minakichan (post: 1220358) wrote:Mangaka should be allowed to write about their own philosophies and religions in their work too...
Unless they're fascists.
minakichan (post: 1220358) wrote:Mangaka should be allowed to write about their own philosophies and religions in their work too.
minakichan (post: 1220358) wrote:Unless they're fascists.
minakichan (post: 1220358) wrote:Mangaka should be allowed to write about their own philosophies and religions in their work too...
Unless they're fascists.
Warrior 4 Jesus (post: 1220633) wrote:I think that post was meant to be ironic, I mean I found it pretty funny.
ChurchPunk, I like endings to novels, comics, manga etc. that are natural. It can be a happy ending if it suits it, a sad, depressing end if that suits, a bitter sweet ending if that suits (my favourite type), but whatever it is the ending should not feel forced. Natural is good.
I agree with you mate.
Warrior 4 Jesus (post: 1220572) wrote:There is some nudity but it isn't there to titillate, (like you said it's only there for several panels) and it's not gratuitously detailed either - so this complaint of yours is pretty mild.
Warrior 4 Jesus (post: 1220572) wrote:Just because you don't agree/believe something, doesn't make it crap - that just strikes me as narrow-minded and naive.
Warrior 4 Jesus (post: 1220572) wrote:Did you really expect a Japanese manga to parallel our Christian values and beliefs (hello! they're a Shinto/Buddhist but mainly atheistic nation!)
Warrior 4 Jesus (post: 1220572) wrote:Fair enough if you were disappointed but some of your rant holds no weight. The nudity is a non-issue (like I said it's not sexual in the least and it's very minimal), but some of your disappoinment is warranted and understandable]
The nudity is not a non-issue. I just plain disagree with you right there. It would be nice if you pointed out which parts you think were warranted or understandable.ChurchPunk (post: 1220593) wrote:Huge +1. Except that I actually prefer realistic endings, not ones that are all "and they all lived happily ever after". =)
Warrior 4 Jesus wrote:Fair enough if you were disappointed but some of your rant holds no weight. The nudity is a non-issue (like I said it's not sexual in the least and it's very minimal), but some of your disappoinment is warranted and understandable]Prince Asbel wrote:The nudity is not a non-issue. I just plain disagree with you right there. It would be nice if you pointed out which parts you think were warranted or understandable.
Prince Asbel wrote:I suppose it stems from a belief of mine that man being infinitely superior to nature is a fundamental basic of life that even the most hardcore atheists will admit.
It's just so obvious that it maddens me.
The nudity is not a non-issue. I just plain disagree with you right there.
Radical Dreamer (post: 1220784) wrote:Before this goes any further, let's just remember that everyone has different standards for their entertainment and what they will/will not watch or read. Let's also remember that this is a manga we're talking about, and it is probably not worth a big, serious-business argument. That's all. XD
Nate (post: 1220785) wrote:If atheists don't believe in a god, then they believe man is part of nature. If you are part of something, how can you be superior to it? Without a god, man had to come from nature, and therefore man is not superior to nature in their view.
Nate (post: 1220785) wrote:I fail to see how it's obvious. Lots of animals build homes, and many primates are capable of using crude tools. The ability to build and use things doesn't make us superior right off the bat. The superiority of man to nature has to come from something else, then. From our unique relationship to God. Atheists don't believe in God, so therefore, it isn't obvious to them. So I don't see how you're possibly justified in this complaint.
Nate (post: 1220785) wrote:"The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame." - Genesis 2:25
This was before the Fall. Nudity is how God originally created us. It wasn't until AFTER we sinned that nudity became something shameful. If Adam and Eve hadn't eaten the fruit we'd all be naked right now. :p
Nate (post: 1220785) wrote:It was already stated that the nudity was NOT sexual in nature. How then could you possibly object to it if it wasn't shown in a sinful way? Better not go view Michaelangelo's David or the Sistine Chapel, I hear that they're all naked too.
Nate (post: 1220785) wrote:EDIT: Started writing this before Corrie's post, but I stand behind my statements. However if they are responded to I will not carry the conversation any further, as per her request.
Prince Asbel (post: 1221305) wrote:I don't see how it being a manga makes it less of a serious issue, but... Yes, you're right.
Radical Dreamer (post: 1221348) wrote:There are more important things in this world that are actually worth arguing over than a manga, is what I mean to say. XD
Maokun: Ninjas or Pirates? (Vikings are not a valid answer, sorry)
EricTheFred: Vikings are always a valid answer.
Miyazaki's actual views of religion are ambiguous, and where religious imagery drawn from Shintoism or Christianity show up, they are usually representative of man's relation to nature. By all accounts, however, Karl Marx is a very strong influence on Miyazaki's thought. In his early works, Miyazaki was a Communist. Castle in the Sky, for example, features a strong proletariat, while Lupin III: The Castle of Cagliostro features strong socialistic imagery. The period Miyazaki created Nausicaa represents the moment Miyazaki says he abandoned Marxism because he "stopped seeing things by class, as it's a lie that one is right just because he/she is a laborer". Even so, Marx's thought remains a strong influence on him and his cinema. In Spirited Away, for example, the witch Yubaba, as the owner of the bath-house, holds control of the means of production, and uses this leverage to control her laborers by pressuring them to surrender their names and identities.EricTheFred (post: 1221403) wrote:Just to take note of something. Reading Hayao Miyazaki's work as supporting a philosophy of either humanism or naturalism is probably a mistake. Miyazaki has always struck me as very much a product of the religion of his land. He seems to see spirits everywhere, and gods in everything and for everything, and that, ladies and gents, is a pretty good description of Shinto. I get the sense that he sees environmentalism as a kind of worship, a means of piety toward the gods of his beliefs.
So, for us as Christians to criticize his work for being 'humanist' or 'contrary to religion' is probably unfair. By all means, feel free to oppose the views he espouses as being the product of a religion you do not believe in, but make sure you understand where he is coming from.
For my own part, I have always seen stewardship of the Earth as one of our appointed duties, and as one of our greatest failings. So I don't diverge completely with Miyazaki philosophically. But, obviously, just like most other Christians, I do see our relationship with the world as ultimately different than his view. It doesn't prevent me from enjoying his work any more than my forefathers' conversions from paganism to Christianity would prevent me from enjoying Wagner.
GhostontheNet (post: 1221709) wrote:Miyazaki's actual views of religion are ambiguous, and where religious imagery drawn from Shintoism or Christianity show up, they are usually representative of man's relation to nature.
Maokun: Ninjas or Pirates? (Vikings are not a valid answer, sorry)
EricTheFred: Vikings are always a valid answer.
That is one possible interpretation of the evidence. However, the strong Marxist influence provides a certain measure of counter-evidence to this interpretation. As is well-known, Karl Marx was a very vigorous defender of philosophical naturalism (i.e. matter, energy, and natural forces are all that exist), a belief system has simply no room for Shinto spirits to exist as well. Its also worth noting that from its inception, communism contains a certain early environmentalist streak. Frederick Engels, who co-authored The Communist Manifesto with Karl Marx, once remarked: "‘Let us not, however, flatter ourselves overmuch on account of our human victories over nature. For each such victory nature takes its revenge on us." This theme of "nature's revenge" is a familiar one in Miyazaki's work, appearing in works like Princess Mononoke and Nausicaa. It may well be that within the genre of fantasy, where relics of old mythologies pop up and bend to the whims of the author, that Miyazaki employs imagery from the traditional Shinto religion to make points rooted in Marx's ideas.EricTheFred (post: 1221889) wrote:Whether you realize it or not, that statement serves to support my point. Shinto itself is essential a religion centered on nature and man's relation to it. Whether or not he will publicly admit it, I have always seen Miyazaki's work are very strongly Shintoist (the traditional version, not the State Shinto of wartime Japan).
That is one possible interpretation of the evidence. However, the strong Marxist influence provides a certain measure of counter-evidence to this interpretation.
termyt (post: 1221931) wrote:It should be noted that the intent of the author is somewhat secondary to how his work is perceived.
This is one of Miyazaki's own criticisms of Nausicaä. He was unhappy with many viewers' interpretation of Nausicaä at the end of the movie being messianic. That was not his intent, but the imagery can clearly be interpreted that way and has been time and again.
I must say, as I read through the interview that I never realized things were quite so dark inside Miyazaki's head. It certainly defies his public image. Whatever one's view of both the Nausicaa manga and anime, it seems clear that the process of creating it was filled with much cathartic creative agony.MIYAZAKI No, not a countermeasure. Forest people disappear into the forest, right? Of course. They throw away culture. They may maintain their own rituals, but their lifestyle is not connected to increasing population. Therefore, I don't see how such a people can have a future. I don't mean to say that it's all that important to have a future-I think we talk about the future too much. When I talk about the present, I'm accused of living just for the moment. But it has nothing to do with whether or not I have hopes for the the future. That's because the future is just that I will die. I mean my future as an old man. [laughs]
This may sound like a zen mondo [question-and-answer session], but when I hear talk of children's futures, I just get upset, because the future of a child is to become a boring adult. Children have only the moment. In that moment, an individual child is gradually passing through the stage of childhood, the world of childhood-passing through it from moment to moment. But there are children in existence all the time. That's the way it should be understood, in my opinion. This can't be said clearly with words.
#Nausicaa starts with the end of Western Civilization as we know it, but continues throughout the book to be influenced by Western values. Then somewhere around the seventh volume, Buddhist ideas seem to take over...
MIYAZAKI I don't really know. Because I'm not familiar with Buddhist thought [laughs], since I haven't studied it formally. I really don't know. Take reincarnation, for example. I can't simply believe in it. For example, in the Cambrian period, when there was an explosion of strange creatures, like the Anomaloches-how does that fit in with reincarnation? I can't understand it unless someone explains it to me.
#But Buddha himself denied the theory of reincarnation.
MIYAZAKI In a word, Buddha taught us that we must distance ourselves from such ways of thinking. It's an incredible doctrine.
#Indeed it is.
MIYAZAKI And that's the only thing I'm dimly aware of. In short, as soon as we adopt a common religion, we start worrying only about things like how to relieve our present suffering, or how to save our souls.
#What I found very interesting was the inspired contrast you set up between light and dark in the second half of the story. In Western-style methodology up to now, the story ends with the victory of the light. But Nausicaa says "No!" and denies the light. Is this a symbol of your strenuous resistance [to Western methodology]?
MIYAZAKI The view that light is better than darkness is one that can be related to thinking lightly of the future. No matter how wise or elaborate the plan, trying to apply it to an era in which you do not live is extremely arrogant. It will not yield satisfactory results. That's something I'm sure of. I didn't want to have Nausicaa just denounce the people who made the world what it was as foolish. The fact is that they were very intelligent people, and it's not so easy just to call them liars and fools. But no matter how pure and logical the plan was, no matter how right, 'dirt' was bound to stick to it in the actual implementation, which finally led to the establishment of religion, and the founding of the order of monks, and things started to go wrong. That's human nature. But even if that hadn't happened, I believe that something would have.
If there were no misunderstandings or illusions, then Buddha's teachings would disappear, right? That's why this thing we call 'culture' is so complicated. That's what Nausicaa said 'NO' to-said 'You're wrong!' to.
I think that Nausicaa probably thinks that she would like to live at the same happy level as insects and birds, but I'm not sure. [laughs] We are like midges, who can't survive if the water is either too clean or too dirty. We live between extremes.
That's what she was talking about. Humans cannot live totally pure lives. To shoulder the burden of work is to be human. I hate to put that into words-it makes me sound so pretentious. That's why I thought it was better to use a word like 'pollution' in the story. In short, the question of how anyone could possibly survive in the middle of the Sea of Corruption wearing such a simple mask was going around and around in my head. So I was sure that there had to be something more, and it came out in the form of Nausicaa's rejection. I hated those masks. I drew them, all along thinking that they were a lie. A mask that covers only this part...[covers the bottom half of his face with his hand and laughs]
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