Perhaps you can answer something for me...

[kaji]

Hey Lanrete,

I’m glad that you have taken the time to ask questions about those areas that are troubling you. Many people would have just become angry and never even attempted to understand.
I only hope that I am some what able to help in your search for the truth about God.

*rolles up sleaves*

Here we go! ^_^

The bible was written by man, and we know that man, by nature, is prone to his own folly.

So what's to say that in those hundreds of years the bible was been passed on, its message has not been skewed by man to suit his own purposes?

It's quite plausible no?

Yes, it is possible, and it has happened. The Book of Mormons, for example, consists of many misuses of scripture and additions by man.
I would like to point out, however, that while normal books are written by man, the Bible is written by God (through his truly faithful people). Satan has made many a forgery, but since we humans are not here alone, God has preserved his text in it’s original form. Some thing we probably would have messed up on our own.
Note: Not just anyone contributed to the writings of the Bible, and history was not merely in the minds of its inhabitants. Even in ancient times there were scholars and scribes who’s life was to record/ preserve history (much like today).

Perhaps an amount of faith is also necessary. ^_^

God said you should love your neighbor, as you would yourself. Love your enemy as you would love your friend; love and accept unconditionally. He is the judge, not you.

Yet, something as silly as…homosexuality, is enough to be exiled. I have seen families, friends, and churches all turn their backs on someone of their own faith just because they were gay. Even if they hated it, and wanted to rid themselves of it, they would still be ostracized. I’ve seen it in my travels across the US, I’ve even seen it here on these boards.

Why is that?

Good question.
First up, homosexuality is not some thing that is silly. Just like all sin, it is very serious. Our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and to defile it in an unnatural practice such as homosexuality is pretty serious.
However, that does not, in any way, mean we, as Christians, have the right to shun such a person. But there is a difference that needs to be noted with homosexuality (as well as all other sin). If the person is complacently living in sin, with no intention of repenting then they cannot really be saved, and they do not really believe the Bible. You cant just take the parts of the Bibles you like, you have to take it all.

Now if someone is struggling with sin and honestly wants to put it out of their life, then the church (Gods people) should take them in and minister to them. Help them over come this sin, just like any other sin. In Gods eyes, all sin is the same, and it should be in ours as well.

Note: The Bible does not tell us (as Christians) to ostracize any one.

I’ve seen a woman denied baptism because she refused to conform to a certain dress code. (She wasn’t anything outrageous; neat jeans and a t-shirt) She threw herself at the feet of the head of the church, begging for forgiveness through her tears, saying every priestly body she had seen coldly refused her, along with the rest of the accompanying congregation. This time was no different.

She killed herself a few days later. Her note said she did it because God and his children couldn’t accept her for who she was.

That same week, the church proclaimed her an evil worshipper of Satan who was to burn in hell for her unforgivable crimes against humanity.

This sounds like another example of a Church that really doesn’t have their priorities quite right. We know that Jesus spent most of his time ministering to people who would hardly be considered to ‘dress appropriately.’

[quote]Why is it that many of the “faithfulâ€

[kaji]

*continued from previous post*

Why do people turn to prayer so often instead of themselves? God gave you the power to change the things around you, and yet it’s squandered by constantly praying to him to do everything for you. Why not find that strength in yourself, by yourself? If you can use that power to help those around you, why pray to God to give you strength, when you, as his child can do so alone?

Another good questions.
Yes and no. Yes, God has given us the ability to do lots of things. We should always be learning and in so becoming more capable servants of Jesus Christ. I do agree with you that many people pray for help when God has already given them the ability to accomplish the task. However, there are many things that are beyond our control. Those things that God has not given us the ability to accomplish need to be brought to the Lord through prayer.

I am in no way trying to undermine the need for prayer. We should still pray to God (its like a free phone service) in every thing we do. Talk to him like you would any other friend, but you don’t have to ask him to do things for you.
Health, safety, and things you cannot directly control are best brought to God in Prayer.
Note: This is not, by any means, a complete list of what you can/ should pray to God about.

Every father’s goal is to one day, stop being a father. To see his children act, and think on their own, without his constant influence. To be able to live, in essence, without him. (And yet, he’ll always be there regardless…best of both worlds no?)

Would he not be proud of his children for doing so?

Careful, this is a confusion between a biological father and a spiritual father. While we are raised by our parents to one day make it on our own and then do the same for our children; is probably an accurate statement in the sense of an earthly father. But God never wants you to go it alone. In fact there are many things in life that we cannot do alone. Your relationship with your Heavenly Father should not be one solely of need. (only when you need help)

Tell me something…was your faith something you discovered on your own, derived from your own conclusions and experiences, or something you were taught to believe/accept as the absolute truth by those close to you?

Think hard about that one; it can be hard to discern.

So why not question something like that? Wouldn’t it occur to people that exiling someone was wrong? Would that not be breaking a law God set out for you?

Is it fear? Is the fear of angering God, burning in hell, or ceasing to exist after life something that drives this kind of behavior? Is that what makes most people blindly keep their faith, refusing to change in even the slightest?

You know, even though I went to church some as a child. I never really understood any of it until I got older and actually experienced it. There isn’t really a wrong answer to finding your faith, but wouldn’t you rather have an experience soldier next to you in battle then just some rookie who keeps on guessing what to do next?

I would like to point out, however, that some one who says they are a Christian but does not act it (refusing to change in even the slightest) is not really a Christian. Make sense?

Sorry I didn’t quote the rest of this section, it’s a pretty redundant question. “Would you do this or that, if nothing was the way it is?â€

[Nate]

Why can I not stay away from this thread? *Shrugs* I suppose it is because I have much to say.

As far as the woman who got kicked out for what she wore, that church was WAY out of line. What would they have done with Jesus? They sound like the Pharisees to me. Here is an example:

10 While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and `sinners'?"

12 On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: `I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
- Matthew 9:10-13

About the prayer thing, I looked further and Jesus commands us to pray. It also teaches a lesson about those who believe themselves to be more holy than others, such as that church that rejected that woman. This is a fairly long passage, so bear with me:

Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. 2 He said: "In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared about men. 3 And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, `Grant me justice against my adversary.'

4 "For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, `Even though I don't fear God or care about men, 5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won't eventually wear me out with her coming!' "

6 And the Lord said, "Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"

9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: `God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

13 "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, `God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

14 "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." - Luke 18:1-14

You state humans are strong, but we are not.

17 You may say to yourself, "My power and the strength of my hands have produced this wealth for me." 18 But remember the LORD your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth... - Deuteronomy 8:17-18

For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. - 1 Corinthians 1:25

24 A man can do nothing better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in his work. This too, I see, is from the hand of God, 25 for without him, who can eat or find enjoyment? - Ecclesiastes 2:24-25

And, that's all I can think of (for now...)

[Lanrete]

"perhapes you can answer something for me..." well we did, we've pretty much answered everything, only to have you give excuses and explinations.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, we did our part, from here on it's pretty pointless for me to talk with you.

Forgive my question, but then why are you still addressing me?

I came here to have a discussion]This ain't no Yin Yang man. Satan is not part of God, Satan is the absense of God, as Darkness is the absense of Light, and Evil is the absense of Good.

Good DID exhist without Evil, and the two in no way "need" each other. Book of Revelation mensiones after the end there shall be a new isreal, a new earth, and Jesus will take his throne as lord. Where evil ill be demolished and exiled.[/quote]

Lucifer was cast down from Heaven and became the entity we know as Satan, correct? All things came from God, including Lucifer, now Satan. Satan came from God.

If God wanted us to perceive good, he must introduce evil. If you never know the meaning of sadness, how can you experience happiness? How can you perceive one without the other? How can you accept good and turn away evil if you do not know what evil is? How can you learn from mistakes if you never make them? How can you become stronger without hardship? You need the comparison for either to have effect. So yes, one needs the other to work.

Even if God makes a new earth, evil will still exist in some place, at some time, hence the balance is preserved.

so you expect God to just pop outa the sky and show you the meaning of life and answer all your questions... heck, you're going to have to work for your knowledge, I know i have. God doesn't have a welfare system, everyone works the same for their gifts.

I do not expect anything from him actually. Any interference on his part would deprive humanity of free will.

there are so many miracles that he's done for you, and you disregard him and take him for granted. there are things he does to help you on your journey that you aren't even aware of. And your lack of thanks is what's going to get you "screwed", it's all fun, games, self pride, until you go crawling back to him. The best miracles are the ones that are invisible to us

Why should I give him all the credit? I never asked for his help. I'd like to prove to my God that I will do everything in my power, exhaust EVERY resource before I turn to him for help. I will not use him as a crutch if I can avoid it. I am grateful for my existance, and my eventual fate after death. Be it rebirth, heaven, becoming a part of everything or even non existance. That is my fate, and I have accepted it. I shall stand before my God as I truly am, not something I feel I was forced to be.

Poeple who ask questions, and ignore the answers, and give excuse over and over to the people who provide the answers... that is.

Arguing them is not the same as giving excuses. If I were to follow your logic, you are giving me excuses too.

Logic over scripture? "The lord is the same in the past, the present and the future" his laws do not change to accomidate the Child-like behavoir and idiocy of the common sinner.

Just one scripture. As varied as humanity is, it would be wise of God to give a different representation of himself to a variety of people. It is obvious that humanity cannot all agree on thing, so he gave them a choice. It would ensure that all the more of people would be saved no?

Or perhaps humanity was the one who chose to give God a face in the first place.

It's obvous this thread's going to get locked... it's practicly going no-where. And the members who are waisting their time and peace of mind...it's sad.

It is? As far as I can see, everyone who has replied]

[Lanrete]

[quote="termyt"]We are all slaves to the people/things we love most. We devote our time and our money to promote them and make sure that they are taken care of. Liberty is an illusion. We have political liberty in this country in that we can choose those who rule over us, but it is a limited liberty. There are many things we are not free to do (and, in many cases, rightfully so). I am not particularly interested in the “warm attachmentâ€

[Lanrete]

I don’t think that we should be cruel to those who do not agree with us, but as Christians, it is our responsibility to spread Gods word. If you knew the truth (about anything) and every one else was going the wrong way, wouldn’t you want to tell them? If some one tried to take that truth and twist it around to accommodate them selves, wouldn’t you want to correct them?
Christianity is not flexible. It does not have to be presented with anger or coarsely, but it cannot bend to tolerate exceptions. That would destroy everything. Making sense?

However, there is a difference between spreading, and forcing. I do not force my truths on people. I merely present them. I can understand Christianity is not flexible, but I cannot agree to it.

I would suggest that you not take a video game (or other form of entertainment) as a foundation for what you believe…

A book can be seen as a form of entertainment as well. Bear that in mind. ^_^

I would not call it a foundation]About the prayer thing, I looked further and Jesus commands us to pray. It also teaches a lesson about those who believe themselves to be more holy than others, such as that church that rejected that woman.[/quote]

I do not believe myself to be holier than anyone, I am equal with my fellow man, but Christians, in my opinion, put too much faith in their prayer, like a crutch, and not enough in their God-granted abilities.

You state humans are strong, but we are not.

17 You may say to yourself, "My power and the strength of my hands have produced this wealth for me." 18 But remember the LORD your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth... - Deuteronomy 8:17-18

Note the bold.

He never said to neglect that power. He merely said to keep in mind who granted that power to you.

You are not weak.

Very nice work, good points all around.

It's been fun as always.

[Nate]

A common misconception. The female mantis only eats her mate in captivity. Scientists do not know why yet. Mantises observed in the wild do not do this.

D'OH!



I'll chalk that up as a point to you, but please bear this in mind: after reading that, I went and did some research on the web, and you are only half-correct. Mantises in captivity do this almost all the time it seems, but it DOES occur in the wild, albeit VERY rarely. I apologize for taking something that was not entirely true and putting it out there as if it were.

Second, pedophilia is not ALWAYS forcing your will on another. The law states that a person under 18 cannot LEGALLY give consent, but most are fully able to consciously make a choice about it. For example, a fifteen year old who knows what sex is can make a decision to have sex with someone 19 years old. Is she consenting? Yes, she is. She is not legally an adult, but she can still DO it. Therefore, not all pedophilia is forcing your will upon another, though most of it is.

Third, it may be natural, but that does not mean you can't fight it. We humans have a natural instinct to want to kill, to want to have sex, and so on, but we can fight these urges, can't we? We're not all (physically) murderers and adulterers, are we? I said "physically" because of what Jesus states in the New Testament, which I can reference for you if you want me to. So it is with homosexuality. Even if it weren't a choice (I believe it is, but that is not the topic of this thread), it is still an instinct you can fight against, just as with any other instinct.

He never said to neglect that power. He merely said to keep in mind who granted that power to you.

Okay, I'll agree with that. However, we cannot rely totally on our own strength. It all depends on God.

Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it? - Lamentations 3:37

Unless God wants it to happen, it doesn't matter how hard you try, how strong you are, it ain't gonna happen (a pain I know all too well at the moment).

We may be strong, but we can do NOTHING unless God wills it.

13 Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." 14 Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. 15 Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that."
- James 4:13-15

And yes, I agree with you, it has been fun.

EDIT: I always see something else after I've posted...

A book can be seen as a form of entertainment as well. Bear that in mind. ^_^

I would not call it a foundation]
I would say the difference is FFX does not present itself to be the truth; the Bible does, however. It may prove a point you wish to make, but that was not how the makers intended it to be taken. Same as with LOTR. It has many Christian influences, but Tolkien never meant for it to be anything more than a fantasy story. In fact, he got angry when people tried to make it something more.

Christians, in my opinion, put too much faith in their prayer, like a crutch, and not enough in their God-granted abilities.

I agree with you on this, oddly.

Christ was sent to save us from our sins...not everything else. We had a sermon on this in church yesterday. God isn't a genie that grants us our every wish when we pray. To pray about small stuff...well, it seems trivial to me. We should pray that we will be kept from sin, and to pray that others be kept from sin as well, and forgiveness for ourselves and our enemies. Look at the Lord's prayer. It simply says that (forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who tresspass against us, lead us not into temptation), as well as "give us our daily bread" (i.e. what we NEED, not want). Jesus said that is how we should pray...in my opinion, that is all we probably should pray for.

Just my opinion.

[bakura_fan]

Well...I guess I will join in this discussion....After reading through some of you're replys...I have a few comments I'd like to make.

If God wanted us to perceive good, he must introduce evil. If you never know the meaning of sadness, how can you experience happiness? How can you perceive one without the other? How can you accept good and turn away evil if you do not know what evil is? How can you learn from mistakes if you never make them? How can you become stronger without hardship? You need the comparison for either to have effect. So yes, one needs the other to work.

Even if God makes a new earth, evil will still exist in some place, at some time, hence the balance is preserved.

we can't, because we are imperfect beings...it is hard for us to comprehend what a place without sadness...tears...pain....evil...will be like. That is where faith comes in. I still question how it's possible...but I trust God in my fate.

Why should I give him all the credit? I never asked for his help. I'd like to prove to my God that I will do everything in my power, exhaust EVERY resource before I turn to him for help. I will not use him as a crutch if I can avoid it. I am grateful for my existance, and my eventual fate after death. Be it rebirth, heaven, becoming a part of everything or even non existance. That is my fate, and I have accepted it. I shall stand before my God as I truly am, not something I feel I was forced to be.

You know...reading that...reminded me of how I used to be....That path...I now know...was lonely...anfd exausting. It was very hard. I wanted to prove myself....I kept saying "i'll make it to that goal..by myself! I can do it without Him!" Sure...I made it to a few goals...but...when I finally allowed Him to help...my road was easier...note that I didn't say "perfect and carefree" but it was easier. What God wants is for you to awcknowledge Him. Yes..He gave us gifts to help us....but He also wants to be there with us. He loves everyone so much.

Usually when I bring this up, people ask me how could a loving God send people to hell. Well, I thought of this analogy....Think of a judge in the law system...and he has a son....He knows that his son wants to commit a crime...and he tells his son that the punishment for his crime will result in death if he does it. The son disobeys and is caught after committing the crime. The father dearly loves his son...but he must give him the proper judgement. If we weren't given punishment, we would never learn. god gives us chances all through our life to come to Him and acknowledge and accept Him.

However, it does prove that homosexuality is not a choice, it is something inherited by nature.

If God stated that homosexuality was evil...why would He allow it to be something that people couldn't control? Why would He allow them to be unfixable?

God is wonderful. He is there with us even when we don't acknowledge Him. It may feel that the hardships that come through, that we stood it alone...what we don't realize is that he carried us through the storm. He created man because He wanted a relationship with His creation...He didn't want robots who obeyed His every whim. He gave us free choice so it would make the relationship even better.

If you wanted to be freinds with someone....and you gave em all the things they wanted....how special would that relationship be? If they only stayed with you because of what they got....it wouldn't mean much..but if they came to yu and truly wanted to be your friend...it would mean so much more.

Please forgive me if these points were brought up allready.....I havn't had time to read everything....

[Swordguy]

God said you should love your neighbor, as you would yourself. Love your enemy as you would love your friend; love and accept unconditionally. He is the judge, not you.

Yet, something as silly as…homosexuality, is enough to be exiled. I have seen families, friends, and churches all turn their backs on someone of their own faith just because they were gay. Even if they hated it, and wanted to rid themselves of it, they would still be ostracized. I’ve seen it in my travels across the US, I’ve even seen it here on these boards.

Why is that?

Jesus Himself said that as well.

Mark 7

7They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.' 8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."
9And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions

There are many out there who claim to be Christians but all they do is follow the traditions of men (I myself used to be one) they don't truly know His love nor do they truly have a realationship with Him. They want to have a realationship with God..with out Him. they want to follow Him...yet do it with their own power they try an earn their salvation. yet man can not for we diserve punishment for what we have done...sin is sin

James 2
8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

you are a lawbreaker, i am a lawbreaker. we have broken it so there must be retrobution. you can chose to stand before God standing on your and exsplane it to Him. Or you can stand before Him and admitt you are guitly and accept the gift Jesus gave. For He has not come to bind us but to set us free and give us life and life more abondantly.

[kaji]

Hey Lanrete,

How have you been? I’m quite impressed you continue to inquire. Though I am beginning to wonder if your questions are posed only that you may boast your theories and not because you honestly desire to know the truth.
Anyway.

Having been created in his own image, would not all men strive to treat their children as God treats his?

Perhaps God doesn't want us to go at it alone, but I would think he'd want us to possess the ability.

I understand what you are trying to say, but again this is a misunderstanding of the word ‘father.’ Perhaps using the word ‘Creator’ would help level your view. Our biological fathers die and pass on, however God will remain forever. There is no need (or ability present) to go it on our own. Yes, we may be able to survive on earth without salvation, but this is really about our spirits once our bodies die.

You may also want to try and put God back into perspective. We may be made in his image, but we are not on his level. Consider your self an ant. You can do much, but there is so much more you cannot even conceive (let alone do on your own) though it is still part of your world.

As I (and you have) mentioned in the prayer section, God has given us many abilities (gifts) and expects us to use them. However, we cannot fully utilize these gifts with out the Holy Sprit, which you cannot have with out being Saved, which you cannot be if apart from God.
Sure you can do nice things for people, but without God it is all like garbage.
Isaiah 64
6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags] However, there is a difference between spreading, and forcing. I do not force my truths on people. I merely present them. I can understand Christianity is not flexible, but I cannot agree to it. [/quote] Totally agree with you on the forcing thing. Salvation is not something that can be forced on any one. Each person has to decide that for them selves. Besides, people are much more receptive when you are not trying to cram things down their throat.

[quote="Lanrete"] A book can be seen as a form of entertainment as well. Bear that in mind. ^_^

I would not call it a foundation]
Sure sure, and so can a nuclear weapon to some (be seen as a form of entertainment). Perception may play a roll now, but I think the point was more along the lines why it was created, not how it can be viewed.
A video game would most likely be made for entertainment, while the Bible was written to inform, guide and direct. If you have ever read the first chapter of Numbers, I’m sure you would agree it was not written for entertainment.

It’s rather nonsensical to draw life conclusions from a video-game (form of entertainment), especially when the world that it takes place in is a fictional one.

The book, on the other hand probably would be a more logical place to start. However, it may be just as entertaining as any videogame in the end.

Later,

-kaji

[ice122985]

Lancreate,

first off, sorry if i misspelled your name.

Now to what i am going to say. I am not going to address your reasons for why you believe. Uc, termyt and others are doing a wonderful job and are doing a better job than i could do.

So i am just going to say this: we all make our own decisions. You have chosen to do your own thing- i have chosen to...obey blindly.

You could give 1000 reasons why God is evil.

You could be right.

But I have made my choice.

I may be wrong, but it seems more and more to me that humans makes choices first, then try to find reasons, be they theological, reasonalbe, or whatever, to justify thier choices.

You have made your choice. You have have found reasons to justify your choice. For those of us who have chosen Christ, we have made our choice and we have found reasons to justify that choice.

That's all i got to say.

ice

[Fsiphskilm]

Ice122985...your p

[uc pseudonym]

Lucifer was cast down from Heaven and became the entity we know as Satan, correct? All things came from God, including Lucifer, now Satan. Satan came from God.

If God wanted us to perceive good, he must introduce evil. If you never know the meaning of sadness, how can you experience happiness? How can you perceive one without the other? How can you accept good and turn away evil if you do not know what evil is? How can you learn from mistakes if you never make them? How can you become stronger without hardship? You need the comparison for either to have effect. So yes, one needs the other to work.

Even if God makes a new earth, evil will still exist in some place, at some time, hence the balance is preserved.

I feel that I addressed the majority of this in my previous post: good has meaning when there is the possibility of evil, not the existence of it. I agree that you cannot truly understand happiness without experiencing sadness, but I do not think that you cannot know what it is. Your third question I agree with: you must have something that is evil to be able to accept good. The next two I would raise opposing questions: Why do you need to learn from mistakes if you never make them? Why do you need to become stronger if nothing is difficult? (To take a metaphor from FFX, since it seems to be coming up regardless, why get into repeated random battles if you can kill the next boss with one Overdrive?)

However, you do bring up an entirely new point: a new earth. I cannot be certain if you meant an entirely original planet with new inhabitants. But if it is a new earth for the same people (who have already experienced sadness, evil and hardship in this life), why would there be a necessary compliment? I disagree that the listed opposites must exist together, though I will agree that in practice they often do.

Just one scripture. As varied as humanity is, it would be wise of God to give a different representation of himself to a variety of people. It is obvious that humanity cannot all agree on thing, so he gave them a choice. It would ensure that all the more of people would be saved no?

Or perhaps humanity was the one who chose to give God a face in the first place.

Only one scripture was quoted, but I am certain you understand that the unchanging nature of God is reiterated countless times in both parts of the Bible. Personally, I feel that God does have a certain aspect by which different people see different faucets of Him. I would not present the same, unchanging truth to everyone in the same way.

Let me bring up the elephant metaphor (yet again) to clarify that point. Let me clarify the metaphor for this purpose, as well: there is only one elephant, and many blind men saying that it is different things (or not there, etc). I do not believe that all religions are merely different explanations for God. Some of them say that the elephant is a tree. On the other hand, those who agree that it is an elephant do not necessarily agree about everything regarding that elephant. Furthermore, if you wish to show someone the elephant (or the elephant wishes to introduce itself to a blind man), there are different parts that the person could touch first. Same elephant, different presentation.

However, to deny them the opportunity of corruption, would be depriving them of free will.

You follow the logical extension of this (stated earlier) by saying that God can never effect the world directly without interfering with free will. This is at least a decent position, though I disagree. If I stop a person from killing someone, I have no more destroyed their free will than I stop the law of gravity by catching a falling apple. Free will is the ability to be able to choose to something, not to actually do it. Also, I think that a point made elsewhere was good: why would God choose a person so obviously corrupted? We have agreed that while much of humanity is evil, some of it is also good] However, it must be. If Satan served no purpose in the world, God would have removed him from existance. Yet he is necessary to provide a view opposite to the perceived good.[/quote]

Wouldn’t that be interfering with Satan’s free will, however? It certainly would be directly interfering. These are on different levels, yes, but I believe that as a created being Satan has the same principles applied. Aside, I am not inclined to believe that God eliminates anything that serves no purpose… I can think of a great many things that are useless but remain quite existent.

And by that token, saying God is always helping me along in my life, because I overcome my hardships, is also, inaccurate.

I am not certain what my response is to that. In some ways I would say that it is ultimately impossible for us to judge so hence it is not worth worrying about whether he has directly been involved, but that does not seem greatly helpful. I express this because I do not want it to appear that the point has been ignored.

Good point. However, comparing pedophilia to homosexuality is still somewhat flawed. You could see it as a much greater sin.

In one sense, I disagree. All sins separate a person equally from God. But in another, I do agree. Some sins cause incredible damage to the minds of people that will cause pain for years. Perhaps my points are not mutually exclusive, and I am merely applying two different levels of “greater.â€

[John316]

I somehow doubt he talks back. A matter of debate I know, so we should just leave it at a difference of opinion. His silence to me, speaks more than his words could. It makes you ask all the right questions in time, and seek your own answers.

God does not answer to everyone's prayers. Only those who are called by Him to believe will hear Him and be saved. To me it just seems that you are not called. It's unfortunate, but I'm thinking that you will not be saved, and were never meant to be. I'll be praying for you nonetheless.