What's so special about Macs?

[Raiden no Kishi]

I've heard a bit about Macs and how they're different and some people like them a lot, but I haven't really understood what's so good about them. Perhaps someone who owns a Mac could help me out?

Rai

[mechana2015]

First of all... the OS.
The Macintosh operating system is built on a (purportedly) more stable platform than windows (linux I think). The OS is als built to survive a program crashing without the whole sytem being involved. It also automatically defrags and its folder system is such that programs can be deleted/uninstalled simply and easily. Generally they are more stable than computers based in Windows. The OS (X specifically) is also easier to manage for most people and simpler to navigate in.

Most of the Mac fans (myself included) are graphics people, which is what the system hardware (and to some degree) software really do well. Generally the hardware is seen as being more stable as well.

One of the other reasons is that, since macs make up a small percentage of the global market and have a more secure OS than Windows, they are not targeted for computer viruses (almost) at all.

I can give more reasons but those are the basic ones.

[Locke]

[quote]2. It Doesn’t Crash
UNIX Are you just a tad too well acquainted with the notorious “blue screen of death?â€

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Macs are horrible! I used them at high school and tafe and they were very unreliable and you had to learn a whole new operating system. I prefer PCs even though they also have their fair share of problems, but I find them easier to use.

[mechana2015]

Macs are horrible! I used them at high school and tafe and they were very unreliable and you had to learn a whole new operating system.

What OS were they running?

[shooraijin]

If they were running System 7.5, I don't blame him, and even OS 9 had its dodgy moments. I find it very hard to believe he would have been using any form of OS X at that time.

Meanwhile, this Mac running 10.2.8 has had uptimes as long as 150 days, brought down only by power outages.

[Debitt]

Macs are weird...I admit they're fairly stable, but having my own nasty experiences with Macintosh's OS 9 (randomly changing resolution, inability to FIX randomly changing resolution, options getting entirely wiped from the control panel, etc.) I'm pretty much going to stick with my own buggy PC with problems that I know how to fix.

[mechana2015]

If they were running System 7.5, I don't blame him, and even OS 9 had its dodgy moments. I find it very hard to believe he would have been using any form of OS X at that time.

Meanwhile, this Mac running 10.2.8 has had uptimes as long as 150 days, brought down only by power outages.

I'm running similar Shoo, though due to it's being a laptop it seems to be incapeable of staying on that long... Wait...I'm running 10.3.7. Whatever.

As to 7.5 and 9... I agree. Both were substandard in comparison and (fortunately) becoming rarer. (Sad fact is if you run into these OSs nowadays the computers that they're typically installed on are not built to handle the modern broadband friendly internet and graphics intensive modern day programs. its like trying to run Doom 3 on a computer that originally ran Win 3.1... just not enough resources.)

Yeah... OS X rarely inspires that sort of violent reaction in people.
:gush on: and its sooo pretty! :gush off:

[shooraijin]

Kokoro, OS 9 has not been the primary OS of a new Macintosh for over three years. That's like saying you wouldn't use a PC because you had a bad experience with Windows ME (when virtually all new PCs come with XP). It's just not a valid criticism.

I do use OS 9 a lot on older Macs (and fwiw, never observed any of those problems), but that's because I've used Macs since 1987 and I'm used to the quirks of the older OS. Nevertheless, few modern Macs except for some specialty houses still run it as their main OS, and my primary desktop Mac runs X. If you went to the Apple Store and bought a new Mac, it would also be running X.

[Fsiphskilm]

Because macs ru

[shooraijin]

And then there's (lots of) people like me who have multiple old Macs which not only aren't broken, but still work and do useful work. My internal DNS server for the last three years is a Mac that's over 12 years old!

"A lot of audio/video software is expected to switch" ... well, frankly, most of the audio/video software already is on the PC and there are still lots of people who struggle through editing video on Windows. Even in the pro arena, I would estimate that the majority -- not the vast majority, but the majority -- of video systems are Windows, with Macs in second, and some on Linux. This isn't an open secret. Avid and Avid Express runs on Windows and Macs, and Premiere now only runs on Windows (because of Final Cut). Final Cut remains the only Mac-specific video editing program.

On the other hand, my folks went through three PCs doing their local access Bible study program. The first time, they used a DV500 from Pinnacle that the local PC video guru recommended to them in an off-the-shelf PC running Windows 2000 (this was about two years ago and the drivers still didn't work with XP). It routinely crashed during capture and integrated very poorly with Premiere. The second iteration used the same card, newer drivers and a later motherboard, but then they outgrew the hard disk, Windows had a cruft infestation and required a complete rebuild, Dad decided to upgrade and in doing so overloaded the motherboard's capabilities and so they went to a third unit, dropped the DV500, went all FireWire, went SATA RAID (which I had to fix and configure for them), went through two video cards (the first one, a GeForce 4 of some kind, lost the magic smoke and the second one, a Radeon, had driver issues), and when their cable broadcaster asked them for DVD media instead of DV tapes, ended up cursing the poor integration between Premiere, the MPEG-2 encoder (which is also Adobe) and the DVD burner software, which adds several days of render and burn time trying to optimize compression ratios before sending it to the studio. By the way, the video card still doesn't work. I had to turn down the optimization settings or they get multiple artifacts.

They went out and bought a dual G5 instead. They're using Final Cut Pro HD, but iDVD seems to be meeting their needs and with a faster render->burn cycle.

[ShiroiHikari]

how come Macs get no love? they are so much more stable than PCs... seriously, I had to use them in graphics class, and for like, the first three days I hated it...til I got used to it. I've wanted to own one ever since. I just don't have the money. ^_^;

I've only had a Mac crash on me once. ONCE. in TWO YEARS of using one just about every day. whereas my Win98 PC crashes at least once a day, often multiple times in a row. >_<

[Kenshin17]

Mac's are so cool. If mac made a tablet I'd so get it. They should make a tablet. It would be the most powerful one on the market.

My church has a G4 dual prossecor desktop. It is quit possible the best computer I have ever used. They have tons of junk on it and despite all that I have had to totally restart it once in like two years! The only programs that lock up are Microsoft ones and even then OS X just boots them out and keeps going.

[indyrocker]

Come on people Linix its free and open sorced! tho not many games will work with this os.

[mechana2015]

Ignoring OT post...

The only programs that lock up are Microsoft ones and even then OS X just boots them out and keeps going.

This is one of the features of the Mac OS (OS X AKA 10.3.7) that I like the most. The systems capeability to have an error in A program, and yet still be able to run the rest of the system despite that error manifesting and crashing the program, rather than my typical windows XP Ctl+Alt+Del+Yellatit+reboot+turn off comp using power button(resulting in virus scan at boot and 10 minute boot up) sequence

[Debitt]

Kokoro, OS 9 has not been the primary OS of a new Macintosh for over three years. That's like saying you wouldn't use a PC because you had a bad experience with Windows ME (when virtually all new PCs come with XP). It's just not a valid criticism.

I'm not necessarily criticizing Mac, just relating the problems I've had with it in the past. (98% of my school's computers either run windows 98 or OS 9, so I deal with outdated technology on a daily basis) To be 100% honest, I'm just sticking with a PC because I'm more accustomed to one, and I'd sooner put up with Windows then try to learn a completely new OS - and that's not limited to a Macintosh. (I've tried Linux a couple times, too) I KNOW Macs are more stable, and I know they're the primary computer for audio/visual/graphic work, I'm just a lazy good for nothing lump who doesn't have the time to get acquainted or the money to get a Mac.

[Debitt]

Kokoro, OS 9 has not been the primary OS of a new Macintosh for over three years. That's like saying you wouldn't use a PC because you had a bad experience with Windows ME (when virtually all new PCs come with XP). It's just not a valid criticism.

I'm not necessarily criticizing Mac, just relating the problems I've had with it in the past. (98% of my school's computers either run windows 98 or OS 9, so I deal with outdated technology on a daily basis) To be 100% honest, I'm just sticking with a PC because I'm more accustomed to one, and I'd sooner put up with Windows then try to learn a completely new OS - and that's not limited to a Macintosh. (I've tried Linux a couple times, too) I KNOW Macs are more stable, and I know they're the primary computer for audio/visual/graphic work, I'm just a lazy good for nothing lump of a bum.

[shooraijin]

Well, that's fair. It's more of a general complaint of mine that I see criticism levelled at the old Mac way of doing things, when any new Mac (and the majority of old Macs still in use) doesn't do it that way anymore. However, I'm well-aware of the learning curve going from one to the other; it's what prevented my folks from switching to Mac earlier than they did.

Macs do cost some coin, but what Macs lack in cost advantage (which is now controversial after the introduction of the mini), they make up for in longevity. My Mac Plus is vintage 1988 and older than some of the members here. My primary servers are anywhere between 3 and 12 years old. And there's nothing magical about troubleshooting or fixing them in the rare case where they do go belly up; you just have to learn a different set of symptoms and fixes. When my IIci suddenly froze in NetBSD and refused to restart, I immediately homed in on the cache card as the problem (knowing that the SRAM in those cards is delicate), pulled it and replaced with an NOS 32K L1 cacheboard that I had acquired at a swap meet, and it came back to life. That same unit early in its life had earlier intermittent freezes which puzzled me for a few weeks until I got a Snooper NuBus board and installed it -- and found whenever the hard disk was under heavy load, the 12V line was plummeting and causing power drain. I replaced the power supply, and got it back and stable (and its uptime has been in excess of 200 days, again, interrupted only by power failure). When my 7300 was throwing intermittent hard disk errors, after some trial and error it turned out to be a loose connection to the power supply. It's not rocket science; it's just somewhat different than the typical symptoms and fixes on PCs. Nowadays, as Macs use more and more common components, servicing them is quite a bit simpler, but it was never unbelieveably obscure.

I have to use a PC on a daily basis as a matter of course, and I don't hate it. I just don't like it very much because of what I perceive as subjective inelegance (contradictory UI between applications, poor attention to user level and logical menu presentation), security issues (malware and spyware being large part of this, which (for whatever reason you like) just doesn't exist on modern Macs), and poor quality control. Any freak can jam a motherboard and a Pentium knockoff and some 3rd rate import video card in a case and call it a PC, ignoring the fact the drivers are buggy and corners were cut on the choice of hardware and so on. I buy a Mac knowing what's coming in the box, knowing that it's been tested in this configuration, and knowing it will all work together in a common, well-documented manner of accomplishing tasks. I don't get that kind of assurance in the PC world, so I'm firmly a Mac bigot.

[Kenshin17]

This is one of the features of the Mac OS (OS X AKA 10.3.7) that I like the most. The systems capeability to have an error in A program, and yet still be able to run the rest of the system despite that error manifesting and crashing the program, rather than my typical windows XP Ctl+Alt+Del+Yellatit+reboot+turn off comp using power button(resulting in virus scan at boot and 10 minute boot up) sequence

Widows XP is supposed to have that feature too...It doesn't. A program freeze = Windows freeze 95% of the time.


I wouldn't know how easy it is to trouble shoot a Mac...I've never had to
I do know however that PC's are a complete pain in the neck.

[Debitt]

Kokoro, OS 9 has not been the primary OS of a new Macintosh for over three years. That's like saying you wouldn't use a PC because you had a bad experience with Windows ME (when virtually all new PCs come with XP). It's just not a valid criticism.

I wasn't criticizing a Mac, nor giving a reason/excuse for why I don't use one, I was just relating some of the misadventures I've had with the OS 9. (I work in the computer lab at school 4th and 5th period, and ALL of the computers there use OS 9 or Windows 98, so I deal with outdated technology daily) The honest to goodness truth is that I don't have much of a preference, Mac or PC, but I stick with PCs because I'm a lazy bum and I don't want to learn a new OS. Maybe one day I'll pick the Mac up, and I'm sure I'll like it because I do a fair amount of graphic work, but at this point it just isn't practical for me.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

mechana, the OS I had at tafe was OS9 and highschool some previous version before that.

[Hitokiri]

I'm using one at school and they'e all right. I'm just to used to Windows.

[Arnobius]

Because macs run good with Audio and Video. But in the next few years the same PCI architecture is coming to PCs (greatest PC advancment in 12 years), so PCs will be able to run as smoothly as macs do. A lot of audio/video software is expected to switch to PC, seeing how the majority of people are PC people.

Is this the PCI Express everyone is talking about, or am I confusing this for something else?

One of the odder things I've heard from Mac users is the claim that they're safe from viruses, but when I question them, they say it's because nobody targets Macs. Presuming they're accurately representing the situation, it seems like a kind of "head in the sand" approach, since if someone did target the Mac, it could be a disaster waiting to happen.

I mean, just the other day, they announced that they found a security flaw in Mozilla, so nobody should be complacent.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Come on people Linix its free and open sorced! tho not many games will work with this os.

i just downloaded suse live

yes, macs. Stable. Nice and cute, not full of weird colors. And JELLY BUTTONS!!!!!

[Arnobius]

Whenever I hear people hype Linux, I'm always reminded of the story arc PvP did a few years ago making fun of User Friendly, where a Mac user asks a Linux user what all the fuss is over some (expletive ommitted) garbage you can get over the internet for free. The linux user asks if he meant user friendly or Linux. The Mac user responds with "Yes."

(I won't actually link, since the comic has several profanities)

[mechana2015]

One of the odder things I've heard from Mac users is the claim that they're safe from viruses, but when I question them, they say it's because nobody targets Macs. Presuming they're accurately representing the situation, it seems like a kind of "head in the sand" approach, since if someone did target the Mac, it could be a disaster waiting to happen.

It's also due to a more secure OS too... fewer holes if I remember correctly.
Disaster waiting to happen... not really. Macs are only 2% of the world computer population or somthing like that... and not in many critical areas even. Reguardless, if a person were to place a Mac in an important position I would hope that they would be bright enough to firewall themselves somehow and scan/update their system. Unlike MS, Mac tends to send out updates ever week or two, rather than once a year. (SP2 was unscheduled for release if I remember correctly) It's just that one doesn't have to secure the computer like a CIA server to keep it running.

[shooraijin]

Or, at least an OS whose core is open source (Darwin is released under an OSS license) and therefore there are many more eyes looking at its underpinnings. Most of the major kernel-level bugs, therefore, were found and corrected early on in its development cycle.

John Gruber, in a Daring Fireball blog, made a few interesting points on the Macs & spyware debate.

1. It's impossible to -disprove- that the Mac's market share is the primary reason why there aren't OS X viruses, because the Mac will never attain market share parity with Windows. (In fact, I suspect a lot of Mac owners indeed hope such an occurrence is impossible, or Apple would become as complacent as Microsoft.)

2. The number of viruses for OS X isn't some proportion of Windows viruses, multiplied by OS X' fractional market share -- it's zero. Some other reason must be contributing.

3. Macs command tremendous mindshare. A small percentage of people use them and yet just about everyone has an opinion on them (look at this thread). Their record on viruses is hotly controversial and frequently cited. An OS X virus would win instant notoriety and to any 1337 h4xx0r looking for a big score would have the benefit of being reported endlessly in the tech journals and industry rags, and bringing down a cornerstone of Apple's brag marketing.

4. The Macintosh world prides itself on a clean environment, and is substantially different culturally than the PC world. Gruber likens the situation to a smaller but nicer building with all of its windows intact -- one window sticks out like a sore thumb, and is rapidly repaired, while the PC world has a large number of windows, most of them shattered and few of them fixed. As the normal state of those windows is to be broken, no one notices if more are shattered on the way, while in the Mac building, despite it being smaller, fixes and patches circulate for the few windows that do break, and people make an effort to ensure things are tidy. If an adware maker started spewing stuff on the Mac, that software company would be excoriated on Mac boards, ripped to shreds in Mac magazines, and ostracized at the sales counter.

There were a few other things, but those were the main points.

[Raiden no Kishi]

The reason I'm asking about Macs is that I may be replacing my Compaq in the recent future (I'll probably get a new laptop in college if I keep this one for now) and I want to know if a Mac would be the way to go. I'm planning on pursuing drawing as a hobby, and I'll be monkeying around with Photoshop. I hear a lot of artists use Macs, so that's what I was wondering (not that I have the audacity to call myself an artist and defile the term, but I'd like to be someday)

Rai

[Mr. SmartyPants]

just make sure you get a 2 button usb mouse if youre gonna do that ^^, thats the only downside. 1 mouse button. Right clicking is equivelant to ctrl+click

[Arnobius]

2. The number of viruses for OS X isn't some proportion of Windows viruses, multiplied by OS X' fractional market share -- it's zero. Some other reason must be contributing.

Still, the Mac users I knew really seemed to have a "head in the sand mentality." They didn't know why it was safe, but were presuming that because it hadn't happened yet, it couldn't happen at all. Like I pointed out elsewhere, there were a lot of people who were dogmatically claiming that Mozilla was better than IE and safer. But they found a security flaw (that mostly affects people from other countries with different language fonts, so it didn't get much coverage here) that isn't present in IE.

ANyway, to rephrase the pont that people originally missed:
Just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it can't happen.