Concerning 'Bible Study'

[Michael]

There's been some hot debate in the bible study forum. Pretty much in all the topics everyone has a different view and are willing to dispute them. It's meant to be a place where we can study the Bible, but so many have such different views and interpretations it's become a debate forum. I would suggest it be closed.

[Ashley]

Can you point out a few examples, Michael? To my knowledge, it's usually relatively quiet and peaceful down there.

[Michael]

Look at Aibou's thread, look at UC's thread, granted nobody posts there much, everybody's got a different opinion and I'm not sure anybody's qualified to teach.

[true_noir_chloe]

Yes, I'm with Michael. I've popped in there and don't really see any Bible studies going on. Is there supposed to be a Bible teacher, or just everyone is supposed to share the Bible, or what they think they know of it? There are quite a few who have differing opinions on the Bible, and some who don't even believe it to be the true inspired Word of God. Mostly, I see arguments over what they believe.

Anyhow, I think it deserves a look at by you guys and some restructuring.

Perhaps, you could use a known Bible study and work your way through by printing that and then allow a period of time where everyone could comment on what they got out of that Bible section. However you go about it, I think it has to be steered by a reputable Bible teacher who believes the Bible to be the true Word of God and first approved by your staff or someone who knows the Word of God like cbwing or Oldphil and Eirewolf.

I would help you find a good study if you all needed it. I fall in line with Dallas Theological Seminary and most evangelicals when it comes to doctrine.

[Gypsy]

Well, here's the deal: I'm in charge of the Bible Study. I had an official CAA one going for a while, but then I was distracted and it got archived. I still have the study notes, and because of this thread, I will probably continue the "lessons." What I was really shooting for was a guided, Biblical discussions rather than a teaching. Actually, shooraijin designed the chat room for live Bible studies. There's even a Bible in there. I know that I'm not cbwing, Oldphil, or Eirewolf, but since I've not been doing my job, I'm open to and I'll accept any criticism or comments you may have.

There are rules for this forum, but I've been very slack in enforcing the rules. For this I apologize.

The rules are that anyone that wants to post a Bible study must clear it with me first. If I don't or can't respond within a couple days, then send the request to uc. From now on, I'll try to keep a closer eye on what happens in that forum. I'm sorry.

[true_noir_chloe]

Gypsy, after I wrote that note up there I thought, why didn't I write Gypsy's name? *heh* I think it's great that Michael brought this up. I was just wondering how it was run.

What type of Bible Study did you have planned?

[Gypsy]

Here are the first two segments that I actually posted:

http://www.christiananime.net/forums/showthread.php?t=553&page=1&pp=10

[Michael]

Well, I just don't feel anyone here is fit to teach. Yes, it's teaching. Not you, not Oldphil, not Eirwolf, not CBwing. The only one I consider fit is Rev. Doc, but he's never on. I don't want to hurt anyone, this's my personal opinion, I think the Bible Study is more trouble than it's worth. You probably won't close it down, I just felt I had to make this comment. Thanks.

[uc pseudonym]

Hmm... I just got delegated. But do it, I have no problems there.

Arguments? Yes, I have seen some. I'd agree Aibou's thread was probably borderline (I'll take any flak for that- I okayed it. But the original topic didn't have to be controversial).

But my thread? There are two types of arguments. Some areas of the Bible are subjective to a certain degree. Logical opinion can be supported on both sides. I wouldn't say that's the case.

If someone can show me a legimate counterposition to my thread, I'll close it instantly.

[Gypsy]

Well, I just don't feel anyone here is fit to teach. Yes, it's teaching. Not you, not Oldphil, not Eirwolf, not CBwing. The only one I consider fit is Rev. Doc, but he's never on. I don't want to hurt anyone, this's my personal opinion, I think the Bible Study is more trouble than it's worth. You probably won't close it down, I just felt I had to make this comment. Thanks.

Well, if you don't mind my asking, why do you feel that I am [as well as anyone else besides the Rev] not fit to teach?

[uc pseudonym]

I fight the urge to wince there, Gypsy. That certainly could become an argument. But considering the nature of this thread, I doubt Michael will do that.

[true_noir_chloe]

>>The Bible to be the only inspired, infallible, authoritative and inerrant Word of God. Through His Word, Christ is able to communicate to us and provide a guideline for our lives. The Bible also provides the ground work for all of life’s questions.<<

This is copied from your FAQ.

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. However, I also think, in somewhat agreeing with Michael, that you should incorporate a known Bible teacher's study in this thread, as well. There are great Bible studies, such as Experiencing God by Henry T. Blackaby and Claude V. King or any of the Beth Moore studies. I know she's been used in Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian and Episcopal women's Bible studies. There are so many others who are in mainstream, evangelical Christianity who could be posted.

My question is, would there be a legal problem with posting a known Bible study here?

Also, I think Gypsy is more than capable to lead a Bible Study after I read her "Light" Bible study. It was short, coherent and relevant. In a forum like this that might be the best way to go. I've led Women's Bible studies in the past - in the way past - now I am more comfortable enjoying other teachers who are more blessed than me.

Also, I think it's great you all are open to discussing this. ^_^

[EireWolf]

Well, I just don't feel anyone here is fit to teach.... not Eirwolf...

Well I'd be the first to agree with the last part of what you said.

I'm guessing you named all but Rev Doc because he is the only ordained minister you could think of? Even among ordained ministers, there is much disagreement on theology and doctrine. So many denominations are represented here on CAA... Honestly, I have never wandered into the Bible Study forum, so I don't know how it works. But I think anyone who endeavors to run a multi-denominational Bible study takes on a huge burden. You'll be hard-pressed to keep any and all denominational differences out of it...

Don't misunderstand me; I'm not suggesting we can the Bible study... just that we understand what we're getting into. I think mature Christians who love God and love each other will endeavor to refrain from arguing. But in a forum of this size, there's bound to be some problems.

Gypsy, I'm pretty sure you know that... and you have my vote of confidence.

[Gypsy]

Gypsy, I'm pretty sure you know that... and you have my vote of confidence.

Thank you. It means a lot coming from both you and true_noir_chloe.

You're right. I understand very well that we have many different beliefs here, and I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt to every member that they would discuss things in a mature attitude. Maybe it would help if I explained my role as a Bible Study leader.

I am not an ordained reverend. I don't claim to have an in-depth education on doctrines, translations, or origins of the original Greek and Hebrew language. By saying that I am the Bible study leader for CAA does not put my words or beliefs above another's. I am not trying to take any kind of pastoral position.

I am a Christian woman. I'm only 20 years old, but I respect the fact that many people here are older in wisdom and faith than I am. I'm very interested in encouraging others in their faith, and even more interested in learning from other's faith. I would like to share what I learn from the Bible with others, and in turn, hear what others learned. I'd like to create an environment where we can listen and learn from each other, regardless of the walk of faith or life we're in.

[Michael]

Where do I start? I have followed Rev Doc closely, and I was impressed with a lot of his views, he seemed to share the same biblical philosophy as my father. I trust my father and Rev Doc sounds reasonable. Also it helps that he's an ordained minister of course.

I'm going to catch an enormous amount of flak over this but I'm going to say it anyway; Women shouldn't teach men about the Bible. Merely the fact that you're a woman, Gypsy disqaulifies you in my opinion from taking a lead role. Give me a little while and I'll find the verse that supports this. I considered leaving the CAA because it was lead by a woman, however I chose to answer to Shatterheart and DJnoz instead of Ashley.

As far as the others, well, they wouldn't be my first choice. As I said, everyone has conflictiong views and interpretations, this forum was made for christian anime fans, there are other places to study the Bible. Just pick it up and read it is a good idea that is often overlooked.

I'm getting side tracked however, as I said, Bible Study is more trouble than it's worth.

[uc pseudonym]

I very much agree with what Gypsy said, and in many ways with true_noir_chloe. Spanning denominational differences is rather difficult... but I'd note that we've already done so. By proclaiming Jesus, we alienate some of the stranger denominations. By condemning homosexuality we alienate even more.

Of course, I strongly believe these things can be very obviously found in the Bible, hence no denomination has the right to decide differently. If we stick to very Biblical ground (because we all use the same [close enough] Bible), we theoretically shouldn't run into any bad ground. However, we may run into pop culture religion, and I believe that this is something we need to run into.

[Michael]

First Timothy 2:11-14 (NKJ)
'11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.
12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived fell into transgression, fell into transgression.'

This is not a 'Battle of the Sexes' and I dare the man to say so, this is truth. Women should not teach men. Women can (And should) have opinions, and can voice them, however what Gypsy has been doing is teaching.

[uc pseudonym]

Uh oh. I have a lot of things to say, but I hesitate in that I don't want to get into an argument.

... will respond better later.

Meanwhile, I have a question for you: does your church have no women serving in any Sunday School or telling Bible stories to children? In the passage quoted, these activities also fall under the word that has been translated as "teaching."

[Gypsy]

I'll be very honest with you, Michael. Part of me wants to rise to the occasion and debate your points. However, I'm not going to even touch the beliefs that you have presented here, short of pointing out that the last verse you posted has little to do with the issue at hand. They are your own beliefs, and what little experience I've had with these matters, no amount of arguing, especially from me, will begin to change your mind. I do hope that uc's logical question will encourage you to perhaps look at your ideas in a different light. I also think that this is something that's going to cause you many problems later if you carry this belief out in the extremity that you're showing now.

If the majority of CAA share's your view, I will humbly step down. If the staff thinks this is going to become a problem in the future, again, I'll let someone else take over. For now, the Bible Study isn't going anywhere, and you're welcome to not feel obligated to take part of it.

[Michael]

<Meanwhile, I have a question for you: does your church have no women serving in any Sunday School or telling Bible stories to children? In the passage quoted, these activities also fall under the word that has been translated as "teaching.">

A child isn't a man.

I've said what I meant to say. There is nothing more, if this causes me trouble down the road, so be it. I was wrong in one aspect, viz, Ashley in charge of the CAA, there was a female Judge in Judges, and she doesn't teach or make us do anything, so I was wrong there.

I'm not a crusader, I'm not a martyr, but this is what I believe God wants me to believe, if I'm wrong, then he'll change my mind, you're right. All I have to say to you is, how many times does the Bible say something before you believe it?

http://www.christiananime.net/forums/showthread.php?t=553&page=1&pp=10

That looks like teaching to me.

[inkhana]

Having given this a little thought (and reflecting on things I've heard and read in the past) I'm going to present a few articles. (anyone feel free to post in addition to this)

http://www.angelic.org/originalsite/canwomenteach.html

http://www.christiancourier.com/archives/womensRole.htm

http://www.nccg.org/092Art-WomenTeach.html

http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/theology/wom-tch.htm

http://www.christianitytoday.com/tcw/2003/006/10.28.html

http://www.faithnet.org.uk/KS4/Social%20Harmony/womeninchurch.htm

If my perusing of search engine results has any accuracy, it would seem that more people feel that women who are gifted should be able to exercise that gift. (I tried to present an accurate cross-section of results. (EDIT: I should add that just because something is general consensus doesn't necessarily make it right, but not necessarily wrong, either) There were other sites that were not in support, but I can't post those because they were in very, very poor taste). While I can't give a Biblical argument any better than these results show, I do think that God gives us all gifts for a reason and asking Gypsy not to post what God has asked her to write is asking her to toss His gift back in His face.

[Stephen]

I will make only one post on this thread. I have in my life been on both sides of this stance, the against women teaching, and for women teaching. And I belive in my heart that this is right. Most times God leads a group with a man. (Don't belive it, read your Bible) however when no man is
1.able
2.has the guts
3. is not to freaken lazy

He has a woman do it. I think rather then lashing Gypsy or claiming that you don't like her teaching to you...*shrug* some of us don't mind and enjoy her studies. Don't read them if you don't agree with them. For getting so "outraged" about a woman teaching you, (which I think you feel is wrong) how is arguing over the situation right? By you complaining what are you doing for the kingdom of God? Now call me crazy, I have been sick with the flu for over a week now (thank God I think I am coming out of it) but shouldent we all be a bit more thankful that someone like Ami is willing to take the time to write a study up? Or no...lets all complain. Part of being a nondenominational board means that somtimes people are going to get there toes stepped on. personaly, I know that CAA is not led by any one denomination...in fact the staff are all a great deal different. I myself have no denomination whatsoever anymore. There are many times things I hold dear to myself everyone else tramples on...I think rather then get indignant over somthing you don't agree with, why don't you pray that the Lord leads you to do somthing? What in your mind would be a better idea. Nobody does a Bible study which, no CAA would not roll over dead in a day without one...but, maybe...just maybe...the Lord could very well touch teach or in someway better you by somthing you read in one of Gypsys studies. But in the end its everyones call, read em. Don't read em. If just one member gets somthing out of any of it...its worth it all. I also hope that nobody is foolish enough to think that I am posting this to save face and help a fellow staff member. I am "hopefully" curbing an issue before we have one. Remember complaining is the easiest job in the world. Keep up the great work Gypsy.

[shooraijin]

For my part, I've always found Gypsy's work extremely insightful and well-researched, and I've learned much from reading her analyses. I think others have, too.

On the larger issue of women and teaching, I think that is far too large a topic for this thread, all opinions and biases aside, even though I personally strongly support women in teaching positions (people like my mother, and OldPhil's mom, come to mind). But whether the current setup is failing or not, I think the content has been wonderful thus far; we just need more of it.

[Michael]

Shatterheart: My reason for voicing my opinion was because she asked for it. Observe:

Me: Well, I just don't feel anyone here is fit to teach.

Gypsy: Well, if you don't mind my asking, why do you feel that I am [as well as anyone else besides the Rev] not fit to teach?

[Ashley]

this forum was made for christian anime fans, there are other places to study the Bible

That point right there tells me it is essential. The very heart of our mission is Christ-centered, so it only makes sense for us to have a Christian discussion area. Plus, what does that say about us if we have other non-anime related forums like tech and movies, but not a bible area? Isn't that telling God He's second place to us?

And Michael, the reason Steve posted what he did was because he has the same right to state his opinions as you do. He simply counter-pointed you and pointed out some biblical truths.

Lastly, like Steve pointed out...if the forum in question is doing someone somewhere an ounce of good from the Lord, it's worth stepping on a few toes.

[Technomancer]

I have no quarrel with Gypsy or anyone else posting Bible Study columns. If someone has something intelligent to say on the subject, I'll listen to them, and am fully free to disagree with whatever points I may. Good scholarship and writing is hardly the domain of any one sex anyways (I know quite a few women who have achieved, or are pursuing, advanced degrees after all). Of course, I may be biased, since the person responsible for msot of the religious instruction at my elementary school was a nun.

Anyways, I've always found Gypsy's writings to be informative.

[inkhana]

I'm very interested in hearing what your criteria for being able to teach are, Michael. The gender thing aside.

[Michael]

Ashley:
<That point right there tells me it is essential. The very heart of our mission is Christ-centered, so it only makes sense for us to have a Christian discussion area. Plus, what does that say about us if we have other non-anime related forums like tech and movies, but not a bible area? Isn't that telling God He's second place to us?>

No, I'm saying pick up the Bible and read it. A bible study forum isn't a bad idea, but this one has gone sour in my opinion.

<And Michael, the reason Steve posted what he did was because he has the same right to state his opinions as you do. He simply counter-pointed you and pointed out some biblical truths.>

He accused me of complaining.

<shouldent we all be a bit more thankful that someone like Ami is willing to take the time to write a study up? Or no...lets all complain.>

I rebutted him.

<Lastly, like Steve pointed out...if the forum in question is doing someone somewhere an ounce of good from the Lord, it's worth stepping on a few toes.>

Could you please clarify 'stepping on a few toes'?

Technomancer:
<If someone has something intelligent to say on the subject, I'll listen to them, and am fully free to disagree with whatever points I may.>

Sure, woman can have an opinion, and voice it,- but this ( http://www.christiananime.net/forums/showthread.php?t=553&page=1&pp=10 ) is teaching.

Inkhana:
<I'm very interested in hearing what your criteria for being able to teach are, Michael. The gender thing aside.>

Teaching in what aspect? Preacher? Bible study leader? Father? Mother? School teacher?

[inkhana]

>Teaching in what aspect? Preacher? Bible study leader? Father? Mother? School teacher?

As it relates to this comment:

>Well, I just don't feel anyone here is fit to teach.

Which, IMHO, is a rather hefty assumption given you don't really know most of us.

[Gremio]

Personally I enjoy reading what Gypsy has to say on things, alot of what she and others might say might differ from what I believe, but personally I find it nice to learn what others here hold true to, after all we are all friends. There are many interperations of things, but Jesus is always in the heart of it and thats much more important IMHO.

Having said that, I am against the idea of female pastors/rabbi's, mostly becuase I feel uncomfortable due to the jewish law prohibiting it. BUT far be it from me to denounce the possibility of G-d working through Gypsy, and I know he has and will continue to do so. G-d can use anyone, but people must be content in being used by G-d in their own way.

So um....bottom line, outside the Talmud and other commentaries, the bible does not explicitly say "Woman should not preach or teach", thats all up to interperation. I think its best, if we as friends all except that we all interperate this differently and just get along. After all there is no harm in anyone proclaiming G-ds truth.