I hear is, "Man, that woman is really wonderful, she's so sweet and caring, and the best guy a girl could ask for...but her nose is kind of big so she isn't worth dating."

Or how about, "Man, the things that Jesus guy says sound really intriguing, but he isn't wearing fancy clothes and his beard looks scruffy so I won't bother to listen further."

I don't have a vested interest in making you understand further. To be honest, if you only want to judge books by their covers and miss out on some really fantastic stuff, it's your loss, not mine. Though I think there's a saying about that...can't quite recall it though. But it has something to do with the real value of things not being in how they look. That sometimes the best things in life don't always look good. But if shallow physical attractiveness is all you care about, then all I can do is pity you. *shrug*
If it's such a good story, put some effort into making it actually look good.

There are so many things wrong and flat out ignorant about this statement that I won't even bother getting into them. Not saying you are ignorant, mind, just the statement.

EDIT:
Bob wrote: The same idea behind white kids who like rap or soul or Jazz. As if liking something made by someone not your race makes you ashamed of your own race, or even STEALING it from another race, which I've heard too.

I don't think most people would say white kids who like rap or jazz are "that word." It's the white kids that try to act black, who wear FUBU clothing and the baggy pants and the huge gold chains, and talk like they're from the hood, G.

I like rap, but you don't see me acting like something I'm not. Similarly, I'll use Fish as an example, he really enjoys anime and manga. He's very into it, at least from what I see. He's enjoying something from another culture, but he isn't wearing kimonos and wooden sandals and eating ramen with chopsticks and saying "KAWAII" or "SOU DESU NE" and bowing to people. If he did, THEN he would be Wapanese.

There is a line between enjoying another culture and trying to BE another culture. Wapanese cross the line, anime fans don't.
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Postby Yamamaya » Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:03 am

CrimsonRyu17 (post: 1348744) wrote:Where do you think weeaboo started? It came from all these anime fans, calling themselves "otakus" instead of just "anime fans", and acting like they're soooo interested in the culture and they know soooo much about Japan but they're actually just obsessed with anime.



Because the internets = AMERICA!



I have no idea how you came up with that conclusion. You're actually got it flipped. Japanese "Otaku" just means "fan". I ALREADY informed you about this and you ignore my post. Do you even read it?


Methinks you've got your defintions mixed up. Otaku is considered a relatively derogatory title in Japan.

A la Wikipedia.
Negativity
In Japan there has been some negativity towards otaku and otaku culture, incidents including the Akihabara Massacre and the Osaka School Massacre, just a few of the crimes related to "otaku hatred" or "obsession". Another example is Tsutomu Miyazaki. In 1989, he became to be known as "The Otaku Murderer". His bizarre murders fueled a moral panic against otaku. However, Japanese journalist Akihiro Otani suspected that the crimes were committed by a figure moe zoku, the amount and degree of social hostility against otaku seemed to increase noticeably for a while, as suggested by increased targeting of otaku by law enforcement as being possible suspects for sex crimes, as well as by calls from many persons in local governments for stricter laws controlling the depiction of eroticism in materials which catered to otaku, for example, in erotic manga and in erotic videogames. Nobuto Hosaka criticised a lot of the hype.[original research?]


Anyway, let's take a look at the magazine OtakuUSA. Now if this was a magazine for individuals who you just talked about(the social recluses, hikkomori and the extremely obessed) they would contain reviews of hentais and they wouldn't have written that article that attacked moe fans. For some fans, they have a kneejerk reaction against the word otaku. While for other fans, they tend to like the title.

What can I say, some people like titles, others do not.
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Postby Makachop^^128 » Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:19 am

sdzero (post: 1348780) wrote:Hmm...I can make a comedy act about this. :thumb:

"You know you're an Otaku, when a 4 feet sword just isn't long enough for you."

"You know you're an Otaku, when ask you're martial arts instructor to teach you the KameHameha."

"You know you're an Otaku, if you're disappointed that you weren't born with blue, pink, purple, or green hair."

"You know you're an Otaku, when sweatdrops form on you forehead, not because you're exhausted, but because you're embarrassed."

"You know you're an Otaku, when you sign up for the military and you're shocked that there aren't any Gundams to pilot."

Just a little "Foxworthy" like comedy. :P


lol I laughed so hard right now my little brother is looking at me weird but its so true I want purple hair and a 5o foot long sword
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Postby goldenspines » Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:38 am

Yamamaya (post: 1348818) wrote:Methinks you've got your defintions mixed up. Otaku is considered a relatively derogatory title in Japan.


Anyway, let's take a look at the magazine OtakuUSA. Now if this was a magazine for individuals who you just talked about(the social recluses, hikkomori and the extremely obessed) they would contain reviews of hentais and they wouldn't have written that article that attacked moe fans. For some fans, they have a kneejerk reaction against the word otaku. While for other fans, they tend to like the title.

What can I say, some people like titles, others do not.


Please note that not all yaoi or hentai fans are socially inapt. Nor are all social recluse anime fans into hentai and yaoi.

OtakuUSA created their title to attract a certain demographic. Their job is to cater to anime fans with their articles, whether or not they support the otaku lifestyle.



From what I have gathered from this thread, the definition of "otaku" varies. Therefore, you are free call yourself an otaku if you choose to, but you must also be aware of the riducule that may come with it because not everyone will think being an "otaku" is good (i.e. They will think you live in your parent's basement, watch anime and read manga all the time, surf the internet all day, and have no real life friends, because only those other "otakus" online that understand you).
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Postby Yamamaya » Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:51 am

goldenspines (post: 1348823) wrote:Please note that not all yaoi or hentai fans are socially inapt. Nor are all social recluse anime fans into hentai and yaoi

But of course. Heck I'm interested in shojo ai/yuri and I'm not a social recluse. I can make friends pretty easily.

OtakuUSA created their title to attract a certain demographic. Their job is to cater to anime fans with their articles, whether or not they support the otaku lifestyle.


IMO they also used that title because otakuism is considered more of a positive term by a lot of American anime fans.



From what I have gathered from this thread, the definition of "otaku" varies. Therefore, you are free call yourself an otaku if you choose to, but you must also be aware of the riducule that may come with it because not everyone will think being an "otaku" is good (i.e. They will think you live in your parent's basement, watch anime and read manga all the time, surf the internet all day, and have no real life friends, because only those other "otakus" online that understand you).


Yes, you have gathered correctly.
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Postby Fish and Chips » Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:55 am

Bobtheduck (post: 1348812) wrote:Urban dictionary as a source?
For a cultural reference, yes.
Yamamaya (post: 1348818) wrote:Methinks you've got your defintions mixed up. Otaku is considered a relatively derogatory title in Japan.
So why should you want to apply a derogatory label to yourself? This is what some people have been saying from the beginning of the thread. Including Crimmy.

There seem to be a lot of crossed wires in this discussion. If we can't agree on a staple definition for the term, then literally every post in this thread can be distilled to, "You're wrong because my definition is different," or "You're wrong because I like my definition more." The nature of language is flexible, but if its so loose that people can allow themselves wildly different interpretations of the same word, there's no real argument, just disagreeing disagreeably.

In Japan, the term Otaku means enthusiast or obsessive hobby. That's its denotation, nothing more or less. But the connotation it carries is heavily negative, to the point that people don't wish to associate with it, or try not to think about it too much if they do.

Now Americans have co-oped the word, and in a flourish of Japanophilia have applied it to themselves, only now its gradually picking up its negative undertones once again. You have to understand people who have reservations will carry them into any mention of the topic.

So to reiterate the opening post, do I consider myself an Otaku? No. I appreciate that it has a harmless definition on paper, but the context that I associate with it is negative and undesirable, and that is not something anyone can change. And even if there wasn't any unfortunate subtext, I probably still wouldn't, because I dislike the rampant Japandering that the American Otaku culture has become.
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Postby Roy Mustang » Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:59 am

Yamamaya wrote:Heck I'm interested in shojo ai/yuriand I'm not a social recluse.


Wait, what? You do know what Shoujoai/yuri is right?


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Postby goldenspines » Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:12 pm

Yamamaya (post: 1348825) wrote:But of course. Heck I'm interested in shojo ai/yuri and I'm not a social recluse. I can make friends pretty easily.

Then I'm confused by your statment:
Anyway, let's take a look at the magazine OtakuUSA. Now if this was a magazine for individuals who you just talked about(the social recluses, hikkomori and the extremely obessed) they would contain reviews of hentais and they wouldn't have written that article that attacked moe fans. For some fans, they have a kneejerk reaction against the word otaku. While for other fans, they tend to like the title.


Because you are clearly stating that if OtakuUSA (or any anime mag for that matter) was catering only to the social recluses and extremely obsessed anime fans, theny they would include articles about hentai/yaoi/yuri.
And I just stated that that was untrue, since social recluse anime fans and hentai/yaoi/yuri/etc. fans were not always the same thing.
Then you agreed with me, contradicting your own previous statement. o.O
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Postby Scarecrow » Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:22 pm

Nate (post: 1348815) wrote:
Ah, but you forget something. Anime also contains sound! So the question is, would you watch an anime with good story, good art, and horrible music and voice acting? What if an anime had a story you enjoyed, art that amazed you, but the music sounded like it was done by a four year old on a Fisher-Price piano and they hired hobos off the street to voice the characters?


Honestly, I would not. Music and sound is an important part of any production.

Sorry, all I hear is, "Man, that woman is really wonderful, she's so sweet and caring, and the best guy a girl could ask for...but her nose is kind of big so she isn't worth dating."

Or how about, "Man, the things that Jesus guy says sound really intriguing, but he isn't wearing fancy clothes and his beard looks scruffy so I won't bother to listen further."


People are a completely different subject so I don't know why you keep bringing them up. I don't go around expecting everyone I meet (or myself for that matter) to exceptionally handsome/beautiful or expect some awesome soundtrack to play when they kiss or whatever. When it comes to film/animation, I do. It's a creation and it all works together. I want top notch production all around. Not a half baked attempt in the art department. Like I said, the art is important too and there is nothing wrong with enjoying the style and visuals and the over all production than just the story.

I don't have a vested interest in making you understand further. To be honest, if you only want to judge books by their covers and miss out on some really fantastic stuff, it's your loss, not mine. Though I think there's a saying about that...can't quite recall it though. But it has something to do with the real value of things not being in how they look. That sometimes the best things in life don't always look good. But if shallow physical attractiveness is all you care about, then all I can do is pity you. *shrug*


And I'm obviously not going to make you understand either. I'm not judging books to the cover, were not talking books. I don't care what a book looks like, if it sounds interesting I'll read it. Anime are not books. They are visual mediums in which to display a whole range of art from music, to design, to story and IMO THEY ALL HAVE TO WORK TO GETHER OR IT SUCKS! Have you seen the LOTR cartoon? It sucked. But it follows the same story as the academy award winning movies. Horrible animation, terrible score, and awful voice work. If the images are gonna suck, wright a book. Don't bother wasting time making a film if you're not going to invest in a decent artist/production. That's just the way I feel when it comes to film and animation. We aren't talking books, we aren't talking people. I'm sorry people like you feel they have to be so condescending and smug cause someone sees a little more importance in an area you don't. And that's why I stand up for the artistry over just the story in a film so much cause it's something people tend to over look and look down on a lot but it's a part very important to me. And there are plenty of good films/anime and stuff with both awesome art and story where I don't need to bother with a good story with poor art or vise versa.
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Postby Yamamaya » Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:23 pm

Yes I do. Since discussion of it isn't allowed here, I won't speak any further of the matter(I said was interested, not a fan mind you.)

Anyway, the reason why I brought that up was because if it truly was an otaku magazine it would cater to every anime interest, even the stranger ones.

It was a slightly contradiction on my part, but then again I haven't hugely invested in this "debate." :lol:

Also to Scarecrow, what if the anime studio generally made a good story but didn't have the cash to make the animation incredibly well done? (This happened somewhat with Gurren Lagann near the beginning).
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Postby Roy Mustang » Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:30 pm

Yamamaya wrote:Anyway, the reason why I brought that up was because if it truly was an otaku magazine it would cater to every anime interest, even the stranger ones.



And if there was one, then you would have more people thinking, man those otakus are some creepy weirdos!

I don't think the anime enthusiasts or young teens that their mommy and daddy would like that very much if they made a magazine that cater to every little anime interest.

You know that is not going to stick well with them on the matter, if they knew about every little anime interest.

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Postby blkmage » Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:33 pm

Okay, Genshiken is now required reading for everyone in this thread.
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Postby Blitzkrieg1701 » Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:33 pm

Well, if I didn't call myself an Otaku before, I'm gonna start just to annoy all the people who think I shouldn't :P
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Postby Yamamaya » Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:34 pm

blkmage (post: 1348839) wrote:Okay, Genshiken is now required reading for everyone in this thread.


I was planning to read it yesterday but never got around to it. XD

Kinda OT but is the anime any good?
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Postby Roy Mustang » Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:36 pm

blkmage wrote:Okay, Genshiken is now required reading for everyone in this thread.


Already read it. Do I get a cookie or something?


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Postby Makachop^^128 » Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:38 pm

Blitzkrieg1701 (post: 1348840) wrote:Well, if I didn't call myself an Otaku before, I'm gonna start just to annoy all the people who think I shouldn't :P


lol yea!
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Postby Cognitive Gear » Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:40 pm

Skimming through this thread, I've been surprised to find that no one seems to have the same views on this as I do.

The way I see it, Otaku/weeaboo/wapanese will carry different connotations depending on the involvement of the individual you ask in the activities these terms refer to.

For instance, if I were to ask my internet savvy, non anime watching freinds, they would say that those terms are derogatory in nature. If I were to ask someone who refers to themselves as an Otaku, they would say that it is a neutral descriptive term, or possibly positive.

It's much like the word "nerd" when I was in Jr High. The nerds liked the label, and everyone outside of our little culture thought of it as derogatory.

In short, it depends on your P.O.V.
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Postby Yamamaya » Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:42 pm

Cognitive Gear (post: 1348845) wrote:Skimming through this thread, I've been surprised to find that no one seems to have the same views on this as I do.

The way I see it, Otaku/weeaboo/wapanese will carry different connotations depending on the involvement of the individual you ask in the activities these terms refer to.

For instance, if I were to ask my internet savvy, non anime watching freinds, they would say that those terms are derogatory in nature. If I were to ask someone who refers to themselves as an Otaku, they would say that it is a neutral descriptive term, or possibly positive.

It's much like the word "nerd" when I was in Jr High. The nerds liked the label, and everyone outside of our little culture thought of it as derogatory.

In short, it depends on your P.O.V.


I also happen to hold to your view good sir.

Although the word otaku will probably just get blank stares among your non anime friends, unless they're internet savvy.
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Postby Blitzkrieg1701 » Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:45 pm

Cognitive Gear (post: 1348845) wrote:It's much like the word "nerd" when I was in Jr High. The nerds liked the label, and everyone outside of our little culture thought of it as derogatory.

In short, it depends on your P.O.V.


I'm reminded of how the song "Yankee Doodle," now an emblem of American patriotism, was originally conceived by British soldiers to mock the colonials. Insults are funny that way.
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Postby Yamamaya » Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:51 pm

Blitzkrieg1701 (post: 1348848) wrote:I'm reminded of how the song "Yankee Doodle," now an emblem of American patriotism, was originally conceived by British soldiers to mock the colonials. Insults are funny that way.


Like I brought up before, even the term Christian and Jesus Freak were originally meant as insults.
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Postby Scarecrow » Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:53 pm

Yamamaya (post: 1348836) wrote:Also to Scarecrow, what if the anime studio generally made a good story but didn't have the cash to make the animation incredibly well done? (This happened somewhat with Gurren Lagann near the beginning).


There are creative ways to get around the animation. If you're creative, you can make it look excellent. It may change the way you tell the story or change what you planned to show and depends on how long you want it to be. I don't expect fluid animation and most anime is not. But you can still do it in an artsy way (part of the reason I like anime as well. Angles, lighting, camera shots... they all can be used creatively and effectively). There was a film on New Grounds someone did and he did it himself, minimal animation but it was excellent IMO and I thought it was a very creative way to tell a story. Plus he had a fantastic song playing a long with it (so I guess he shouldn't get all the credit, cause honestly, without the song, it wouldn't have been very as good, but it's a perfect example of how everything comes together). I think it was called "My Angel".

I can't think of an anime off the top of my head but Jim Henson's The StoryTeller was an excellent TV show on a budget and they used lots of creative ways to film scenes and tell the story and used simple whistles and flutes creating very nice music. And that series is one of my all time favorites in my video collection and one reason Jim Henson is one of my heros. I just loved how how it all came together where I think if some other studio had done it, it could have easily been horrible.

So ya, even if you can't afford to do a fluid animation, there are still artistic and creative ways to do it and tell the story. Anyway, I'm done talking about this, this way off topic...
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Postby Mr. Rogers » Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:54 pm

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