Gay churches

Postby **Christianotaku** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 9:02 am

Ok now what where they thinking!!! Gay churches? THEYRE MESSING WITH THE ORDER!!! YOU DONT GO MESSING WITH THE ORDER!!!

NOW EAT ME!!!!! :lol:

(personal joke if you watch Cartoon network youd probably understand)

No seriously what were they thinking?

Postby **Gypsy** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 9:31 am

This is one of those topics that has an explosive potential. While I feel like I know the general consensus of opinion here, further discussion of it may also involve crossing denominational lines - which we strive to a certain extent not to do. So, if this topic gets remotely out of hand, it will be taken from the boards without hesitation.

While the thought of gay churches initially sickened me, it now makes me very sad. Although I don't know first hand, I have a feeling that meeting together like that is not for the teachings or worship of God (because if they teach out of the Bible, you know they'll have to skip a great deal of scripture). I assume it ends up being a sort of group therapy and ultimately a large-scale justification of their sin.

Postby **Christianotaku** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 9:35 am

also in one of his letter speaks against all the sexaul sins including gayness..............

And why would people wanan be gay ????

I mean thats.......so...........so

GAY :lol:

Postby **uc pseudonym** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 9:50 am

Two immediate concerns come to mind. First, try not to be condemning of these people. We aren't trying to drive people away. They do things like this because they are thirsting for God, yet they feel pushed away by people in other churches.

Secondly, don't assume that these people just up and decided to become gay. Often it is somewhat of a wiring thing (though no studies have shown any evidence either way, so that's just an impression). Not that I think this justifies it in any way, shape or form.

Postby **Christianotaku** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:17 am

yes of course 2 men can love each other but not the way a man loves his wife the bible forbids it remember the bible talking about the different types of love????????????? A love of a man for his wife is excluded soly to marrage and between men and women. If god accepted gay love then adam and eve would probaly nto have been the only couple in the garden of eden since god created the women to help the man and to show how he wanted sex to be..........between a man and a woman

Postby **uc pseudonym** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:33 am

I hope I don't get flamed for this one...

What are married people? Essentially good friends who live together and can have Godly sexual relations (nevermind the vows part, I'm keeping it simple). With one little exception, it sounds like people in a dorm. To answer St. Peter's question: I think it would be really tricky, but not impossible. The question is whether fostering those sorts of feelings is really a good thing. I'm not sure either.

Postby **Mithrandir** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:54 am

I agree with Gypsy and uc pseudonym, but I feel like someone should give their point of view, even if I don't believe it...

There are two kinds of gay churches. One kind strives to move Christians that are in that lifestyle out of that lifestyle, the other a place for them to worship with people who have the same philosophy on life they have.

I can't immedietely pinpoint a theology that would concider the first kind a bad idea (after all, Jesus hung out with tax collectors, etc), so I'll explain the second as best I can.

If you start from the stand point that all sin is equal in God's eyes, then everyone in any church is a sinner. From there the rational end of the though process is, "We don't tell carol she can't come to church just because she is a gossip - therefore telling bob he can't come because he is gay would be bad too." Now this is not always done overtly, but how many of you can honestly say that your church would not feel uneasy about having a large gay demographic in church on sunday. At the very least, a lot of people would probably leave.

From there, it is easy to see why a gay church would spring up. To give them a place to worship without making everyone else uncomfortable.

It is entirely possible that the reason there are gay churches is that the 'real church' has not got a very firm grasp on the concept of 'Love the sinner, hate the sin."

Anyway, my $0.00.

Postby **Christianotaku** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 1:05 pm

Its not just good freinds when you marry someone you become one with them have a special bonding with their soul. the love is different and one that should only exist beetween a man and a woman..........

Postby **uc pseudonym** » Fri Jul 04, 2003 10:43 am

It is entirely possible that the reason there are gay churches is that the 'real church' has not got a very firm grasp on the concept of 'Love the sinner, hate the sin."

That's the cause of a lot of other problems, too...

On a side note, people often become really unbalanced about this issue. This is something to put it into perspective a bit. Jesus never speaks about gay relationships (not that this is justification in any way, shape or form. There are other passages for that). But he does talk about marrying after being divorced. What does he say it is? Adultry. On that issue, Jesus is pretty clear. So they're both wrong. (To cover my tracks, I'm not blaming anyone, nor insulting people who have married again, nor saying these marraiges can't be happy, nor becoming a Communist).

But how can we condemn and outcast people in a situation Jesus never mentions while ignoring one that he specifically condemns? Just to point out that it's a sin like any other... there's forgiveness.

Postby **shooraijin** » Fri Jul 04, 2003 6:14 pm

This is beginning to venture into the "how much of the Bible is applicable to modern life" department, which can be very polarizing. After all, I shouldn't be eating this BLT either, strictly speaking.

I sense this thread is going to lead into homosexuality in general, and not (merely) remain on gay churches.

First, Ban all the Trolls. . . · Postby **MillyFan** » Fri Jul 04, 2003 10:16 pm

I agree with UC's posts.

Postby **Rashiir** » Sat Jul 05, 2003 12:23 am

I agree with most of what has been said here. I think that the first step to stopping self-destructive sins is finding Christ.

Postby **Christianotaku** » Sat Jul 05, 2003 3:10 pm

the truth is yes homosexauls can love the way a man loves a women but the bible strictly probids it outside marriage and or courting

it is a sin to love a man the way a man loves a women

Postby **Mithrandir** » Sat Jul 05, 2003 4:13 pm

Christianotaku wrote:it is a sin to love a man the way a man loves a women

What if you are a woman?

*ducks*

Postby **Mithrandir** » Sat Jul 05, 2003 4:16 pm

Christianotaku wrote:the truth is yes homosexauls can love the way a man loves a women but the bible strictly probids it outside marriage and or courting

This seems to imply that if gays marry it's OK to be gay. I'm guessing you didn't mean that?

Postby **uc pseudonym** » Sun Jul 06, 2003 5:30 pm

kyubi-no-youko, I feel for you. I don't know what that can possibly mean to you, but I hope you understand.

Meanwhile, I have a bit of ranting to do. But I'm not gonna put up the rant smilie... it doesn't merit it.

I'll begin with an illustration. In the high school where I go, Advanced Chemistry is the toughest course that can be taken. Very few people make As in any given grade. When I first got into the course, I had a tough time getting my A. This is unusual for me. Also, I see others who I (it's a sin, I know) consider less intelligent and hardworking than I. This baffled me until midway through second semester, when I found out that almost everyone cheats. Simple sheet of paper, answers copied into a graphics calculator's memory... stuff like that. Even people I know are committed Christians were doing it.

Being competative is definitely part of my nature. I fight it back, so most people don't know, but inside I'm very much so. But because I'm not willing to compromise my morals, I will forever be at a disadvantage. Because of this part of me, everyone else will be able to make easier grades in the class. No matter how hard I work, others will be able to match me with little effort. It is because of this... wiring, we could say... that they will forever have this advantage over me?

Does everyone get what I'm saying? All of us want to sin, in many ways and forms. Some people's are just different than others. But it is my orientation to want to sin... and in others.

Postby **Christianotaku** » Sun Jul 06, 2003 6:58 pm

Basically what im talking about are the gay churches that the pators are gay and they accept gayness as not being a sin which is wrong.

the old testament talks about homosexaulity and how wrong it is

the new testament does to

It Is a sin no matter what you think.

a unconscous sin it can be thought

Postby **Technomancer** » Sun Jul 06, 2003 7:33 pm

Homosexual acts are considered sinful. Merely being gay is not. We all have our crosses to bear after all, whatever they may be.

Postby **Christianotaku** » Sun Jul 06, 2003 7:38 pm

the truth is being gay is not something your born with. the bible says even if you think dirty thoughts youve commited a sin

so why should it be anny different

if you think homosexaul thoughts its a sin

Postby **Technomancer** » Sun Jul 06, 2003 7:57 pm

the truth is being gay is not something your born with

Modern scientific understanding differs. The following article lays out some of the current thinking:

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/97jun/burr2.htm

If being gay is a sin in and of itself, then so is being straight.

Kyubi- I am sorry if I sound dispassionate. I honestly don't know what I could possibly say other than that you have my every sympathy.

Postby **Rashiir** » Sun Jul 06, 2003 9:30 pm

Genetics make you predisposed to homosexual temptation. However, just because you are drawn towards homosexuality doesn't mean you have sinned. All homosexuals can resist their temptation, though it may be difficult. I think we ought to help them realize they can escape it.

Postby **Stephen** » Sun Jul 06, 2003 9:35 pm

Personaly I do not go with everything modern science says...sorry I am a free thinker I guess. Being gay...the thing that makes being gay different then being straight....is quite simple...guy with guy and woman with woman...if your straight and married...having sex is fine. However if you are gay...it is never ok...so unless were talking gays that are celibate....(which there not going to be) Yes, being gay is a sin. I have a feeling that nothing is going to be gained from this thread since it has slid from speaking on gay churches to people bickering over what is sin in being gay....lets get back on topic or this thread will have lost its purpose...and be locked. Anyway....I think its sad how many churchs have allowed gay men to take the leadership area...its sad and sick in my opinion....

Postby **Rashiir** » Sun Jul 06, 2003 10:20 pm

I think that it is no different from allowing any other sinner (read: anyone else) to hold a leadership position, as long as they are trying to overcome it.

Postby **Stephen** » Sun Jul 06, 2003 10:30 pm

Most gay pastors are not trying to overcome it...there justifying it and living happy with it. That was what I was saying...

Postby **Christianotaku** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 7:24 am

We are born sinners yet we have the choice

you say gays cant help it its not there fault there gay

is it the same way with alocoholics killers and rapers?

did ythey have no choice did there genes force them to sin???

I think not everybody has control and choice over there actions.

and homosexaul acts and thoughts are sins

yet they have control

now think of it this way

75% of gay christians arent trying to struggle to no be gays....theyre trying to accept it as soemthing natural which it is not..

if god really was not against homosexaul acts and thoughts the bible wouldnt talk against it.

Postby **Master Kenzo** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 7:32 am

Here's a bit of Scripture:
Leviticus 18
1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'I am the LORD your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD .
6 " 'No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD .
7 " 'Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.
8 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's wife; that would dishonor your father.
9 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.
10 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your son's daughter or your daughter's daughter; that would dishonor you.
11 " 'Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father's wife, born to your father; she is your sister.
12 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's sister; she is your father's close relative.
13 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your mother's sister, because she is your mother's close relative.
14 " 'Do not dishonor your father's brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.
15 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son's wife; do not have relations with her.
16 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your brother's wife; that would dishonor your brother.
17 " 'Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.
18 " 'Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.
19 " 'Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.
20 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor's wife and defile yourself with her.
21 " 'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed [1] to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD .
22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
23 " 'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.
24 " 'Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.
29 " 'Everyone who does any of these detestable things-such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.' "

Postby **Christianotaku** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 7:46 am

theres another one in one of pauls letters i forget which book and verse

Postby **Technomancer** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 8:13 am

We seem to be drifting off topic here (something for which I certainly share the balme). However, I don't think c.o. has fully understood what I said:

What I was getting at was that the current scientific understanding of homosexuality indicates that certain individuals are genetically predisposed to this condition (which is also what Rashiir said). Being gay (ie. being physically/romantically attracted to the same sex) mostly arises from biological factors. This is not to say that it is an uncontrollable problem (any more than natural heterosexual impulses are). Being human beings we are capable of self-discipline and moral choice, and can overrule our desires. To clear up any confusion: I did not say that homosexual acts were proper.

Further information on this issue may also be found in:
LeVay, S. and DH Hamer. "Evidence for a Biological Influence in Male Homosexuality". Scientific American May 1994: pp 44-49.

75% of gay christians arent trying to struggle to no be gays....theyre trying to accept it as soemthing natural which it is not..

Care to back that up friend?

Postby **Christianotaku** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 8:20 am

yes i care to back that up homoexaulity is not natural

god created adam and eve as an example of what he wanted sex to be

Postby **Technomancer** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 8:28 am

My bad. I quoted too much. I was referring to the 75% figure.

Gay churches

Gay churches

um well paul

hm well

wellllll

well

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