Those who haven't heard the Good News, or lived before it...

[Rashiir]

Here's some questions my friend asked me:

"What do you think about someone who's never heard of Christianity or Jesus but still tried as hard as any Christian to live a moral and good life for his own reasons?"

"How about before Jesus' birth?"

"How come somebody who does the right thing for what is arguably as good a reason from a mortal's perspective, but simply stays with their reason and doesn't accept the christian reason... loses, but somebody who doesn't do the right thing at all but has faith... wins?"

I gave him a bit of an answer, but I told him I'd have to do some research and get back to him. I'm going to look through the Word, but I hoped you guys could help...

[Technomancer]

Like you I'd have to look at few resources to give a proper answer. However, the teaching of my own church is that it makes no statement regarding an indivdual person's final destination. It admits that those outside of the church (specific refrences are made in the Catechism to Muslims and Jews) have at least some knowledge of the truth (though imperfect), and have a role to play in God's plan of salvation. In other words we leave the possibility of their eventual salvation up to God, but affirm that the surest way to salvation is through the knowledge of Christ as expressed in the Church's teachings.

Great topic by the way, I look forward to hearing people's answers

[Rashiir]

Also:

"How do you reconcile that with the case of someone who's never heard of christianity, and the case of someone who heard of it but had no use for it?"

[Technomancer]

Origen- Contra Celsus
"[T]here was never a time when God did not want men to be just; he was always concerned about that. Indeed, he always provided beings endowed with reason with occasions for practicing virtue and doing what is right. In every generation the wisdom of God descended into those souls which he found holy and made them to be prophets and friends of God" (Origen Against Celsus 4:7 [A.D. 248]).

Justin Martyr 1st Apology
"We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes [John 1:9]. Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [Greek, logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them. . . . Those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason [logos] were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason [logos], whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason [logos] are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid" (Justin Martyr First Apology 46 [A.D. 151]).


Pope John Paul II- Fides et Ratio
24. In the Acts of the Apostles, the Evangelist Luke tells of Paul's coming to Athens on one of his missionary journeys. The city of philosophers was full of statues of various idols. One altar in particular caught his eye, and he took this as a convenient starting-point to establish a common base for the proclamation of the kerygma. “Athenians,â€

[uc pseudonym]

"What do you think about someone who's never heard of Christianity or Jesus but still tried as hard as any Christian to live a moral and good life for his own reasons?"

"How about before Jesus' birth?"

"How come somebody who does the right thing for what is arguably as good a reason from a mortal's perspective, but simply stays with their reason and doesn't accept the christian reason... loses, but somebody who doesn't do the right thing at all but has faith... wins?"

Question #1: That's a tough one. Can't help you there. I would say, however, that while they are not instantly condemned to hell, they cannot have a true understanding of morality.

Question #2: That's covered. Then, God had different ways for people to deal with their sins. These ways helped the people then, but they weren't God's final plan (Jesus). So they could be saved, according to the "old way."

Question #3: Because the requirements for heaven are absolute perfection. This is impossible. In the light of perfection, the first and second persons are both equally imperfect. Because of this, the only way to "win," as it was put, is to rely on the person in charge.

[Technomancer]

I had hoped to have this written and up on the board earlier, but my computer has just given me a sharp lesson in the value of saving one's work. These are my reconstituted (and no doubt debateable) thoughts on the mattter arranged as best as I can manage right now.

What these quotes (and others, esp. from the Wisdom books) tell us is that in us there is a "seed of reason". This has been called "Natural Law", or "Logos" by some, and forms an early and important part of how we approach other systems of thought. I am no theologian, so forgive me if I make some small errors in my explanation: Basically, as human beings we are created in the image of God, in that we are moral beings capable of making choices. This is something that is common to all of us, no matter our religion. Indeed, the universality of certain human values, and their role in other belief systems indicates a certain "memory" if you will of our natural state of grace before the fall.

Unfortunately, because of the fall, our nature is imperfect and we can neither fully follow this natural inclination to do good, nor ever come to the Truth through purely human faculties. For this we need divine revelation, which is our salvation through Christ. However, there are those who cannot accept Christ's revelation through a matter of circumstance. They can however, accept and pursue this imperfectly perceived natural law (or not). In the Gospels we are told "..as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me." (Mt 25:40). So they still serve God's plan. As for their fate, we teach that it is up to God, although one likes to think that He is merciful in such matters

Thos who hear and reject God's Word are another matter. There are those who reject it without full knowledge. This may be though poor instruction, a string of bad examples, or though "invincible ignorance". They have not understood what they have heard, and so these should be lumped with those whom I have discussed in the previous paragraph. There are those, however who do reject God's Word with full knowledge. These people are lost unless they repent and accept it (or so the Catholic Church teaches)

[Ashley]

I quoted a lot of scripture in this post. http://www.biblegateway.org has an online bible in several versions for free use.

However, there are those who cannot accept Christ's revelation through a matter of circumstance. They can however, accept and pursue this imperfectly perceived natural law (or not). In the Gospels we are told "..as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me." (Mt 25:40). So they still serve God's plan. As for their fate, we teach that it is up to God.

I'm not sure how much I agree with this. One thing is certain, the ONLY way to heaven is through Jesus Christ. Period. See John 14:6. As unfair as it may seem, there's no other way to heaven except through Him. I'm not certain precisely how it works, but somehow God is able to make Himself known to everyone, and give them a choice. Because to do otherwise would be unfair, and the very nature of God is to be perfectly fair and just; otherwise He wouldn't be God.

Still, God has a mind-boggling capacity of love, and is willing to go to any length to save the world. "For I know the thoughts I think towards you," he told Jeremiah. "Thoughts of good and not of evil" (Jeremiah 29:11) Of course, not everyone will be saved, scripture tells us that. God knows precisely who will accept Him and who will not; that's part of Him omniscence (see Psalm 94:11 and Psalm 139:2; these back up the fact that God can search a man's heart) . Consider Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:5, and Ephesians 1:11. All of these verses point to an idea of predestination.

One last thought...while I think it's great to talk about theology, there has to be a degree of respect too. We cannot know God's thoughts, so we can only try to justify or rationalize them to a certain degree. In fact God even told Isaiah in Isa.55:9, ""As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." It may seem unfair or even irrational to our way of thinking, but God has an intricate purpose for everything He does and allows.

"For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."-1 Corinthians 2:11

[Technomancer]

It is not a matter of questioning whether salvation come through Christ. We fully accept that our salvation comes through Christ's sacrifice on the cross. The question is whether his sacrifice redeemed only those who are aware of it ("Forgive them, they know not what they do" Luke 23:34).

I am not entirely certain how predestiantion works into this discussion, but our general perspective is that since God is outside of time, he perceives all our choices in the same instant, preserving our free will and his omniscience. Sirach 15:11-20 affirms that our choices are our own.

I fully agree with you that we cannot know the mind of God. I am somewhat miffed that you seem think my opinions so presumptuous. It was not my intention to give such an impression, and I do apologize if I did. I had tried to make it clear in my post that my opinions were just that.

[Ashley]

I am somewhat miffed that you seem think my opinions so presumptuous. It was not my intention to give such an impression, and I do apologize if I did.

Actually the comment you were responding to was not directed at you at all; rather, a general reminder to everyone in the thread, myself included. No accusations intended.

[Technomancer]

Ah. My apologies then.

[Technomancer]

Another thing that I did not ouch

...somehow God is able to make Himself known to everyone.

No argument here. With the help of God's grace we can come to know him. It is our choice whether we cooperate with it though. How does God make himself known though? What I have been talking about has to come from somewhere. This natural inclination is part of all of us, and serves to better illuminate our path to accepting God's Word.

Although times change and knowledge increases, it is possible to discern a core of philosophical insight within the history of thought as a whole. Consider, for example, the principles of non-contradiction, finality and causality, as well as the concept of the person as a free and intelligent subject, with the capacity to know God, truth and goodness. Consider as well certain fundamental moral norms which are shared by all. These are among the indications that, beyond different schools of thought, there exists a body of knowledge which may be judged a kind of spiritual heritage of humanity. It is as if we had come upon an implicit philosophy, as a result of which all feel that they possess these principles, albeit in a general and unreflective way. Precisely because it is shared in some measure by all, this knowledge should serve as a kind of reference-point for the different philosophical schools. Once reason successfully intuits and formulates the first universal principles of being and correctly draws from them conclusions which are coherent both logically and ethically, then it may be called right reason or, as the ancients called it, orthós logos, recta ratio.

Pope John Paul II- Fides et Ratio (Introduction)

[Saint]

First i would say this. being good and moral are not related to salvation, for even living like a "saint" is not perfect. "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Rom. 3:23

Christ is the only way, since the fall of man and to the end of human history, Christ will always be the only way. "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." John 14:6

I believe in theology the teaching that was before Christ birth is refered to as "shadow Christology," while we in this day live in 'historic Christology." It shold be noted that while there were many laws, 'rituals' before Christ's coming, salvation was not in these. These were visual aids and agian all were to point to the coming of a Savior. All before Christ were to trust that God one day would send them a Savior who would free them from thier sin. so its not any different, they believed he would come and we believe he did. its not works or 'rituals' -- just as we are commanded not to be "worldly," yet regardless our salvation is secure in Christ.

As for those who do not know God and have not heard of Christ. well, i believe in all men there is a part that believes there is something more, a creator or God. (this could be any religion, any where in the world... i will say its believing there is a God). well, some people believe there is a God and some go negative to this belief and at some point do not believe or reject God. if people are negative, they wouldn't accept Christ anyway, so God is not obligated to present Christ to them. yet if they are positive i believe God will provide them a hearing. there are examples of this in the bible---how about Jonah. God knows the hearts of men, if you are positive, he will reveal himself.

i would not say that every one in religion is positive to God. even if it seems 'good.' "there is a way that seems right to man, but in the end it leads to death." Proverbs 14:12 Religion is a word that i don't feel works with Christianity. for Religion is a system of works to reach God. we can not reach God, but he reached out to us thru Christ. so is Christianity a religion... i prefer to call it a Relationship.

[Technomancer]

True, we cannot be "good enough" to earn our way into heaven (please do not mistake me!). However, (from my perspective) we do need to act in a moral fashion (James 2:17). I believe, and so I must act, or else my belief counts for nothing.

Your comment with regards to the "shadow Christology" does little to illuminate our problem unfortunately. It does not address anyone besides the Jews who lived at that time.

Are you sure about the verse listing for Proverbs? I get something rather different ("In vain the mocker looks for wisdom, knowledge comes easy to the intelligent")

[Saint]

oh, thanks techno.

a little typo there.

as for James and the "faith w/o works" thing. i believe we have commandments as well, and we had better live by them. it is just that our works and the way we have lived our lives have nothing to do with Salvation. the James thing i hear all the time. an easy way to remember is that James in his letter is talking to Christians... not the unsaved. he is teaching about how we should live as Christians.

Other people besides the Jews were saved before Christ... however i wouldn't say many, but look at the world. sadly i think most out there are not looking for Christ. It was so bad in the past that God even wiped out the world except for one family. (Noah) so, whos to say that the people were not negative... well i don't really know, only God can know the hearts of man.

thanks agian for correcting me on the location of the verse.

[Technomancer]

No worries (just please be charitable with my own blunders!). As for James, it becomes a matter of fundamental approach. After all, I necessarily reject the idea of there being people who are saved (at least until after they're dead). Then again, since people have been bickering over the issue for 500 years, we are not likely to come to a resolution tonight. However, as I have said before, exhortations to live rightly are not unique to Christianity.

As for Noah...that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

[express]

I've been reading this thread, and there have been a lot of answers and still more to come. I've been reading that people believe that somehow God will reveal His finished plan of salvation to others that don't believe, and I do believe it is true that He will. However, we, as believers in Christ, are commanded to spread the Gospel and preach it everywhere. I have learned that it's not only the priest's job or the pastor's job to speak the Word of God and spread the Good News, but it's up to ALL of us to do it, no matter how hard it may seem. However, we can't do it of our own thoughts and motives but only by the Holy Spirit, lest we pollute the Word.

Obviously, and even the Bible says it, one of the ways that people will know the Word of God is to hear it; that's why we are to be witnesses of Christ. I'm sure all of you agree with this. God may chose also to miraculously reveal Himself to unbelievers; he did that for my dad.

[express]

I just say this because some may believe that most of the time, God gives an unbeliever a miraculous sign to reveal Himself and consequently, save them. That might be the case sometimes, but it says in the Word preach the gospel everywhere. Some will reject it, and others will accept it. I could make a reference to my life (read the thread “Prayer For My Motherâ€

[express]

16And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 17Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. 18When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 19Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

[express]

20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

I have already shared the gospel with her, but she rejected it. However, according to the Word, I will not hold part of the responsibility if God’s wrath is upon her because I warned her of her wicked ways. However, I still continue to uphold the gospel in the midst of her presence. I believe we must do this for others, as well.

I know this reply is quite long, but I just felt the Spirit leading me to share this with you all.

[Saint]

Thats true.

It doesn't matter if the people are negative or not. we are positive to God and Christ so we need to spread the good news. let the world be covered with the news of grace and hope that we have in Jesus.

[Gypsy]

Amen.