christian outsider...

[SquareEnixGamR]

ok...here it goes.

sometimes i feel like i shouldnt be classified as a christian. i know i AM a christian, but some of the things that christianity teaches feel wrong to me.for example i dont believe that any non-believer despite their circumstances goes directly to hell after they die-no questions asked. i dont understand how such a loving god could do such a thing. last month i went on a missions trip to nicaragua with my senior class. we saw some really poor neighborhoods and some really sick people. i remember there was this one little girl who i saw with her mother. the little girl's feet were bleeding from walking on rubble all day and yet she still managed to have a smile on her face. she obviously has a pretty bad life and it probably wont get any better. i looked up into the sky and said to myself..."would You really condemn such an innocent little girl to Hell, if she were to die at this very moment??" i really dont think such a loving and just God would do such a thing.....does anyone else see where im coming from? since i dont believe this, does this mean i cant possibly be a christian??

[Ashley]

You aren't an outsider for questioning those things. All of us have questions, deep, thought-provoking questions, we struggle with. We wonder if God is so good, why is the world so bad? Why does He allow such horrible things to happen? The questions you raise are no different than those that every believer at one point or another has to ask.

Job and Thomas were no exceptions. Heck Peter questioned Christ too, and he KNEW Him on earth.

The key is understand what the Lord told Job. Were you there at creation, the Lord asked Job. Did you create everything, did you set the universe in its place? No? Then we need to sit back and realize that God is God, not us. His thoughts are infinitely higher than ours. If God were a man, yes those problems would be real humdingers. But God is NOT man. God is God, the supreme being of the universe. Acknowledging that sometimes means settling yourself with the fact you cannot and will not have an explanation for everything. Learn to trust in His judgements and commands, don't try to be God yourself.

Realize this too. God is perfect, is He not? Then that means He would not let that little girl die without giving her a chance of salvation. I'm not going to get into age of accountability or theoretical nonsense, but the logic holds up. Even Romans states "where there is no law, there is no condemnation". It's a theological quagmire to get into, but the verse is there for the wrestling. So however you believe God works, rest assured He will work in that girl's life to give her a chance at salvation.

God doesn't want you to be confused or struggle--the answers you seek are in His word for the finding. But He doesn't want you to play God, either. You have to realize you may not like what you hear, but that won't change the way He works. But trust me, if you ask the Lord for understanding and a malleable heart, He will grant it to you.

[uc pseudonym]

Theology wouldn't be helpful here, but I think that I may have something to say to you. It may not be long, but I hope it speaks to you where you are.

There is a significant wing of theology that holds a more inclusive belief of God's salvation (CS Lewis included). But ultimately, we do not truly know what God will do; we are not Him, and we cannot judge humanity. This issue always brings to mind part of Genesis 18: "Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Part of our faith is that we can trust Him to be fair in His judgement - fair on a level that we cannot entirely understand.

[Arnobius]

[quote="uc pseudonym"]Theology wouldn't be helpful here, but I think that I may have something to say to you. It may not be long, but I hope it speaks to you where you are.

There is a significant wing of theology that holds a more inclusive belief of God's salvation (CS Lewis included). But ultimately, we do not truly know what God will do]
My own religious tradition says that those who, through no fault of their own don't know the truth, can be be saved (through Christ even though they don't know Him) but because of the temptations of the world and the temptations to despair have a harder time of it, so it is important for Christians to evangelize the world.

Hope that wasn't out of place to put here.

[agasfas]

for example i dont believe that any non-believer despite their circumstances goes directly to hell after they die-no questions asked. i dont understand how such a loving god could do such a thing.

How I see it is that God gives us free will, and with that free will we makes decisions. We can either choose to accept God or not. How can we blame God for our own doing? He freely gives us the chance and time to allow Him into our hearts. And sure bad things happen, it's life and nothing humans aren't perfect. Is it fair someone drink then drives, then kills an innocent person. No it's not fair, but w/ free will people can either do good or harm. We are not robots and God made us so we can make our own choices. How can love be for God be "love" if it was forced?

Also, I'm sure God knows how all those poor people who suffer feel. When Jesus was on earth he faced many hardships. He was teased, beaten and killed on the cross. Did He deserve that? Absolutely not. When things go bad it's so easy to blame God... but we are the ones who rebelled from God's way. Why not try blaming Satan and humans for allowing such harsh things to happen?

To me a "loving God" gives his people the choice, to me a loving God would do what He could to save us. A loving God would forgive us and comfort. God does all of that. People fail to relized that with Good, there needs to be boundries and rules and someone has to enforce such. If God made exceptions for everyone then people would do what they wish. Actions need to have consequence; and A fair God must be Just.

Edit:
Also, only God knows how he Judges someone. I don't believe God ever mentions whether or not he judges everyone in the same exact manner. But from readings, I know God does what He knows is right. I doubt God would send a baby to hell w/o knowing the concept of good or evil, Heaven and hell etc... Personally anyone who states things as 'God's Will' knows little because only God knows. When it comes down to it, the bible is a message of God's love for us, not of hate or unforgiveness. At least that's how I see it.

[Yojimbo]

I honestly wouldn't worry about the girl's salvation as far whether she's baptized or not. South America has the largest Christian population on any continent. The CIA World Factbook says that Nicaragua's population is 85% Roman Catholic and 15% Protestant. So the number of non baptized Christians there is obviously extremely low.

Along with Anime Heretic and myself we Roman Catholics believe that God will not condemn an innocent person through who no fault of their own does not accept Christ. Those not saved who still live a moral and Christ-like life I do not believe will be condemned because He is just.

But agasfas some don't have that chance. An aborted baby, someone in Togo Africa who's never even seen a Bible, a Buddhist in Nepal. There obviously aren't enough missionaries to where we they can go to every corner of the earth and preach the Gospel. But there are still moral and good people out there who have not heard the Word and there are some who might never. It's so easy for us to sit here in a nation with over half of it Christian, where more than likely almost every person on this site was baptized as an infant and say it's their fault for not accepting Christ before they died. Of course it's still very important to spread the Word to non Christians so that they do get that chance.

[Ingemar]

It is dangerous to simply accept a universalist theology. Suppose there were no greater consequences for our actions in life? Then we could do whatever we please. For some, "whatever I please" is beneficial for others, but it only takes ONE person who "misuses" this Crowleian or Sartrean freedom to ruin life for the everyone else.

Nor do I side with the atheists, who deny an afterlife, and generally hope that the misdeeds of a person will be repaid to him while he is alive. I'll get into that later. But I'll get to your objection. I don't believe there is any reason for God to condemn a person for not knowing Him due to circumstances he cannot control. I of course do not have answer or explanation to what will happen to said person, but as religious Jews, who have no definite knowledge of the outcome of anything, say, "Blessed be the True Judge." Whatever the outcome is.

[Yojimbo]

It is dangerous to simply accept a universalist theology. Suppose there were no greater consequences for our actions in life? Then we could do whatever we please. For some, "whatever I please" is beneficial for others, but it only takes ONE person who "misuses" this Crowleian or Sartrean freedom to ruin life for the everyone else.

Nor do I side with the atheists, who deny an afterlife, and generally hope that the misdeeds of a person will be repaid to him while he is alive. I'll get into that later. But I'll get to your objection. I don't believe there is any reason for God to condemn a person for not knowing Him due to circumstances he cannot control. I of course do not have answer or explanation to what will happen to said person, but as religious Jews, who have no definite knowledge of the outcome of anything, say, "Blessed be the True Judge." Whatever the outcome is.

Oh I agree. I personally do not believe that baptism is a free ticket to Heaven and your actions in life do not affect your salvation. What I meant by my comment on the girl's salvation was that I was assumed SquareEnixGamr believed she wasn't saved as in she wasn't baptized a Christian. And like I said she more than likely is so there's no reason to worry if she's heard or will hear the Word or not living in a country almost entirely Christian.

[Arnobius]

I don't believe there is any reason for God to condemn a person for not knowing Him due to circumstances he cannot control. I of course do not have answer or explanation to what will happen to said person, but as religious Jews, who have no definite knowledge of the outcome of anything, say, "Blessed be the True Judge." Whatever the outcome is.

Well we seem to be in agreement on the essentials if not the details then. We too believe God will be just and merciful to those who don't know God due to circumstances out of their control yet do their best to folow their conscience as best as they can.

[GhostontheNet]

Hmm, this is amusing, its like a remix of this old thread; http://www.christiananime.com/showthread.php?t=14444&page=1 ; my thoughts there.

[Arnobius]

Hmm, this is amusing, its like a remix of this old thread]http://www.christiananime.com/showthread.php?t=14444&page=1[/url] ; my thoughts there.

Hadn't seen that thread, but the idea of post mortem preaching has been speculated before by some theologians of my denomination-- particularly speculating of Christ doing so to those who died before Christ's resurection, so I don't have a problem with the idea per se. Perhaps that is the method God uses for those who don't know Him through no fault of their own.

Speculative theology does tend to tick people off though, doesn't it?

[Ingemar]

Oh I agree. I personally do not believe that baptism is a free ticket to Heaven and your actions in life do not affect your salvation. What I meant by my comment on the girl's salvation was that I was assumed SquareEnixGamr believed she wasn't saved as in she wasn't baptized a Christian. And like I said she more than likely is so there's no reason to worry if she's heard or will hear the Word or not living in a country almost entirely Christian.

By "universalist theology" I mean that ANYONE and EVERYONE will end up in Heaven. I don't mean that declaring your Christianity is a free ride (that makes me want to invent a new term--freeloader theology).

[true_noir_chloe]

It would do you good to read over Ashley's response and take it to heart. She is a true Christian and has been called to a life of service to our Lord. I wholeheartedly agree with her response so far on this thread.

I can only add this:

God loves more than any of us can comprehend. To think that you or I can actually have a bigger heart and be more concerned for that little girl in the streets is wrong. God sent His own Son to die a horrible death on a cross, to live in a fleshly body, though He Himself was God, and be mocked, scorned, spat on by men. Men? Human beings who are barely worthy to lick His feet. Why? Because He loves us. His love is manifested daily with how He puts up with our whining and complaining over such stupid things. Throughout history He has continually bore with us, and will until Christ comes again.

Yes, please read over Job and then read through how Christ was and is. He is a loving God, so please don't think that you actually care more for anyone on this earth than Him. His promises are true. Trust Him to be Who He is. You do your part and continue to be a witness, one-by-one.

You might want to pick up a book I've started reading, "The Case for Faith," by Lee Strobel, which handles those exact questions you asked. I recall hearing these questions over and over again on college campuses when I worked there. It's funny, there is nothing new under the sun. ^____^

An excerpt from the book, while the author discussed Abraham (pg. 236): "He was called the 'father of the faith,' but it wasn't that he never doubted, it wasn't that he always did the right thing, it wasn't that his motives were always pure. He failed on all three counts. But listen - Abraham never gave up on his will to follow God. He said, 'I'm going to trust him - will not the king of all the earth do right?' He wouldn't give up on God. And one definition of faith is that it's the will to believe. It's the decision to follow the best light you have about God and not quit."

God is a personal God. He is either Your GOD or He is not. You have to make that decision. You need to go to His Word and learn of Him and you need to pray and let His Spirit speak to your heart and answer these questions that frustrate you.

Do you believe Him to be the loving Savior or not? Please, grow in His grace and knowledge and then go out and be a witness - I see you definitely have the heart for it.

(that makes me want to invent a new term--freeloader theology).

I'd love to see that one added as a theological term.

[S1lentOp]

I'm a little... suprised... at some of the repsonses I've read. I'd like to try and clear a couple things up.

First off. The Bible nowhere specifically mentions an age of accountability. It is commonly assumed that children are automatically taken to heaven when they die until they reach the point in which they are able to make a decision for or against Christ. King David had a child die, and he comforted himself with the thought, “Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to meâ€

[Arnobius]

You are free to believe as you wish, but please give that respect to others as well.

Not everyone is in agreement on any of the points mentioned

[Mithrandir]

Yes, taking AnimeHeretic's words to heart would be wise. You are free to believe what you want, but this is not the place to debate theology. If you disagree with Catholic Theology, fine. But don't take those little jabs at them on this board. See that link at the top of the page to "Theology Web?" Go there and make your "points."





It's been nice knowing yah.

[SquareEnixGamR]

guys thanks for your input on this situation. anime heretic would you mind telling me a bit about the catholics view of salvation in comparison to the christian view? ( i myself am a baptised catholic although i never knew much about their beliefs since i was placed in a christian school.

[Arnobius]

Probably a topic best done by PM to avoid debates. Feel free to PM me and let me know what you want to know, and I'll do my best to answer.

[Yojimbo]

By "universalist theology" I mean that ANYONE and EVERYONE will end up in Heaven. I don't mean that declaring your Christianity is a free ride (that makes me want to invent a new term--freeloader theology).

I know you weren't I was agreeing with you.

I'd also be happy to answer any questions you have in a PM as well SEG being a Catholic myself. But AnimeHeretic is probably the better person to ask first. But I will say one thing here that seems to be a big misconception with some Christians about us. Some believe that we Roman Catholics aren't Christian but an entirely seperate religion. We are ALL part of Christianity as a whole but it is our little differences that seperate us into Catholics, Baptists, Anglicans, etc.

[SquareEnixGamR]

God predestines no one to go to hell;for this, a willful turning away from God is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":621


Article 12 chapter 4 of the catechism of the catholic church. this helped me alot guys thanks!

[Arnobius]

[quote="SquareEnixGamR"]God predestines no one to go to hell]
Glad you found a source you trust to help you

[Ashley]

Well, from a protestant (Baptist) point of view, we have roughly the same idea. That it is God not sending us to hell from the get go, but rather us rejecting his mercy FROM hell that sends us there. Judgement, then, is a rejection of mercy. The problem, or rather for us the blessed solution, is there's only one way to NOT reject mercy, and that's through salvation in Jesus Christ. Funny, we actually had this sermon tonight. The verse Pastor Sonny so aptly quoted was Ezekial 33:11 : "Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?' "

Actually, you might check out all of Ezekial 33, SEG. It talks a lot about wicked men hearing about sin, or not hearing. It might bear more light on your question.

Also, I would caution too that people please not turn this into a Prot. v. Cath debate, that's not what this thread was created for. So please be nice, ok?

[Arnobius]

Well, from a protestant (Baptist) point of view, we have roughly the same idea. That it is God not sending us to hell from the get go, but rather us rejecting his mercy FROM hell that sends us there. Judgement, then, is a rejection of mercy. The problem, or rather for us the blessed solution, is there's only one way to NOT reject mercy, and that's through salvation in Jesus Christ. Funny, we actually had this sermon tonight. The verse Pastor Sonny so aptly quoted was Ezekial 33:11 : "Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?' "

Actually, you might check out all of Ezekial 33, SEG. It talks a lot about wicked men hearing about sin, or not hearing. It might bear more light on your question.

Also, I would caution too that people please not turn this into a Prot. v. Cath debate, that's not what this thread was created for. So please be nice, ok?

Hmm, I knew a Pastor Sonny once, an Evangelical. But probably very unlikely it's the same man

[Fsiphskilm]

Yes we've had quite a lot of discussions on this before, all went in a sort of... meh direction. We argued over kids going hell, natives being damned because of not being reached in time. Lazy Christians who got a free pass. We discussed a LOT in the past over this issue. Everything was talked about.

But what we did found, was:

-Scripture in favor of the poor and the children
-Everyone is given a chance, somehow.
-Hell is for people who have rejected God's Gift of Salvation, if you never had a chance to accept it, you've never had a chance to reject it, Therefor you'll probly be sent into an alternate universe with similar situations and the question will poped and you shall have to choose.

Ok ok, fine. The last one I made up. But just remember. We ALL get judged in the end. Hell isn't for certain for everyone, I don't know anything, nor do any of us. If the bible stated: Kids, island natives, people who were never told of Jesus, automaticly had an excuse, then The entire World would turn chaotic, Kids would be killed so they'd be guarenteed a spot in heaven, There would be no missionaries, and no one would dare talk to the island natives who never heard of Jesus

So God did the smart & Wise thing... he simply didn't tell us about all the Exceptions, excuses, special situations. This way we won't find loop holes and try to cheat. Honestly, just trust him. He's God, he's freaken perfect.

When we die, our spirits go into a deep sleep, along with the countless others that have died before us. We have no worries, no troubles, all business is finished, all decisions are final. Our Job for that time being is simply to sleep, and wait till we are awakened one day for Judgement, where the Great Holy Spirit awaits us all.

The Judgement isn't an occurance where all the saved are asked to simply step to the right and enter heaven, while the Damned are send directly into hell, Instead EVERYONE gets judged. Saved, Unsaved, Christian, Atheist, Buddiest, Muslim, and everyone in between.

[holysoldier5000]

I would suggest reading the book of Romans. It deals heavily with this issue. It is a difficult book to understand but I have some great resources that can help you understand what the book of Romans is saying. I would post the information but I don’t want to get into trouble for starting a Theological debate. If you are interested, or anybody for that matter is interested in what I have to offer, just PM and I will see if I can’t help you out.

God Bless
HS5000

[termyt]

Hmm, this is amusing, its like a remix of this old thread]http://www.christiananime.com/showthread.php?t=14444&page=1[/url] ; my thoughts there.

I would also recommend reviewing the material in this thread. My thoughts are there as well.

All that I care to add at the moment is this:

As interesting and perplexing as this aspect of God is, it is not the most important. I spend a lot of time talking about this subject as it is a favorite topic for non-believers and I enjoy those discussions. I'm not saying that they are with out merit. However, it is easy to fall into a trap here by theorizing on how we feel God should act. We have no right or ability to dictate to God on how He should treat us. If we disagree with Him on theology, then it is we who need to change.

We ponder what might become of those who have never heard the gospel, but shame on us if a single person we meet in this life falls into that category.

[GhostontheNet]

hmm..myself..I believe this.
I call God ..Jesus..because that is the name I have been brought up with, just as say..someone who was raised in..Thailand..would call God..Buddha
1. I fully recognize God as the supreme bieng, but I also feel that God in itself is love, and wherever there is love there is God.
3. My best friend is a Buddhist, and he is one of the best people I know...I feel that if you are as is says in the movie Kingdom of Heaven " if you wake in the morning and are a good man" then it does not matter who's divine name you are under.
4. The bible was translated by Anglo Saxon White Males a very very long time ago...though I do believe in most of the Bible and its teachings..some parts sound like a " hell fire preacher from the south" wrote it..anything could have been changed with a flick of a pen.

I personally feel that a person needs a connection to the divine, in order to live a good life, but as long as you are being a light in the world, and spreading holy good..then be my guest.

I can only imagine what harsh words Paul would have to say about this, having scoured the Empire preaching that the risen Yeshua Christ is the world's true Lord and Savior in whom all the nations owe allegience, often risking his life for the message he admits is superficially foolish, only to be informed that he was wasting his time and Christ was wasting His blood and His well-deserved honor. After all, the Jews had the Law of YHWH which made them good people, and the Gentiles had Stoic and Neo-Platonic philosophy that made them good people. I mean, with so many cross-cultural efficient ways of making good people, why do we bother preaching to anyone? Why did Christ bother dying in such a horrible, agonising, shameful, and undignified manner at all? No, if there is salvation for those who never heard, it is because of the profound mercy of Christ, and that alone, not because of any level of goodness they maintained in their life.

I am also terribly encouraged to see your slander against the descendants of the Angles and Saxons, particularly their men, whom you have implied are hopeless habitual liars who can't help but play total havok on their sacred scriptures, and have hopelessly poor translation skills of Hebrew and Greek. If you knew anything about modern translations also, you would know they make heavy use of much older manuscripts than the King James Version translators had access to, nulling your complaints. It is also lovely to see that you throw out everything you don't like without consideration of whether it truly means what it sounds like to you, or whether the passage is taken in a wider context justifiable - after all, anyone could tamper with the text so that it would contain things I hate. Nor for that matter is the science of textual criticism consulted for confirmation or denial of these suspicions. On this method, I will assume that snow in a jar is in fact an Orthodox Christian, and that the moderators have developed a grude against him and covertly edited his post to expound vile heresy.

[Ashley]

What a beautiful post to end on. Well spoken, Ghostonthenet, well spoken indeed. However I do not wish to see things get ugly from here, so I will simply close the thread, and advise you guys to take up the conversation via PM.