Feminism and men

[Nate]

Good point and i can see where you're coming from, but is that nurturing sensitive side to women just another aspect of our patriarchal society? It's how this society views women. I wonder, would women be sensitive if we lived in a matriarchal society instead of the patriarchal one we do live in? Would women be the same as they are now if the society which we lived in promoted tough macho women and sensitive caring, nurturing men?

It can be assumed from the curse that God placed upon Earth that that is indeed how the roles are played out. God cursed that which humanity held dear. For Adam, males, work was cursed. Work was to be Adam's greatest joy, but God cursed it so that it would be unfulfilling and difficult. What did God curse for Eve? Childbearing. Raising children was to be Eve's greatest joy, but God cursed it to be painful both physically and emotionally. From this we can infer that it is a man's natural role to be the "breadwinner" of the family and for the female to be the "nurturer" of the family. That's not to say that women can't have jobs, and that men can't take care of the family, because they can. But a woman's natural role as nurturer and a man's as breadwinner was established in Genesis. ^^

[Debitt]

Good point and i can see where you're coming from, but is that nurturing sensitive side to women just another aspect of our patriarchal society? It's how this society views women. I wonder, would women be sensitive if we lived in a matriarchal society instead of the patriarchal one we do live in? Would women be the same as they are now if the society which we lived in promoted tough macho women and sensitive caring, nurturing men?

Ultimately we are all one species. Humanity.

^^]usually[/b] exhibit the same stereotypically maternal behavior while having no clearly definied hierarchys or "social norms", which is what leads me to believe that God instilled certain maternal characteristics into all females) I'm not saying that this perception is correct when applied to all, or even half of the population. I was simply shooting for a general example that most people would be able to relate to.

[Slater]

Ok, I'm reading this thread from school and I see that y'all ignored my other posts. In reference to the first one, that verse is saying that men shouldn't crossdress or act womanly or anything like that. Yes, it's ok for a guy not to like sports. Yes, it's ok to not "be manly" according to what the world says. But if you're running around in the Man-Faye look (sorry if I burned anyone's mind's eye ^^; ), then that verse says that you're sinning.
And that wasn't the topic of the making of this thread anyways, so make another thread about it if you wanna talk about it.

Ok, back on the original topic, I chose the Biblical view of this matter, as do the vast majority of Christian women I know. Men and women, as stated in this thread earlier, are different, but not in any way is one greater than the other. God made man before he made women. This is the first difference, but He still made them and pronounced them very good!
Wives are called to, several times in the New Testament, submit to their husbands, and husbands are called to be the spiritual head of the household. These are key to a successful marriage. If a woman is heading things spiritually in a household, then problems follow. There are plenty of examples of this in our world today; it doesn't need to be argued...

Argh, time for class... I'll bring scripture into this and continue later... in about 3 and a half hours.

[Kura Ookami]

A woman needs to submit to her husband? Doesnt that imply inferiority?

I'm confused.

EDIT: I've said throughout this thread that men and women are equals. They are the same apart from their physical differences. Then why should a woman submut to her husband? Why should the husband be the spiritual master of the household? The man shouldnt be the master, but neither should the woman. They should be equals.

Ultimately i believe that a man and woman should love and respect each other with all their hearts. When you've got love and respect and you keep the lines of communication open you've got the recipee for a successful marriage.

[Ashley]

A woman needs to submit to her husband? Doesnt that imply inferiority?

Nope. It's God's command to women:

"Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body. "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband."
- Ephesians 5:22-33

EDIT: I've said throughout this thread that men and women are equals. They are the same apart from their physical differences. Then why should a woman submut to her husband? Why should the husband be the spiritual master of the household?

Because again, it's in God's word. Like it or not, men and women were wired different internally. By no means does this mean women are INFERIOR, they have equal capacity to serve God in their pre-determined roles as they were created to.

[Slater]

(English class, short responses at best
Edit: haha, so much for "short")
Yes. communication and love are required. But why is man the spiritual head of the family according to the Bible? It's just how God made things. It is in a way symbolic of how the Bride (the church of Christ) is to be headded spiritually by the Husband (Christ). God gave the roll of leadership for men, and that's just the truth. That's not at all to make women seem less important in any way. It is a responsibility that God gave us: to love our wives like Christ loved the church. That means that not only is a man required by God's word to be in a possition of leadership in marriage, but that he is required to love his wife greater than himself. This means that men are called to even lay down their very lives for their beloved wife if such a time arises in one's life.

now, I don't wanna leave room for misinterpretation. Yes, there are many men out there who wildly misinterpret it to mean that they can be abusive or non-loving to their wives or to use their position in any other way that is unbiblical. This is worse than evil; it's just plain wrong and sinful, and it's horrible when it happens. And it happens in different ways. Let's say a couple who's unsaved gets married and the woman gets saved but not the man. What does this mean? Does this mean that they should get a divorce? No. She needs to stay in that marriage in order to be a witness of Christ to that man and to any children they have. It can sure be hard that way, but in that situation, it's what must be for best.
But what if we take it a step further? What if the man is abusive to his wife? Then the woman should seek divorce, to escape from that possition of subjection. An unsaved man should never get between a woman and her God. If he tells her not to go to church, that's one area where the woman would be right to break away from her husband's will. It's just like the thing between Peter and the government... temporal authority is established to every human being in some way or another, and we are to follow that as long as it doesn't go against God's word, and if that happens, then we are obligated to follow God, not flesh. This is the case with women too.

And I'm gonna leave you guys with this for the time being... Women have specific roles and responsibilities in the house as well. They are called to be godly women and mothers to their children. This is huge! Mothers are in a sense in a position of spiritual leadership when it comes to their babies. So are fathers, as we see so often in the Bible that men are to discipline their children and see that they grow up well in the way of the Lord, but mothers have an equally important part. They are to provide passionate love that God has inbuilt to every mother for their children and to teach them what God's word says. If the mother doesn't do this, then there probably will be holes in that child's life that can never be filled.

In summary, just take a step back and look at the chain. It's beautiful. God gave the roles to men, women, and children when it comes to the family that we are to follow... The ultimate marriage plan in reality! If a man is called to be a leader in a woman's life, then the woman has to listen; and if the woman is called to submit to her husband by God, then the man must be godly. You can ask any pastor about it, and I'm sure you'll get the same answer... when both of those conditions are met, the best, most fulfilling marriage is the result... one that ultimately is centered not around the man, nor the woman, but around Jesus Christ and God's Word. And, brothers and sisters, isn't that what life is all about?

[Mave]

Ok, ppl tend to get pretty upset over this whole issue of submission (I've been guilty of it myself but I'm learning to get over it). Most of us act as if it's a bad thing to submit to someone who's been given authority by God. Should we?

I think it's our fleshly side that makes a big deal out of this. We are convinced by the world that we should be the master, we should take control, no one tells us what to do bla bla bla. Well, guess what. That was ultimate downfall of Satan. He wanted to do things his way and wouldn't submit to God. Guess Satan is more than happy to see husband-wife relationships go down to destruction along with him so many wives are told by the world, "One who submits to the husband is pathetic and stupid. Why should you be the one to submit to the guy? Bla bla bla [insert more rotten lies] "

Whoever said submission is a sign of weakness or inferiority? On the contrary to popular belief, it is a very noble and admirable character! For the wife, it calls for an amazing amount of faith and trust in God's authority and His choice of partner for her that her husband will love and guide her + family. For the husband, it equally calls for an amazing amount of faith and trust in God's authority and His guidance and wisdom in leading the wife and family. Different roles, same amount of faith and accountability. (Personally, sometimes I think the guy has it worse. He's accountable to God directly for both him and his wife. I tend to interpret that --> If the guy screws up, he has to take responsibility for two ppl. So, I think Christian men had better take their roles as good husbands and men of God seriously. As the appointed leader of the family, you're actually serving your wife and family. If that last statement surprises you, well....maybe you need to reconsider what God meant by love your wife as Christ loved the church.

Yeah consider how Jesus served and submitted Himself to the will of God. He obeyed even if it meant death. Can anyone say Lord Jesus was inferior because of His submission to God's Will for Him to die for us?

I cannot speak on behalf of all couples in this world. I'm not married yet so I haven't figured it all out yet but I generally believe that submission to one's husband indirectly reflects a woman's submission to God. Similarly, the husband's love and respect for his wife reflects his submission to God. If both submit to God according to the roles given, I can't really see what's the problem anymore.

[Slater]

Amen, Mave... or as we say in our Caliphornia-based church, "Yay Dude!" (err... Dudette! ^^; ) I can only skim what you said in this class period (Worship elective), but you hit the nail on the head.

[Kura Ookami]

Congrats Mave. You really hit the nail on the head with what you said there. In all my talk of equality, i was ignoring Gods word and Gods will. As well as ignoring an important aspect of love.

When you love someone you effectively give your heart to them. It's a submission of sorts. You open yourself up and become vulnerable. You share yourself with another person. Effectively when you love someone else you give them power over you and submit to them, but it's not just the woman who submits it's the man as well. They submit to each other and serve one another. In this way they have an equal relationship. The wife submits to and serves the husband and the husbband serves his wife and takes care of her wants and needs.

It seems so simple now that i see it. Thanks Mave for clarifying the whole submission thing for me. In the end it's all about love and the more you understand love the more you'll be able to understand Gods will and why it is as it is.

[true_noir_chloe]

Kura, you sure make a lot of these boy/girl threads.

Anyway, Ash and Mave hit the nail on the head. And, Ash even gave my favorite Biblical reference in Ephesians 5.

Submission is not inferior in any way, otherwise Jesus Christ would be inferior, and he is NOT. Thanks, Mave.

Also,

[color=black][font=Verdana]Girls, the best way to learn to be a good Christian wife is to get involved with other Christian women.

Guys, the best way to learn to be a good Christian husband is to get involved with other godly guys.

It's not dating, courting, trying to do everything that is mapped out in the latest best seller. BE A MAN AND WOMAN OF GOD. How do we do that? Hang out with the older ones who happen to be men and women of God in the church. Listen to them. Learn from them. Even your parents can give you some insight. Frankly, the way parents treat one another affects children more than anything when they date later in life and find their mate.

God has always used a mentoring philosophy - discipleship. Age is blessed with hindsight. We older ones have seen God's blessings, and I even look to women older than me to see even further into how God works. All through Scripture it talks of this.

I'm so glad to see the two young ladies I respect so much here, Ash and Mave come through with the wisdom of the ages. So, they have said everything I could have said and more. I have nothing to add.





[/font][/color]

[Kura Ookami]

Smith42, that statement is just ignorance of what this society really is and how much it has influenced our lives and not only our lives but the very way we think as well. Not to mention, it's easier to sit back and benefit from it if you're a guy or just accept it if you're a woman, right? The work feminists are trying to do is not yet done. While it is true that the feminist movement has done alot for women and their rights there is still a long way to go. Women need to be our peers so we look up to them as we do to men. How many female presidents have there been? Not one and i doubt that's because they havent tried.

Hitokiri, it's very possible that women arent physically made up to be firefighters, but there will always be exceptions in both male and female cases. Men can be lousy firefighters too. It's not just a female trait. If you forced every man in the world to work as a firefighter you'd prolly find that the ratio of bad firefighters would be the same in men as it is in women.

Humanity as a race has many different individuals and each and every person is good at certain things. I dont think you'll be able to find one thing that men are better at than women. Hmm now im thinking about it there may be one thing. The olympics. But the mind is a very powerful thing.

Consider this scenario. If you have an equal proportion of girls and boys doing a maths test and the abilities of the two genders are identical which of these three situations will the girls do as well as the boys or better?

1 - The girls are told that they will not do as well as the boys in the test because they are inferior

2 - The girls are told that there are boys taking the test and to do their best

3 - The test is totally even and everyone is told to do their best. Nobody is told anything about the other people doing the test.

The girls will do the best in situation 3. In both the other situations the boys will always come out on top even if the two genders are exactly even in ability. Why is this? You'd expect in the first case that someone telling the girls that they are inferior would make them rise to the challenge and come out on top wouldnt you? If that didnt work then surely situation 2 would be the best for the girls. Everything is even, right? Wrong!

Situation 3 is the one they'll do the best in because in the first two situations the girls think they should do worse than the boys subconciously because of the patriarchal society we live in says that they should. It's nothing to do with gender or ability. It's everything to do with how humans think and the power of belief.

There was a test done and it was found that a teacher was focusing more on the male side of the classroom than on the female side even though that same teacher said that they hadnt done that at all. Psychologically we as humans can be trained to think in certain ways

On the whole women are more nurturing thing. Women can get opregnant, men cant. When a woman is opregnant she's carrying a baby around with her 24 hours a day for nine months. Is it any wonder that women want to take care of their kids? They form a bond with their kids before those kids are even born. Men dont. I'm sure if men were the ones to get pregnant the same things would happen. If we spend alot of time with another person, as humans we form a bond with the person we spend alot of time with. It's a human trait, not a female one.

I understand the whole family thing. It's all about love and respect and following Gods will. What i dont understand, however, is how all this fits in with the workplace? My stance is of course that men and women should have equal pay for the same work and be able to choose to do any job they desire and have nothing standing in their way just because they are women. We dont have certain "roles" just because we are male or female. We are humans one and all. Why should we be defined as this or that because of what we have in our pants?

[Kura Ookami]

Okay. What does God want for women in the workplace? I think God should have the final word on this, don't you?

[termyt]

I can't remember the last (woman) I heard of running (for president).

There's been a woman candidate on the ballet in most states in every election for years. However, there's only ever been on female candidate on a major party ticket - Geraldine Ferraro. She ran as the vice presidential candidate with Walter Mondale.

Whoever said submission is a sign of weakness or inferiority?

That was a wonderful post Mave. Thank you. Beyond what Mave and Ashley have posted, I have little to add, so I will now attempt to stick both of my feet and a hand in my mouth. No, wait, I'm going to try to avoid that.

Feminism is a word that has been polluted in US society. It's hard to understand what one means when one, either male of female, purports to be a feminist. I believe in equal rights for all, but the mainstream feminist movement seems to be, at times, working towards reversing both the real and the perceived discrimination of the past. Not to make women equal, but to make men subservient.

Men and women are not equal. They are different. Men and women have different characteristics that make them better suited for different roles. This, however, does not make one inferior to the other. Our gender related social / legal problems stem from not understanding that simple principle. As soon as a rank is applied, it becomes natural to strive to achieve a higher rank. If no rank is applied, then, perhaps we could find more satisfaction in our roles.

My advice to the young people here: Follow in the path in which God guides you and accept the role He has assigned you. If that takes you out of some societal expectation for what you should be, so be it. You may have to work harder than others to achieve the same goals – that’s not fair, I know, but it’s the way it is. If you walk with God, then it does not matter whether people are fair to you or not and I certainly don’t want to get what I deserve from God. I much rather receive His grace, and that may not be fair.

[uc pseudonym]

When I returned to this thread and began reading through it, I began collecting a mental list of things to say. But as I continued reading, I found there to be a continually lessening need to say these things, eventually leading to only this post. I do have one thing remaining:

Everyone, keep in mind the original topic of the thread. I understand this is a big issue that contains tangents that may be worth pursuing, but if we go in all directions we risk never moving. So far I feel we've done a decent job.

[Kura Ookami]

Nice post termyt. I agree with you've said after some thought. Whatever we do we should submit to God and do as He tells us to do and try to understand His will better in the process.

It would be better if there were no rank applied to the genders. The world is not a fair place and that saddens me because i want the best for my children be they male or female. I dont want any daughter i have in the future to be at a disadvantage just because she's female. That is why im standing against this patriarchal society we live in.

On an individual basis statistics and stereotypes dont work. Male or female we have all been given a duty to fulfill by God. That is, ultimately what we should focus on. Gods will in our own lives.

For myself gender issues have always affected me. It's hard for me to see people treated unfairly because they're different. Nowhere in the bible does it say that one gender is superior to the other.

However, Temyt does make a good point. If everything was fair and everyone got what they deserved then we wouldnt like that at all either. Sorry for causing so much trouble with this issue. It's one that is close to my heart.

[mitsuki lover]

When one is the only male in a family of three children and have two older sisters one quite early and quickly learns the importance of gender equality.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

who is this smith42 person?

[Lochaber Axe]

The wonderful women of God here have already clarified the truth about marriage, so I won't get too far into it.

However, the word "humble" has a definition that says, "exhibiting deferential or submissive respect". Submit has as the definition to surrender or yield to authority, but it also says "to commit (something) to the consideration or judgement of another".

A man must be humble to God as in surrendering to his authority, but there is also that he must give that something to God's judgement. That is what prayer is, for what we are called to do.

As the wife submits, so is she humble to her husband. He must dwell upon her words with his judgement. There is a break in the law when one of these sides doesn't do the sacrificing of pride.

humbleness= sacrifice= love


On the world being fair and all that, here is an analogy that is suitable:

A man wishes to move a rock to one side of a lever, yet it is stuck in the middle and does not move. After a while of pushing, he finally props one end up with smaller rocks. The rock slides to the far side. With a hammer, he strikes the pillar of rocks down and watches as the rock slides down to his feet where he intended it to be.

[Stephen]

who is this smith42 person?

If someone vanishes, Its for a reason. Consider him smitten.

[Fsiphskilm]

Making a Point in 3 simple statements

#1) there's a reason why men's and women's events are seperate at the olympics

#2) firefighters are more likely to be men (and should be) and secretaries are more likely to be women (and should be)

#3) The bible says women should be submissive to their HUSBANDS, and Husbands should listen and take care of their wives.

The Manager and the Worker are both equally important, the manager still works and over-sees the work of the employee, while the employee also works and is submissive to the manager, without a manager, the employee won't get far, and without an employee one cannot be a manager of anything. Both work together

God wires everyone differently though - what about those males who aren't "wired" to lead, or females who are "wired" to lead? They're not mistakes by God, obviously.

I'd say God wires your soul, but not your body or personality nessessarily, a lot of that has to do with our genes, our parents, and how we grew up.

I think it's funny to find women who say "I am happy with what God gave me"... funny thing is, God has nothing to do with your acne, below average breast size, and left eye that is more open than the right one. It's called Genetics, more like... "What your parents gave you".

[Photosoph]

#3) The bible says women should be submissive to their HUSBANDS, and Husbands should listen and take care of their wives.

I really agree with that. Both sides have something to give, and something to gain.

[Hoshika]

Making a Point in 3 simple statements

#1) there's a reason why men's and women's events are seperate at the olympics

#2) firefighters are more likely to be men (and should be) and secretaries are more likely to be women (and should be)

#3) The bible says women should be submissive to their HUSBANDS, and Husbands should listen and take care of their wives.

The Manager and the Worker are both equally important, the manager still works and over-sees the work of the employee, while the employee also works and is submissive to the manager, without a manager, the employee won't get far, and without an employee one cannot be a manager of anything. Both work together


I'd say God wires your soul, but not your body or personality nessessarily, a lot of that has to do with our genes, our parents, and how we grew up.

I think it's funny to find women who say "I am happy with what God gave me"... funny thing is, God has nothing to do with your acne, below average breast size, and left eye that is more open than the right one. It's called Genetics, more like... "What your parents gave you".

I'm just going to touch on 1, 2, & 3 and the manger/worker relationship. I'm not even going near the last comment. :p

Point's 1,2,&3 can be answered with one just one point;

Men usually have a longer reach than women and more upper body strength and really more muscle mass in general. There are exceptions but that's basically how it is for the most part. Physical strength has nothing to do with who is the head of the family and not without proper evaluations should it be determined who gets put on heavy lifting detail male or female.

The manager/worker relationship has nothing to do with the husband/wife relationship. The husband is not the boss, lord, master, or what ever term has similar meaning to these three of the wife he his her partner. Seeing how many have already pointed this out in detail I'm just going to say I agree with them fully and do not believe the bible in any means such a thing where the word "submit" is used in reference to men and women.

[Kura Ookami]

If this post is too political, I can edit it. War is a political topic though and this post is about war and gender roles.

Why do men fight in wars and women die in wars? Take a look at recent wars and the trend is continuing. Civilian casulties are the greatest percentage of all casulties in war. In modern conflict Kofi Anan said, quote: “Women and girls, neither its irritators nor its perpetrators, suffer its impact disproportionately. They are specifically targeted to humiliate the men of the society, to break down their resistance and to achieve ethnic cleansing. Steps must be takenâ€

[Yojimbo]

[quote="Kura Ookami"]If this post is too political, I can edit it. War is a political topic though and this post is about war and gender roles.

Why do men fight in wars and women die in wars? Take a look at recent wars and the trend is continuing. Civilian casulties are the greatest percentage of all casulties in war. In modern conflict Kofi Anan said, quote: “Women and girls, neither its irritators nor its perpetrators, suffer its impact disproportionately. They are specifically targeted to humiliate the men of the society, to break down their resistance and to achieve ethnic cleansing. Steps must be takenâ€

[kaji]

If balance and order are what you are looking for, then why do you start threads like this that stir up strife amongst members?

The problem isn’t man or woman. The problem is the evil that was brought into this world through sin, allowed by God (as part of His judgement on this cursed world) and encouraged by satan.

-kaji

[Kura Ookami]

If balance and order are what you are looking for, then why do you start threads like this that stir up strife amongst members?

The problem isn’t man or woman. The problem is the evil that was brought into this world through sin, allowed by God (as part of His judgement on this cursed world) and encouraged by satan.

-kaji

Why are wars fought at all if we want peace? The answer is simple. We fight wars to gain a peace worth living. Slavery is peace. Geneocide is peace when you think about it. Is continually killing people for whatever reason acceptable? Nope, and that's why we fight wars. Not merely for peace but for a peace worth living.

Sorry im just stating my opinions on things. I believe in freedom of speach. I believe in freedom fullstop. Did you know that slavery was once taken for granted? That it was seen as enevitable? It's the same today with war. War is seen as enevitable and i dont believe that it is.

One day we'll put an end to all war. Am i the only man here who believes in the virtues of feminism? Who believes that men and women are equal and should be treated as such? Am i the only one who can see how destructive this patriarchal society we live in is to both genders?

[Myoti]

The Manager and the Worker are both equally important, the manager still works and over-sees the work of the employee, while the employee also works and is submissive to the manager, without a manager, the employee won't get far, and without an employee one cannot be a manager of anything. Both work together

That's the best analogy I've heard yet.

One day we'll put an end to all war. Am i the only man here who believes in the virtues of feminism? Who believes that men and women are equal and should be treated as such? Am i the only one who can see how destructive this patriarchal society we live in is to both genders?

Where have you been?
First off, no. War will not be ending anytime soon. There will even be war in the end times, it's biblical. War will not truly end till after the end of the world, when a new heaven and earth have been created.
Second, go back and read every single post. Many people here have made good very good examples on this that make sense and answer all of your questions.
I'm not trying to sound harsh or anything, but I feel this is beginning to get out of hand.

[kaji]

Why are wars fought at all if we want peace? The answer is simple. We fight wars to gain a peace worth living. Slavery is peace. Geneocide is peace when you think about it. Is continually killing people for whatever reason acceptable? Nope, and that's why we fight wars. Not merely for peace but for a peace worth living.

No, peace exists before conflict and after, but no one INITIATES conflict in the name of peace…

Sorry im just stating my opinions on things. I believe in freedom of speach. I believe in freedom fullstop.

I do not believe in the abuse of freedoms that then become a liability to others.

I also agree with Myoti. Please go back and read the responses that people have lovingly prepared for your questions. Many of which are very insightful and extensive. That is, if your aim is to truly gain a greater understanding. If your only goal was only to state your unwavering opinion, then what more use is there?

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Serial killers are 100% male. 100% middle class or non-poor males. 100% stright males.

i beg to differ

A Women can be a serial killer too

(just to let you know that movie is based on a TRUE story)

edit: no this aint the anime that i love... this is another movie called "Monster"

[Ashley]

You know what? This thread is going nowhere FAST. All kinds of Biblical evidence has been given, and the women (the ones chiefly concerned with the whole matter) have spoken. So there's no need to further bicker and banter over the topic, especially dragging in politics and other issues just to shake the boat. So this thread is being closed.

Further questions? Go read your bibles.