***Code D.Floss***

[Kaligraphic]

Look, I don't have Internet access at home. Give me some slack here.

[USSRGirl]

So it's elemental magic of a character possesed by a superior being?

... how original.


...

WHY ARE YOU DISCUSSING THIS HERE MORDECAI JAM?!!!

[Peanut]

Because, this is the pub...and seeing as how there are a lack of beverages, food, seats, tables, and people who have had a few too many drinks the only thing left for us to do is share ideas about whatever topic someone decides to bring up.

[Kaligraphic]

Hmm, I've got a bottle of undead tequila. It's good, but it'll turn you into a ghoul, and then Puritan's bioagent will make you explode. Worth it?

Hmmm.....


Oh, and Pascal, if you'd like, I can construct a full-on magic theory complete with application, classification, and game balance pretty quickly. (I can offer an extended version of the framework that I built my own magic on. (Pattern magic) It's highly logical (if a little complicated), and I can easily offer translations of all existing magical effects to this system. Plus, it would actually make the moniker "symbological kinetics" make some sense.) I pretty much have it all worked out, I just haven't worked that long on explaining it coherently. Essentially, it rewards imagination in the creation of effects. (i.e. being clever is the best route to power, because the really cool stuff comes with combining multiple effects.)

[Peanut]

...I vote we use Kaligraphics system mostly because in every video game I've ever played the coolest spells/attacks have always been the most powerful. Plus I think it would fit nicely with whatever the future of the RP holds...

[Dante]

But we haven't actually truely seen it yet, Ok, Zarn Kali can you drop it onto paper, I'll try to continue on my own. But the first step is the future of the magic system. Also point B, anyone considered a new world in the future? Earth Geography has taken quite a bit of a beating these days.

[Kaligraphic]

Here's a quick first draft:

A Primer on the Nature of Magic

To begin, we must discuss the source of magic. All magic is powered by patterns of primal energy, which may be perceived and read by the master mage. On most worlds, there is a single primary pattern which energizes the particular patterns of various things and places in the world. Thus, magic connects all things in the world. On some worlds, the patterns of magic may extend far enough into the physical world to be of significant effect even on those who are not practitioners of the art. These manifested links are commonly called magic lines or ley lines, and can release significant amounts of magical energy.

Attached to this primary pattern are myriad sub-patterns, powering all magical effects in the world. Often, arcane glyphs, runes, or other writing is used to create local effects, such as magical wards or a healing augmentation field. It is because of this association between symbols, glyphs, and writing and an actual magical effect that magic is also known as symbological kinetics or runological force.

There are many different ways of interacting with the primary pattern, yet some ways are almost identical to others - one mage may specialize in controlling heat, another cold, yet to create either effect is simply the reverse of the other. So why, then, may a fire mage be so clumsy with cold, or an ice mage be so clumsy with fire? To put it simply, it is because creating the basic effect is far from the only aspect of their magic.

Think about this: a mage creates a ball of fire - why does it not blow out? Why does it stay contained? Why does it act as he wills? It is because he has learned to control the fire magic. He has learned to maintain it, to contain it, and to restrain it from harming himself. Many a fire mage who thought that the creation of fire was the important part has found himself badly burnt when his prized fire grew out of his control. (In part, this is why schools for instruction in magic are traditionally constructed of bare stone.)

Consequently, to become powerful in a particular area requires many different skills, yet the truest test of a mage's ability is in how he uses those skills together. Combining fire and ice, for instance, can use a material's own thermal expansion and contraction to turn it to dust, while either on its own would fail. Yet to combine both requires much more skill than simply manipulating each separately, even at the same time, because of the difficulty of controlling the two in coexistance. Of course, this is only the most basic of examples; there are many more subtle interactions to be found. The prize of magic belongs to those mages who use things in novel ways, and who combine things to produce new and powerful effects.

[Dante]

Yes, but what qualifies as unique and what and what are the limitations... Couldn't the fire mage get by by creating a giant fire ball? What are the limits of the line for instance. I was thinking that I could write out the theory for it to create limitations using mathematics (In spoken mathematics I know) but I would need certain parameters to make it work. No this does not make it a physical system, as anything can be rewritten in math... math is just a powerful language to represent things in quantitative values... which is the basic magic we're using anyways (we're not generally trying to write out the magic of love O_o)

[Kaligraphic]

Basically, the strength of the effect is controlled by the amount of energy drawn from the pattern, the strength of the pattern at the point of connection (for game purposes, the intricacies of the pattern's flow are typically abstracted and a generic value is used), the nature of the draw (i.e. burst, sustained, long-term connection), the skill involved in the power draw, the skill involved in the manipulation of that power, and the nature of what's done with the magic. This is difficult to model in advance, much like scoring a session at a shooting range when nobody's chosen a gun yet. Basically, all values need to be approximated, but then, we've never been too mathematically precise in this game anyway.

After all, why limit the game to just math geeks?



As for a fire mage, well, fireballs have an innate weakness. They're just balls of fire. If his opponent can skilfully create a spear out of ice, and maintain it in the fire, well, you've got fire mage kabob. And if I have a gun, and you have a ball of fire, all I have to do to win is shoot you in the head and you die. Yes, the fire mage could get by simply by creating large fireballs - if he only wanted to be a chef. He might even get by in a street fight against common thugs. But against a serious opponent, being a one-trick pony is a severe handicap.

Power is therefore figured by an estimate of the reasonable strength of the effect (i.e. a single fireball can't destroy an entire army), modified by the skill of the mage (i.e. Lord Kalvin can do bigger things than, say, Lucius can. Also, someone trying to create an effect beyond his level can have it backfire or fizzle.). More imaginative effects are more effective, simply because they will have a higher reasonable power. (Just like a gun is more powerful than a stick.)

[Puritan]

Well I also second (or should it be third? ) the Kaligraphic magic continuum. It has the most points for continuity, leaves room for imagination without utilizing an idea utterly external to the running of the RP, and, I think, keeps a pretty good balance with the typical RP science mechanics. I would propose we extend the system to magical items and devices (it should flow in a reasonable fashion) and then let the thing be. And I also second the idea of not limiting the game to math geeks...I may be an engineer (and capable of plowing through equations if I must) but I most certainly would rather discuss things descriptively. Not only does it make the RP more accessable, but it's really more fun to be able to talk about fusion generators rather than having to model the things, and I'm not even going to touch the cybernetics or sentient robotics we accept so easily.

[Peanut]

Not only does it make the RP more accessable, but it's really more fun to be able to talk about fusion generators rather than having to model the things, and I'm not even going to touch the cybernetics or sentient robotics we accept so easily.

Well...as long as there are Ninja Monkies in this world...I doubt you will ever have to explain your Cyborgs at all.

[Kaligraphic]

I believe that the same mechanics that allow for manipulation of magical forces by symbols and runes should allow for effects to be embedded into objects and other devices, even to the degree of magical "mechanisms". Such a thing would change the environment of the game rather significantly, though, so, while the system I have proposed is easily extensible in this manner, that particular extension should probably have a separate discussion.

Thematically, though, if we are to introduce it, I think we're at a good narrative juncture, what with the current upheaval, and I could see introducing a small flow of minor artifacts from the undead lands in the near future, to kick things off.

[Dante]

Don't worry about reasons to introduce it Kali, all this is for the future where I expect a point rather good for introducing such things. So we have a lot of support for Kali's system, but I don't fully understand it? Does it have enviromental effects, if so is it ellement based or something else (does the ocean increase water magic ability?) Also, are magic systems to be like technologies (no stealing of techs or magic) or once a magic type is learned we can expect others to learn it? Also what is the limiting function. In other words, what stops someone who claims to create infinitely hot fireballs from overpowering an imaginitive system, why do imaginative systems gain the advantage to brute force?

If we can get around that, there is another point, what will become of our world geography. Same or different? If the same, then our world stays the same, the human population greatly reduced, enviroment fried, war-torn... practically post-apocolyptic. But at the same time, a new world could have different geography, form, starting fresh, with a fresh population of people (who may or may not remember the events)... although no memory might be better to avoid psychological problems. Even the nations would start anew with their own land portioned out evenly to begin with. or they could grow from scratch.

One thing that I believe should not change are our characters, they should have all their memories (otherwise it is a complete reset)... that and we have each grown close to our sets of primary characters.

Oh, one more thing, we can also change the tech level, even to going back to medieval tech or something completely odd... In the end, the new world is ours to determine. Does this mean it has to have major changes? No, it just means that it can, and I believe that the players in the RP should control this more than continuity... after all it is the world they are playing in right?

[USSRGirl]

Hmm, I've got a bottle of undead tequila. It's good, but it'll turn you into a ghoul, and then Puritan's bioagent will make you explode. Worth it?

Hmmm.....


Oh, and Pascal, if you'd like, I can construct a full-on magic theory complete with application, classification, and game balance pretty quickly. (I can offer an extended version of the framework that I built my own magic on. (Pattern magic) It's highly logical (if a little complicated), and I can easily offer translations of all existing magical effects to this system. Plus, it would actually make the moniker "symbological kinetics" make some sense.) I pretty much have it all worked out, I just haven't worked that long on explaining it coherently. Essentially, it rewards imagination in the creation of effects. (i.e. being clever is the best route to power, because the really cool stuff comes with combining multiple effects.)

.............................

ONLY RUSSIAN VODKA IS PERMITTED IN HERE!

[Kaligraphic]

Environmental effects may either play a large role or none at all. If you have a character with, say, powerful skills with water, like Lotan, this character would naturally have more to work with in a wetter environment. Pattern magic differs from elemental systems, however, in that the water is, in a technical sense, the recipient of the action, rather than the source of the power.

The other element, however, is local pattern strength. Some places may be magically stronger or weaker, without regard to elemental composition. Thus, Sheltek can have a ley line crossing the bay where Rei's dinner was caught, without making every fish in the game magical. This is, of course, an optional dynamic on Earth, as no lines have been specified there.

Regarding the spread of magical effects, if I watched Puritan manage a nuclear reactor for a bit, would you feel safe with me at the controls? Can you learn the nuances of kung fu from seeing one fight? It takes a lot of skill to work with magic. Thus, no, techniques would not be copiable without the requisite skills. This can also have the effect of approximating the system of different realms of magic without making an artificial classification. Effects might be learnable, but would typically require a period of training by the originating mage. This would, of course, lead to the creation of schools, and then to potential nationwide dissemination of basic skills. Reverse engineering, however, would be possible for smaller and simpler effects, but it could not be instantaneous, and increased complexity would make it harder and harder. Think about building nuclear weapons. Iran might want to build them, and it could have the basic idea of how, but it's a lot of work to figure out the specifics. Duplicating a minor invention, like an electronic toaster, however, is much simpler, and could be done much more quickly. Reverse engineering, however, would require most of the prerequisite skills in order to begin. You need training to understand what's happening, after all. We could, perhaps, designate a small number of effects as "signature" or "trademark" moves, essentially disallowing transfer for thematic/narrative reasons.

As far as creating an infinitely hot fireball, well, fireballs are relatively low-level, so assuming that a character of consummate skill creates the hottest fireball ever, well, all they have is a hot fire. If a cyborg shoots a large-caliber MARS round at that guy, either the round will last long enough to kill the guy, or, if the fireball is hot enough to instantly vaporize the round, there are likely to be severe containment difficulties, and I would call it a very poor weapon. To counter, I would say: get around behind him and shoot him in the head. If the round is vaporized, well, then shoot a lot of water at him and see if he can deal with the steam. (steamed mage, anybody?) Or I could have a vampire stab him in the neck because vampires' special weapons don't melt. Or maybe we would just say *fizzle* and the effect (or its containment) fails.

Remember, it takes more work to control a fireball than it does to create one. Maybe we just say "wait a minute, that's silly. Earth is a weak-magic environment ever since Lord Kalvin drained the pattern, and you can't draw infinite energy anyway. So it fizzles." I mean, if you want, we can discuss the definition of reasonable effect. I can even act as a magical effect coach to get people started, and evaluate the effects to make sure that they work, but I think that characters would either find out what works and what doesn't, or they would end up with a rather leaded cranium, if you catch my drift.

Essentially, the limiting function is thus twofold - first in that we can say "this magnitude of effect is reasonable, that is not", and second in that because magical effects can't just be copied wholesale, if you don't bring your imagination, you'll find that the effects that you create are inherently limited even if you can rationalize pumping huge amounts of power through them.

As far as replacing the game world, I'd vote against it, really. We've put a lot of effort into it, and nullifying that would seem to negate all of the hard work that we've put in. I'd say let's keep the world we've got.

[USSRGirl]

Call the EPA!!! Somebody done 'n poisoned Billybob's water!

*Insert sarcastic commie comments here*

[Dante]

WOOHOO HURRAY FOR TEMULIN! But are you REALLY communist? Oh, and if you could at least show up once and a while and make a speech for public morale it would be great, after all the world is collapsing everywhere, humans are now second rate creatures and... well let's just say that the world could use a speech once in a while from Temulin. Or at least say that you're alive in you're massive castle in the URS maybe? Oh well...

[USSRGirl]

Hmm I may make a speech in the near future...

[Dante]

Magic System Proposal

As was demonstrated on October 7th, it is impossible to truly wing a magic system within the RP. Approving magic system like we approve technologies turns out to have nasty difficulties, balance has been pointed out as critical but this is foolishness, if all sides are truly equal in magical potential then it is simply a constant potential added to the game whose pure purpose is image and investigating the subject will yield no results for any player who wishes to run their nation without deep level searches within Wikipedia (as so many of the technologies have been depleted by Puritan and myself). When this is combined with the fact that we ourselves are becoming limited by the enhancements of technology it is apparent that a new system is necessary to avoid the death of magical and technological history within the RP. In so much as I greatly like Kaligraphic’s magic system (as do others) it will quickly produce arguments if I begin GMing magic systems (as technology would suddenly gain an edge within the game for it’s stability in an action, magic would have a intrinsic instability that any action of significance could be GMed at any time). To avoid these problems I will propose the following magic system in the hopes that in the age to come symbological kinetics will stabilize as staple of many major nations across the world.

First let me start by describing the system we’ve created thus far in the game, the runological force derives its’ power from the user or their environment. This ethereal energy is then manifested into certain effects, for instance Peanut may activate the ninja monkey puff of smoke system, or Kaligraphic may create a drain field within reality or Hakaii may create his spirit virus. The systems are far and wide however, there are problems with the system. First off, the slot system as it has come to be known with only two magics per side has been a pain for certain sides and most or all find it terribly limiting as they feel as though their entire potential has been taken up once they have created the two schools for their side. Second, is that the limitations on the system are basically determined by the GM for all intensive purposes, which often results in magic systems that are quickly deemed uber powerful on all sides as each side suddenly feels that they deserve the most powerful magic system. In the end, it results in confused often angering gameplay that drives all the players crazy.

The New System

It is my hope that all of the above difficulties can be overcome with the implementation of a new system. The system I propose works off the following construction. The first construct of this system is that it is based on the all too common element based system, I’m going to modify the system from Chrono Cross to begin with.

Ellements
Light
Fire
Bio
Earth
Water
Darkness
Lunar

-Basics
Now, to avoid getting into a cliché movement that I believe will get old quick, I’m going to start by stating that unlike Chrono Cross or most systems, the use of the polar opposite system of you enemy does not cause more damage to them, further, no one side may gain exclusive rights to any of the above systems. This does not mean that one side cannot focus on one type of magic, it just means that all players may create all forms of effects within the game. However, beyond the most simple applications of these effects, no side may steal another side “magic techâ€

[Dante]

(See previous Page for first Part)

-The Technology/Symbological Kinetics Debate

Recently it has come into style within the RP to use magic as the counterweight to technology and vice versa. When once side doesn’t like another sides tech, they tend to simply create a magical system to overcome it, conversely the same happens when one side doesn’t like the other sides magical system. In a manner this is replacing gravitational shields, we produce shields to protect our units from the things we don’t like to avoid dealing with them. Sometimes, magic was used to fight magical system or technology to fight technology systems. At it’s heart however, it is the same as the gravitational systems used, and generally this has been a problem when technology is being interfered with by magic or magic by technology. Further more, it has been noted (with the drain field as an example) that the laws of symbological kinetics do not yield themselves to our physical laws, suddenly the laws of physics go out the window when discussing symbological kinetics, but at the same time the laws of magic do not go out the window when discussing the use of technology. This is obviously biased in ways that are absurd to be frank. As a result I suggest that the two forces in the universe are independent in their manifestations but operate in their effect as though they were using the same laws. What in the world does this mean? Let’s look at it.

The concept put simply is that a work of magic cannot interfere with a work of technology and a work of technology cannot be used to interfere with magic… they cannot effect the workings of each other, they only interact at the point of manifestation IE when the blast goes off. At the same time however, there is another potential element in strategy here, unlike technology magic draws from the mental energy of the users, and thus if magical energy can be extinguished in them it can render them unconscious (which is good enough for dead in the RP) thus, unlike technology where HP is constant within the user, MP drains in usage and it should be possible to reduce it in direct actions. This is basically the same system used in Star Ocean: Till the End of Time, but note that this can only occur by means of symbological kinetics, it can not be started by technology.

-The Creation of a Mage Army

The use of magical elements in a society should be much like the creation of a technological army. Most of the army should be made of average units, with a reduced number of elite units as the power of the units get higher. This draws from the nations population with will display a form of bell curve in its abilities. But make note of the social implementations, within a society where science is prized one would expect far fewer individuals fascinating with symbological kinetics as the engineers of that society are far more prized. Conversely you would expect more magic orientated individuals within a society that prized their great mages. As a result, the type of dominance that each side has in technology will likely determine their dominance in magic. And as much as magic-powered lasers and flare igniting missiles are prized, they stand in violation of the fact that magic cannot interfere with the workings of technology (apparently for good or bad). If one likes the possibility of both systems then there is of course a compromise, but then that side should neither dominate in technology or magic which is unlikely to be something that is preferred. In the end, this should greatly influence the society that comes out, as a technological society will be very science orientated with circuits and wires, and an army training and units that are well… technological. Magical societies however, will focus more on pattern recognition, the creation of original uses of their magics and a society that is far more symbol orientated, even to the point where technology is practically absent, replaced by magical means which are seen as superior.

End Result

The end result of this system is that it eliminates a good portion of the riff raff that has been coming with the magical system as it has often been seen as a massive loophole for all forms of extravagant power. The magic systems will still need to be reviewed by GM but you know what to expect and how to build your society, I’m not going to grant massive magical abilities to high tech societies, nor will extravagant works of engineering be granted to magical societies. Alliances will also be monitored as I try to keep things “fairâ€

[Zarn Ishtare]

How would wind, lightning, metal, or summoning come out of that?


I need wind and lightning, man.


So?

[Dante]

In the Chrono Cross System, Lightening is part of Earth and Wind is part of life. Summoning was rather difficult because it required lining up three ellementals in a row... and generally for this to happen you had to be in an enviroment that created those ellemental colors... which was generally the type of enviroment in which the summon healed the enemy O_O...

I don't think this works as well here, where lightening or wind goes doesn't matter as much because each of the ellemental systems are equally obtainable by all players (so its just a catagory under which we combine the effects to create new effects) but systems can be imagined in which compressed fire produced a bolt of lightening, or even water systems could do it, its a matter of imagination. Summoning here acts as using a large amount of enviromental and symbological kinetic power to form creatures to battle with you, such as using a large power of water ellement to form a leviathon of pure water which you control, the same goes for every ellement, with the manifestations changing according to the effect.

As far as metal, I'm not sure what is meant by this, could you possibly ellaborate?

[Zarn Ishtare]

Well, Magnetism for one, creating metals.....


stuff like that.

[Dante]

But err... magic doesn't control technology ( a magnetic field controlling magic? O_O, why not just use a big magnet? Unless we used magic to create magnetic monopoles )

[USSRGirl]

Hmm... I posted a brief speech for your pleasure. *salutes*

[Althaia]

the general back and i have deformed and cannibalistic armies i have BUAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHaaaaaaaaaa*thunder and lightning stirke*

[Peanut]

if they are cannabalistic...doesn't that mean that they would want to eat and consume you? Perhaps you should execute them...unless you want to be roasted...

[Althaia]

um.. for one lets see they only obey me madame chairman temulin and pascal XDD they won't eat us but they will eat you *maniacal laughter* go my slaves...i mean soliders

[Dante]

But umm... Where did they come from? And how did you get catgirls again?

[Puritan]

And, for that matter, who are you fighting? The only fighting forces left in range are your allies, and the only enemies are difficult to pin down resistance organizations.