Animals and souls

[Heart of Sword]

I was researching it and came upon these verses in Ecclesiastes...

It's Ecclestiases 3.

17 I thought in my heart,

"God will bring to judgment
both the righteous and the wicked,
for there will be a time for every activity,
a time for every deed."

18 I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath [b] ; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal [c] goes down into the earth?"

(footnote b: or spirit)


Hmmm... ^_^ ???

[YMHiK]

Ouch! That is a tough one

All I can say is that I do not remember any prejudice in Bible associated with killing animals (except for fun of course) as with killing human being (Moses Code for example).

Moreover, it seems to me that this all is about person's fate, that is to say no one has right to live more than the other one (or cannot justify their right to kill each other).

Hm, interesting concept... animals and souls?

[Gypsy]

Ecclesiastes, like the Psalms, has to be read in context. The writer (many believe to be Solomon) is using literary expressions to convey that life is but a vapor - human, remember who you are in the big scheme of things and realize that you will someday return to the dust you were created from. I don't believe that this scripture is saying that animals have souls, I believe that it's pointing out that all things living will someday die and that things that are so important to our flesh are, in fact, meaningless when it comes to eternal life.

[SManBeyond]

Gypsy's hit the nail on the head. As far as I can recall, there is no specific place or implication that makes sense in context anywhere in the Bible that says that animals have souls.

Having said that, I personally hope that animals and pets go to heaven. I've grown up with pets since I was six, and because of the joy and love they've given me (as well as how close I grew to them) I really hope I get to see them again. However, I place that question of mine in the hands of Le Bon Dieu, as He alone is wise and ultimately knows best. If they aren't there, then it's because there's a reason. Besides, seeing Him in heaven will be the greatest and most fulfilling joy and happiness.

[Heart of Sword]

(This isn't really about if animals go to heaven...I don't know if they do or not. This is about animals having souls.)

There is also some more:

Job 12:7-10, which says, "But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee: Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee. Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this? In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind."


The Angel and Balaam

22But God was angry because he was going, (Q)and the angel of the LORD took his stand in the way as an adversary against him. Now he was riding on his donkey and his two servants were with him.

23When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way with his drawn sword in his hand, the donkey turned off from the way and went into the field; but Balaam struck the donkey to turn her back into the way.

24Then the angel of the LORD stood in a narrow path of the vineyards, with a wall on this side and a wall on that side.

25When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she pressed herself to the wall and pressed Balaam's foot against the wall, so he struck her again.

26The angel of the LORD went further, and stood in a narrow place where there was no way to turn to the right hand or the left.

27When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she lay down under Balaam; so (R)Balaam was angry and struck the donkey with his stick.

28And (S)the LORD opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to Balaam, "What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?"

29Then Balaam said to the donkey, "Because you have made a mockery of me! If there had been a sword in my hand, (T)I would have killed you by now."

30The donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey on which you have ridden all your life to this day? Have I ever been accustomed to do so to you?" And he said, "No."

31Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw (U)the angel of the LORD standing in the way with his drawn sword in his hand; and he bowed all the way to the ground.

32The angel of the LORD said to him, "Why have you struck your donkey these three times? Behold, I have come out as an adversary, because your way was (V)contrary to me.

33"But the donkey saw me and turned aside from me these three times. If she had not turned aside from me, I would surely have killed you just now, and let her live."

34Balaam said to the angel of the LORD, "(W)I have sinned, for I did not know that you were standing in the way against me. Now then, if it is displeasing to you, I will turn back."



Proverbs 12:10
10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.



I like the story of Balaam's Donkey.

[termyt]

Animals and humans do share some common ground. We both live similar lives and we are both creations of the same God. We both need to eat and sleep and breath, but man alone was made in God's image.

I do not believe tha the passage in Job is recommending that you actually strike up a conversation with an animal, and even if it was, speach is an ability of our bodies, not a gift of our souls. Apes can learn sign language and dolphins also have a very complex for of speach, but I don't think that's evidence of a soul.

[agasfas]

I don't believe that this scripture is saying that animals have souls, I believe that it's pointing out that all things living will someday die and that things that are so important to our flesh are, in fact, meaningless when it comes to eternal life.

Like others have said, Gypsy had basically "hit the nail on the head."
Also, like many others have already stated, no where in the bible does it say animals have souls. The bible tells us that humans have three parts: physical body, spirit and soul]nor your animals[/b]...

God cares for every living thing: humans, birds, horses etc... But take into consideration Humans are made in the image of God, animals are not. I'm not debating any side but rather saying God cares for all of his creation.

[EireWolf]

I would not make theological assumptions based on Ecclesiastes. It's a rather obscure book. As others have noted, the Bible is not clear on the eternal fate of animals. However, it does imply that all creation will be redeemed.

For further research on the subject of animals and souls, I would refer you to C.S. Lewis. He has written on the subject, and I wrote a paper about his "animal theology" a long time ago (too long ago to remember what it said). I can send it to you if you like (it's a Word document -- PM me if you want me to email it to you). One of my sources was God in the Dock. Lewis wrote essays entitled "Vivisection" and "The Pains of Animals." You might not like everything he has to say, and you might like some things. In any case, he does have logical arguments regarding animals and souls.

[Stephen]

Wow I was going to post a lengthy post on this...but Gypsy has indeed said most of what I would say. However, allow me to point out one event that happend many times in the Bible. Animal sacrifices. In the OT many times it would say God was pleased by these....now would God enjoy the slaughter of somthing with a soul? I don't think so. The book of Ecclestiases is also, at least I have always felt, a clear picture of what happens when someone slides from the wisdom of the Lord...to worldly man wisdom. Solomon says quite a few..odd things in his works.

Edit:whoops...posted at the same time. ^^;;

[Ashley]

I'm not really clear on why this thread was allowed to continue, but this very clearly crosses into the realm of "theological debate" for me. References have been made, and if you wish to continue this conversation please do so either over PM or take it to a different site (Theology Web, for example, or Shezerade's theology forum)