Argument

[wiggins]

Hi guys!
I was arguing with a gnostic guy over Christianity when playing a game yesterday. I need a good Christian argument aginst fate and destiny and man's actions controlling them. It has to be reaslly strong becaus ethis guy reads the Bible and can fight me off with Bible verses. he says he has read the Latin translation... If anyone plays Tactics arena online... the guy's sn is antediluvian or something to that effect... If you guys want to try and influence him for Christ try it out...It was on the Great Lakes server. I'm not sure how the game worlks so amybe only people from the UK canplay on it against him. Then again, maybe I'm wrong. But it was tough trying to talk about God to him... so next time I play him, I need a good argument to try and minister to him. Thanks! He is also against Catholicism in particular because according to him, they took out all references in the Bible to God being a gender other than male, although I don;t think we can even assign gender to God, and he also says that Christians in general consider the pentagram as satanic and magic related when it really was something of beauty originally when it was first used in Greek religion. He's a tough one so I would appreciate some helpe to counter his arguments...Thanks again
Wiggins

[The Grammarian]

Fate, destiny, and man being controlled by his actions--there is a thread in orthodox Christianity that holds to this stringently (Calvinism), and most Christians in general hold to fate and destiny to some degree or another. As far as knowing the Latin goes, why's that matter? The Bible was written in Hebrew (OT) and Koine Greek (NT).

As far as Catholicism taking out non-masculine references to God, if he wants to get technical, the Jews did that first in referring to God as "Adonai," the Lord, even in place of the Divine Name. Even then, no Christian thinks that God is 'male,' strictly speaking--"Male and female created he them," after all, and in his image simultaneously--so the argument about God not being strictly male is silly.

As far as pentagrams go, doing research on them will give you all sorts of positions on its origins.

[uc pseudonym]

First off, I'd like to state that CAA doesn't support theological arguments. I'm going to let this stand for the moment, though that may change.

I'd need to know his arguments better. I'm not exactly sure what you mean about fate and destiny.

The gender issue has already been covered, but I have one thing to say about the pentagram: if he says it isn't a Satanic symbol now, he's dead wrong. I can get you Satanist sites if that'd convince him.

[Straylight]

The pentagram is the star which has the corner upward, and is the symbol of pagan religions such as Wicca. Satanism uses the inverse pentagram with the corner downward. One of my friends is a Wiccan - they place quite a bit of emphasis on this. Many Wiccans don't want to have anything to do with the satanist religion.

It's very easy to confuse though. One thing is certain - the pagans came up with the pentagram first, not the church of satan.

Now, whether you chose to consider pagans satanists is up to you. However I wouldn't recommend telling any pagans that they are satanists.

[Technomancer]

As far as gnosticism goes, I don't really know his arguments so I'll keep quiet. I do actually own a copy of the Nag Hammadi codex. Interesting stuff to read if you ever get the chance. Anyways, the main thrust of gnosticism isn't so much questions of predestination as discovering the "hidden" nature of the world, and escaping it. The Manicheans and the Cathars were probably the most well known sects. There is a book entitled "Gnosis", that you might wish to peruse. It's by a German whose name escapes me, and is considered the definitive text on the subject.

Anyways, it would be a mistake, as Grammarian pointed out to lay out the question of God's "gender" as a particular belief of the Catholic Church. The patriarchal view had been well developed in the OT. However, his point is in any case not well supported when you consider a reading of Wisdom (one of the books of the Deuterocanon), which describes Wisdom itself in feminine terms (although God is still masculine). In this case, we see a development of the idea of the Holy Spirit, which takes on a fuller form in later, Christian thinking. And of course, the feminine is hardly absent from Catholicism (and Orthodoxy) given the importance of Mary.

As for the pentacle, which is the upward pointing star, it has been associated with a variety of mystical traditions other than Satanism, and certainly older. For example, some early Christians used it, and it also crops up in the very old poem "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight". The very proper (and Christian) Gawain is given a shield with this device. The pentagram itself is simply an inversion of this venerable symbol, in much the same way that the inverted crucifix is meant to be.

[wiggins]

First off, I'd like to state that CAA doesn't support theological arguments. I'm going to let this stand for the moment, though that may change.

I'd need to know his arguments better. I'm not exactly sure what you mean about fate and destiny.

The gender issue has already been covered, but I have one thing to say about the pentagram: if he says it isn't a Satanic symbol now, he's dead wrong. I can get you Satanist sites if that'd convince him.

eh!!! Sorry UC... should I just let this thread die now?

[uc pseudonym]

Not yet... as far as I know at the moment you're still clear. And we'll lock the thread if we feel it doesn't need to continue.

Yes, djnoz is right about the pentagram. I too easily start calling the baphomet a pentagram as well (baphomet=up side down pentagram, in case you don't know).

[Michael]

It isn't a good idea to argue over the web, (I'm not critizising you) You just can't gauge what people are really thinking. I would pick up the Westminster Confession of Faith if I were you.

[Ashley]

Perhaps it would be better if anyone who has some helpful verses or theology for you can pm/email? That could keep your Christian support line going without anything breaking out. Think that would be ok?

[MasterDias]

About the pentagram/baphomet/whatever it's called and concerning the ancient Greeks: I believe one of the Greek philosophers(forgot which one) did assign certain mystical/spiritual qualities to the five-pointed star.

[Technomancer]

Well, baphomet is not the same as the pentagram/pentacle. It was a horned idol alledgedly worshipped by the Templars. The etymology is somewhat mysterious, although may be related to concepts from Sufism.

[Fsiphskilm]

(Jumps on Chair) AAAAAA stay awaaaaaaay from the

[uc pseudonym]

To Technomancer: the inverted pentagram is at times called the baphomet, because many Satanic groups use it to represent the being called baphomet you refer to. I probably should have been more specific about it. About current Satanism (I'm fuzzy on origins), I know this for certain. This is one area where I do know what I'm talking about.

[Quiet Hood]

If you heard someone say that you don't have destiny or fate. I wonder what is his/her purpose of saying that. I wonder what is his/her path? Guess he/she doesn't have one. What is he/she doing here anyway?