When They Cry/...no Naku Koro ni - Ryukishi07 Appreciation Station

[Bobtheduck]

Higurashi Rei 5 was subbed a few days ago. For being filler it was actually pretty funny. It is a bit of a fanservice towards RenaxKeiichi fans, especially at the end. Grrr.

What's with all the hate towards the MionxKeiichi pairing? Grr.

I'm in process.. I may find out the answer before long, but does the white magatama affect the holder the way the red one does, or does it only make the holder the OBJECT of the red's affection... Because Takano...

[Yamamaya]

I'm in process.. I may find out the answer before long, but does the white magatama affect the holder the way the red one does, or does it only make the holder the OBJECT of the red's affection... Because Takano...

No it only affects the affections of the one who holds the red one. Takano acted that way because well she's crazy.

Now onto Umineko episode 11.
[SPOILER]This one took the horror level up a notch, especially that last scene with Beatrice forcing Rosa to eat her siblings O.o. It appears that meta Rika is going to play a big role in the next arc. And that blond haired girl reminds me a little of Takano. The next arc is shaping up to very interesting indeed. I'm guessing this one might focus on George's mother.[/SPOILER]

[Fish and Chips]

Boy oh boy, do I love being the last post on a page. Makes me feel all warm and tingly inside.

Anyway, Episode 1: Legend of the Golden Witch is finished (again), so let me accent and elaborate on my Eva+ theory:[spoiler]Sometime during the parent's fight, Eva, Hideyoshi?, and Another Killer dispatch the first six sacrifices, five with the possibility that one of them is faking their death. Eva and the Killer lug the bodies out to the shed, where the Killer explains s/he'll alter the corpses to look like the summoning ceremony, thereby solidifying even Eva's surprise the next morning to find the state the bodies were in.

It is also possible that Shannon was an accident, maybe supposed to be left alive to tear apart the two who are close (her and Kanon), when the Killer couldn't touch Natsuhi. They may have arranged to meet later and discuss the rest of the ritual.

Between now and Eva and Hideyoshi's deaths, the Killer would have ample time to lure out and kill Kinzo, through whatever means.

This actually solves Eva and Hideyoshi's closed room puzzle very neatly. After separating from the main group, Eva waited for the Killer to contact her, possibly telling Hideyoshi to take a shower to mask the conversation from him. Killer knocks, Eva lets them in, only to be met with a stake in the head. Or perhaps they talked a bit, then Eva got staked. Hideyoshi followed her. The Killer could have then left the room, but threaded the chain so as to lock the door behind them through the crack, or hidden in the room and waited for the others to discover the scene. They didn't search under the beds or through the closets.

Afterwards, while escaping, Kanon caught the Killer's footsteps and gave pursuit, only to be killed himself by another stake. Similarly, taking care of Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo later was easy, provided they took out Genji first.

Maria would have played co-conspirator only as far as the Killer probably convinced her they were reviving Beatrice, but Maria had to be good at keeping a secret because the others would never understand if she tried to explain what they were trying to accomplish. Midnight strikes, Maria realizes Beatrice actually isn't coming, that she's been used by the Killer, and safely stows away the message in the bottle.[/spoiler]Check.

[blkmage]

RE: Episode 1 theory
[spoiler]The third killer: would that be one of the 18 or is it the 19th person? A 19th person would be tricky because there are only two boats each day that go to the island and the typhoon prevented anyone from coming other than the boat that took them there. That means that the person would have needed to be on the island previously.

About Natsuhi and the door charm: no one knew that she had it. Jessica gave it to her after she left the meeting.

About Maria: who gave her the umbrella and wrote the letter? Remember that whoever it was, they had the Ushiromiya head's seal. All of the adults were in the main house at the time.

About Kanon: it's pretty clear that none of the survivors could have killed him.[/spoiler]

[Fish and Chips]

Just as a preface, the only theory I'm stubbornly attached to is Logical!Beatrice, this is just an alternative guess, which is the way you're supposed to play it I suppose. That said:[spoiler]Second/Third Killer: Would have to be one of the eighteen. Probably. While it isn't outside the realm of possibility that it was a 19th person, for that matter we could add infinity minus one killers and give Eva a whole army she conscripted and had secretly planted somewhere.

Of course, there's no reason it couldn't be two killers outside of Eva (and Hideyoshi?), but still within the confines of the eighteen.

Natsuhi: There are any number of ways to spin this. The Killer might have opened her door, noticed the charm hanging on the inside, and let it be. Or perhaps Shannon walked by at just that moment, so the Killer opted to change targets. Heck, maybe the Killer just assumed her door would be unlocked and discovered it wasn't. Regardless, Eva was probably brought in on this, so she figured they'd have to frame Natsuhi.

Maria's Letter: The Killer would have given Maria the letter under the pretense of the Golden Witch's instructions. The Killer could have feigned being possessed by Beatrice or said they were Beatrice in ________'s form, or the Killer could have just said that they too were trying to revive Beatrice and open the door to the Golden Land, but that they needed Maria's help. I can certainly see her accepting in aiding another supposed Agent of the Witch. She'd have to lie, uu-, but everything will be fine! Soon the Golden Land will open! Everyone killed will be brought back to life, uu-! Maria helped!

Kanon's Death: While I'm not sure it's as clear as you make it out to be, it doesn't rule out the possibility that the other Killer is one of the original six who faked their death.[/spoiler]

[blkmage]

For those of you feeling like Rosa's last stand (known as Rosa Musou) was a bit too short (one minute?), have a look at the visual novel version (five minutes!) and see a glimpse of why we love it so.

[blkmage]

And now we begin Episode 3: Banquet of the Golden Witch. To start off with non-spoiler stuff, I'd like to draw your attention to the OP, [color="red"]where the portrait has been replaced again[/color]. Who could it be? And who are all of these new challengers showing up in the OP? It is a mystery, nyeh~.

III-i:
[spoiler]It's the start of another episode, so that means more character development outside of the two days! This time, we journey into the past where we see the past of Beatrice and Eva. Beatrice's past is interesting because it's revealed that there's another witch named Beatrice! wut. Eva's past is interesting because it gives us a look at some more of how the Ushiromiya family works.

Once we get to the island, we get a scene where Battler's past is alluded to briefly. The adults get into an argument again, Beatrice sends a letter again, and goes to catch Kinzo's ring throw... only to be intercepted by someone new! And he is apparently an excellent baker, pukukuku.[/spoiler]

EDIT: Also, regarding the last episode, we missed out on Bernkastel's nipa~☆ talk with Battler, so clearly, Episode 2 was ruined.

[spoiler]......Um, in times like this, what did I used to say again?

.........Um, uh,
.........Fi-fight, oh~.

Mii, nipa~☆

.............It's so embarrassing doing things like this.[/spoiler]

[Fish and Chips]

So.

I just finished Episode 3: Banquet of the Golden Witch.[spoiler][SIZE="7"]WHAT.[/SIZE][/spoiler]

[blkmage]

So.

I just finished Episode 3: Banquet of the Golden Witch.[spoiler][SIZE="7"]WHAT.[/SIZE][/spoiler]

Problem, Battler?
[spoiler]Too bad, witches don’]

[Kung_Fu_Master]

Watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2Jje0CBIXo&feature=related. The ending is to great.

[Fish and Chips]

Have you stopped thinking so easily!?[spoiler]Okay, so, now that I've had a few days to think about it, I'm not entirely sure what to make of Banquet. From a storyline perspective, it's the best arc so far, absolutely no contest; but for a mystery game, that they've invoked Descartes' Demon makes it that much more difficult to seriously solve things from an Anti-Fantasy argument.

I also feel pretty stupid, since Virgilia drops two enormous hints that you shouldn't accept everything that's happening at face value. Then she opens her eyes at the end ASDFSDF.

However, this did lend some credence to my Eva+ theory in Episode 1. Episode 3 confirmed that Hideyoshi is willing to cover for his wife, though whether he plays a role in the murders I'll refrain from guessing beyond being an accomplice. And assuming Battler's blue text about Kinzo's death in Episode 4 is correct, that makes things fit together even better.

Still no idea who the killer is Episode 2.[/spoiler]Also, [color="RoyalBlue"]Sakutaro is behind everything[/color].

[Bobtheduck]

A bit off topic, but how did Leviathan change from being a sea monster to a DEMON? Ever since I first heard that when some watchdog was trying to say Final Fantasy was evil, I never got it... Bears and Lions and Tigers aren't evil, sharks aren't evil, why would a sea monster be evil?

Off-topic, I know. I loved the new ep, mostly for the WT(letter of choice) factor. Great new opening. So many crazy details. I wonder if they'll be starting chiru in the first anime series, the way they started Kai in the first higurashi anime... I hope not... If anything, they should just make the chiru anime twice as long. I think, at least, the answer arcs deserve being longer.

[blkmage]

Considering EP5 is about as long as EP4, which is longer than EP3, which is longer than EP2, there's pretty much no chance of EP5 showing up in season 1, unless something goes horribly, horribly wrong.

@Fish: Are you finished EP4 yet? If so, there should be quite a few interesting possibilities that open up and a few doors that are slammed shut.

[Fish and Chips]

Nah, I'm still early in the episode. As of posting this,[spoiler]Ange just had lunch with Professor Ootsuki.[/spoiler]

[Yamamaya]

A few new characters this week(and some new scenes in the OP.):thumb:
[SPOILER]Seeing kawaii Beatrice was nice. So it seems like I suspected that the effects of magic is based on whether or not the person believes in it. Also, it appears that imperfect witches can only restore the memory of an object and these objects easily break. BTW it was interesting to see that Eva has a witch ally. The last part of the episode was not that great since it was just the family's theories. Although the ending scene where Rosa said she killed Beatrice was awesome and brings up a lot of new possibilities[/SPOILER]

Speaking of which
[SPOILER]I wonder if the golden butterflies are some form of drug that causes hallucination. That could explain a lot.[/SPOILER]

The whole concept of a visual novel actually turns me off. I mean, the artwork the visual novel makes me want to vomit. Also, I would much rather read a novel or read a manga than pay a whole lot of money to read a visual novel. Seriously are people that lazy that they need a visual novel? No offense to people who enjoy them, I'm just ranting about the whole concept.

[blkmage]

The whole concept of a visual novel actually turns me off. I mean, the artwork the visual novel makes me want to vomit. Also, I would much rather read a novel or read a manga than pay a whole lot of money to read a visual novel. Seriously are people that lazy that they need a visual novel? No offense to people who enjoy them, I'm just ranting about the whole concept.

I'm feeling like you have a misconception of what a visual novel actually is. Have you actually ever read one? I'm asking because of your inference that visual novels => lazy. It's not like the things read them for you, so I'm a bit confused as to why you seem to think this is so. Considering the amount of text that you'd have to read to get through Episodes 1 through 4, it would take over 24 hours to get through, which is close to three times the amount of time you'd spend watching the anime.

Visual novels offer a few things light novels and manga do not. The biggest thing is the possibility for branches. Of course, that's a non-issue for Umineko, since there are no branches. In addition to branching, the advantages visual novels have over normal novels are music for setting atmosphere and art for establishing setting and character designs. The advantage visual novels have over manga is in the density of text and the narrative.

In fact, most anime adaptations of existing visual novels (Higurashi, Tsukihime, Fate/stay night to name a few) have been detested by its visual novel fans because the adaptation (almost necessarily) dulls and simplifies characterization and reduces the complexity and intricacy of the plot. Higurashi's atmosphere was changed. Fate/stay night's superior routes were never adapted. Clannad, even though it is probably the best adaptation of a visual novel, had it's ending confuse tons of people because it was dependent on branching, which was difficult to translate into a linear medium like anime.

Like light novels and manga, visual novels similarly offer some great stories that aren't adapted in other media yet. Planetarian, by Key, is one of those, that probably wouldn't work in novel or manga. Ever17 is another fantastic one and one that would be impossible to pull off in another medium since it exploits the multiple branches in visual novel structure.

Anyone who has seen both the anime and read the visual novel for Umineko will agree that the atmosphere and characterization offered in the visual novel is superior to the anime. There is an example in just about every scene in the anime in which I can show that the characters were better developed or had much better pacing in the visual novel. Everyone I've encountered who believes otherwise was too lazy to read the visual novel.

And regarding the terrible artwork, yeah, it's bad and it's unfortunate. But the strength of the writing is more than enough to get me to forgive it. Umineko's greatness is not something that's dependent on the art and I'm not going to let myself get hung up on something like that.

I feel like completely disregarding visual novels as a medium is the same as saying anime, light novels, manga, or games are devoid of any merit as a medium. They're just a different medium for delivering a narrative.

[MasterDias]

There is something to be said of letting an adaptation stand on its own, I think. Not that this would excuse a lazy, or a truly bad adaptation...but if VN fans are never actually satisfied with any of the adaptations, I'd think they would learn to tone down their expectations a bit.
It's unrealistic to expect a 1-to-1 adaptation.

A bit off topic, but how did Leviathan change from being a sea monster to a DEMON? Ever since I first heard that when some watchdog was trying to say Final Fantasy was evil, I never got it... Bears and Lions and Tigers aren't evil, sharks aren't evil, why would a sea monster be evil?

Leviathan was a demon in certain texts and interpretations.
Scroll down in the wiki.

[blkmage]

There is something to be said of letting an adaptation stand on its own, I think. Not that this would excuse a lazy, or a truly bad adaptation...but if VN fans are never actually satisfied with any of the adaptations, I'd think they would learn to tone down their expectations a bit.
It's unrealistic to expect a 1-to-1 adaptation.

I was using that as an example of the complexity of narrative that's typically delivered in good visual novels as compared to their anime counterparts.

But, I'm not sure that anyone actually expects a 1 to 1 adaptation (other than hardcore Umineko fans, I guess). Clannad, which is probably the best adaptation that I can think of, wasn't 1 to 1. Kyou and Ryou didn't get their arcs and the plot was changed so that all the arcs melded together and Nagisa was present for all of them.

On the other hand, the principal mistake for Fate/stay night was that the studio decided to animate the Fate route, which is generally considered the least good route. They're attempting to rectify this by doing an Unlimited Blade Works movie. And Higurashi was pretty brutal in terms of the content that it cut. So much was lost that Ryukishi07 had to request that they do an arc in Kai (Yakusamashi-hen) just to explain what was going on.

[Bobtheduck]

Leviathan was a demon in certain texts and interpretations.
Scroll down in the wiki.

I've actually read that wiki, and... I suppose anything I say about it would venture into theological debate, so I'll hold my tongue (and my fingers, in this case)

As far as the VN goes (or SN, as some will argue to the death) I can see the UGLY thing (though not quite as ugly as the original Higurashi art) but don't see how anyone could interpret them as Lazy on the part of the READERS... Oh, my word! Endless walls of text... I recently watched one of the TIPS on youtube... half an hour of reading, and this is a drop in the bucket compared to the actual chapters. Nothing lazy about that... It takes work!

[Yamamaya]

I'm feeling like you have a misconception of what a visual novel actually is. Have you actually ever read one? I'm asking because of your inference that visual novels => lazy. It's not like the things read them for you, so I'm a bit confused as to why you seem to think this is so. Considering the amount of text that you'd have to read to get through Episodes 1 through 4, it would take over 24 hours to get through, which is close to three times the amount of time you'd spend watching the anime.

Visual novels offer a few things light novels and manga do not. The biggest thing is the possibility for branches. Of course, that's a non-issue for Umineko, since there are no branches. In addition to branching, the advantages visual novels have over normal novels are music for setting atmosphere and art for establishing setting and character designs. The advantage visual novels have over manga is in the density of text and the narrative.

In fact, most anime adaptations of existing visual novels (Higurashi, Tsukihime, Fate/stay night to name a few) have been detested by its visual novel fans because the adaptation (almost necessarily) dulls and simplifies characterization and reduces the complexity and intricacy of the plot. Higurashi's atmosphere was changed. Fate/stay night's superior routes were never adapted. Clannad, even though it is probably the best adaptation of a visual novel, had it's ending confuse tons of people because it was dependent on branching, which was difficult to translate into a linear medium like anime.

Like light novels and manga, visual novels similarly offer some great stories that aren't adapted in other media yet. Planetarian, by Key, is one of those, that probably wouldn't work in novel or manga. Ever17 is another fantastic one and one that would be impossible to pull off in another medium since it exploits the multiple branches in visual novel structure.

Anyone who has seen both the anime and read the visual novel for Umineko will agree that the atmosphere and characterization offered in the visual novel is superior to the anime. There is an example in just about every scene in the anime in which I can show that the characters were better developed or had much better pacing in the visual novel. Everyone I've encountered who believes otherwise was too lazy to read the visual novel.

And regarding the terrible artwork, yeah, it's bad and it's unfortunate. But the strength of the writing is more than enough to get me to forgive it. Umineko's greatness is not something that's dependent on the art and I'm not going to let myself get hung up on something like that.

I feel like completely disregarding visual novels as a medium is the same as saying anime, light novels, manga, or games are devoid of any merit as a medium. They're just a different medium for delivering a narrative.

Please forgive me for my ignorance. I did a diservice to my generally logical mind by making a crack judgment. I was not aware that they were so long. Anyway I do not deny the fact that there is good characterization, writing,and what have you.

Personally I think that if an adaption is a good story on its own merit, there is no particular need to bash it for not following the visual novel/light novel/manga perfectly.

However, the endless walls of text that you have to click through would seem like a pain to me. I would prefer an actual novel.

[blkmage]

Personally I think that if an adaption is a good story on its own merit, there is no particular need to bash it for not following the visual novel/light novel/manga perfectly.

Actually, Higurashi and Umineko are a perfect example of this.

As it so happens, pretty much every non-Japanese fan of Higurashi and Umineko became one because of the Higurashi anime, which isn't the tightest adaptation. Still, in spite of its flaws, we all really enjoyed it. No one has really played the games because they still aren't translated yet and so no one was really aware of how different the anime was from the visual novel (it's a lot more different than Umineko's). But, these are the same people who are now whining about every tiny change (music choices, length of scenes, minor details, order of events, slight omissions) in the Umineko anime, now that they've had the fortune of reading the visual novel. These are the same people who loved a series that would have driven them nuts if they read the source material. It's pretty baffling.

I try not to become one of those people, because I realize how irritating it can be for people who are experiencing it through the anime for the first time. Of course, I still take note of the differences and where things might not be as well adapted. Personally, I think the anime is doing a pretty good job for being constrained to a standard 26 episode series.

However, the endless walls of text that you have to click through would seem like a pain to me. I would prefer an actual novel.

But you wouldn't get the awesome music! But yeah, it is kind of a pain, but you get used to it, kind of like how you get used to glancing at the bottom of the screen for subs.

[Yamamaya]

Meh music can sometimes be a bit distracting while reading although I'm sure it is very good.(I love the OP for the Visual Novel.)

To me it's like when people whine about the LOTR movies. Yes, they changed a lot of things but the movies are still excellent. I've read the novels since then and I still agree that the movies were well done with the time restraints. (Also the Fellowship of the Ring movie definitely cut down on all of that unnecessary material that made reading Fellowship of the Ring a pain. I'm looking at you Tom Bombabil!" XD.

But anyway, I do find it very irritating that fans of the Umineko anime can't have a discussion on it without some jerk dropping some spoilers or complaining about the slight changes. It takes the fun out of things.

On that note, I'll probably buy the visual novel, eventually. I'll probably order the Higurashi vns first. Atm, I prefer spending my money on manga/anime(and I want to get my hands on that Higurashi season 1 box set.)

[Fish and Chips]

Meh music can sometimes be a bit distracting while reading although I'm sure it is very good.(I love the OP for the Visual Novel.)

The music is Umineko. If you're not going to listen to it, don't play it. Or read it, or however it is. The little nuances, a certain sound at the right time, a change in music to accompany a change in mood, or even dropping the music altogether. Umineko really knows how to use its soundtrack. It's more than just noise to fill in the dull silence.

Consequently, I've tried obtaining the music box OSTs, and man, there are 100+ tracks on here. Even nixing the few variations. I'm going to have to sort through these.

Anyway, I'm somewhere near what I assume is the climax of Episode 4.[spoiler]It's a good thing R07 threw in Ange's 12 Years Later subplot because this is largely feeling like filler. Fun filler, but filler nonetheless. I can't think of any reason Battler needs to even dignify what's going on with acknowledgment that it's even happening.[/spoiler]

[blkmage]

Anyway, I'm somewhere near what I assume is the climax of Episode 4.[spoiler]It's a good thing R07 threw in Ange's 12 Years Later subplot because this is largely feeling like filler. Fun filler, but filler nonetheless. I can't think of any reason Battler needs to even dignify what's going on with acknowledgment that it's even happening.[/spoiler]

The climax of EP4 will be very clear, because it will be accompanied by dreamenddischarger, the best track since worldenddominator, and a bunch of stuff will happen.

The music is Umineko. If you're not going to listen to it, don't play it. Or read it, or however it is. The little nuances, a certain sound at the right time, a change in music to accompany a change in mood, or even dropping the music altogether. Umineko really knows how to use its soundtrack. It's more than just noise to fill in the dull silence.

Yeah, it's a lot like Phoenix Wright (even more so, actually) in that the music and the associated events are tied very strongly together. The first time you encounter murders, goldenslaughterer will always come to your mind. Rosa Musou is worldenddominator. Dread of the Grave is one of many of Battler's comebacks. dreamenddischarger is Anti-Fantasy vs. Anti-Mystery.

One of the most frightening things about the days leading up to the Umineko anime adaptation was that zts' tracks might not have made it into the anime. That would have been a change big enough to warrant dumping on it.

One of the things that I don't like about the anime is that the volume of the music is too soft. I guess it has to do with not overpowering voices, but in the visual novel, the first time I heard goldenslaughterer at the first twilight, I was overwhelmed by it and was subsequently filled with dread.

[Fish and Chips]

So guys, how about that Episode 4 ending.

[blkmage]

So guys, how about that Episode 4 ending.

[color="Red"]Uu uu-[/color]

[Yamamaya]

Does Snape kill Beatrice?

Sorry couldn't help it.

[blkmage]

More stuff on Episode 4:
[spoiler]So after finishing Episode 4, there should be a few things that are more cemented now.

First of all, more on Rosa and Maria! Best mom in the world? And, suddenly, uu goes from verbal tic to something much more.

Episode 4 was interesting because it showed more about how magic worked. It didn't really say anything conclusive, but there are interesting things that arise from the things we learn in 1998. Things of note here include the relationship between Maria's bunnies and the Siestas and Ange's use of the stakes.

And of course, the tea parties were pretty big this time around. First of all is the introduction of Battler's sin, which, for now, we have no further information about. The biggest revelation was probably the fact that Kinzo was actually dead, which closes some doors on some theories, but suddenly casts certain characters in a fairly suspicious light (Krauss, Natsuhi, Nanjo, Genji, Shannon, and Kanon).

And then, in addition to Beato's red text torrent, we got Lambdadelta throwing a ton of stuff too.

And again, dreamenddischarger is one fantastic track.[/spoiler]

[blkmage]

Reports suggest Episode III-ii:
[spoiler]was pretty great.

Even the diehard VN fans don't have much to complain about. Rosa and Beatrice was covered fairly well. Ronove's great and the fact that Battler is kinda creeped out by Ronove is hilarious because it's like Kyon's turning the tables on Itsuki (seiyuu joke). The stakes are even better than I expected. And of course, we end off the episode with a suitable cliffhanger.

Also, hope was used as the BGM during Rosa and Beatrice's meeting at the hidden mansion. I didn't realize how much I missed it until I realized that it's the first time they've used it in the anime (they used it a lot in the game).[/spoiler]

[Scarecrow]

Sorry, I've browsed through this whole thread for the most part and I didn't see anything answering this but I apologies if this was answered.

I had just bought the WTC boxset last week. I haven't watched yet and I really no absolutely nothing about the series, games or novels/comics/whatever they are. I guess it's 26 episodes... anyway, I heard there is a second and third season and some OVAs. Is only the first season available in the US right now? Or are 2 and 3 and the OVAs as well?

Just curious for future reference. The series sounds excellent so if I do like it, I would like to what's out there afterwards.