Perhaps you can answer something for me...

[Lanrete]

[font=Verdana]Because I'm really curious as to hear your responses.

(If I have posted this in the wrong forum, please, by all means move it)

Before anyone gets on my case, realize that I merely ask for polite, logical replies, which would insinuate an interesting philosophical and religious discussion.

Nothing wrong with that right?

So let us begin with the basics...

As Christians, you follow the Bible; your law, the written word of God correct?

Alright. Now put that aside a moment.

Throughout history, man's very nature has been proven to be that of corruption. Through the dark times and the good, he has always looked to God for guidance and forgiveness. God's word has kept him strong in the darkest of times, against persecution and sin, and most importantly, kept him strong against his greatest rival; himself. All of humanity has a dark side, and God's word seeks to guide it from ever following it, correct?

We have seen evil men; tyrants, fascists and their ilk bring misery and pain to their people, spreading lies and corruption to gain what they desire. We have even seen apparently good men, with good intentions, eventually fall to temptation and their own folly, or watched their good intentions bring about bad results.

I'm sure you can all agree to that so far?

You've all played the game of telephone. Funny how whatever is said originally, never seems to come back does it?

We know that the Bible was passed on orally for hundreds of years before being written down, and even then, there were many versions of it that existed.

Still with me?

Assuming we lived in a perfect world, such stories and teachings would remain unchanged throughout time, as would their message.

However, we all know that we do not. Even someone with good intentions, could alter something in a small way in their telling of the story. That's not even taking into account someone with malicious intent.

Now multiply that by hundreds of generations.

The bible was written by man, and we know that man, by nature, is prone to his own folly.

So what's to say that in those hundreds of years the bible was been passed on, its message has not been skewed by man to suit his own purposes?

It's quite plausible no?


But, let us move on.

God said you should love your neighbor, as you would yourself. Love your enemy as you would love your friend; love and accept unconditionally. He is the judge, not you.

Yet, something as silly as…homosexuality, is enough to be exiled. I have seen families, friends, and churches all turn their backs on someone of their own faith just because they were gay. Even if they hated it, and wanted to rid themselves of it, they would still be ostracized. I’ve seen it in my travels across the US, I’ve even seen it here on these boards.

Why is that?

I’m not trying to mock here, it is a serious question. I do not understand why anyone of the Christian faith would do something of that nature. God told you, love one, love all. Where did the “except forâ€

[LorentzForce]

I am sure other people will (such as Technomancer who's reading this thread right now it seems) answer the questions so much better than I possible can, I'll leave the answers to them.

As for this thread, discussions do not belong in CAA. We're a group of Christians who likes anime (some say they love it, and they do), so this is only a community. For all your future theology discussions please do so in TheologyWeb, which its link can be found as a banner on top right side of this site.

[Technomancer]

Your post covers many different areas that are (and have been) worthy of entire books. Nevertheless, I'll try to answer some of them.

With regards to skewing the bible, in what sense do you mean in: textually or interpretatively? If in the latter case, then yes many people have sought justification for their own evils or prejudices in the bible and this has led to suffering. However, a person's misuse of a religious text does not invalidate the message of that text, especially when its spirit runs so counter to the evil that has been done on its authority. The message of the gospel must be evaluated on its own merits and not on the individual failings of its adherents.

If you mean that former case, that of textual corruption then I think the evidence indicates otherwise. For the New Testament certainly, we have numerous early copies of the relevant books and these are in good agreement with each other and with modern versions barring the odd copyist or translational error. In any event, they all predate the political ascendancy of Christianity so such machinations must be ruled out.

As far as your other points go, they are outside my experience altogether. There may be some churches where that goes on, but not in any one that I am personally familiar with. One may condemn homosexuality as being wrong, but recognize the humanity and dignity of homosexuals as people, as friends and as family. How can we love God if we do not love those who are made in His image? Moreover, such ostracism seems to me to be counter to the mission of the Church in the world.

Unfortunately, I don't have time to address everything right now, so I'll try and come back later.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

In regards to the praying section of your post. We rely upon Christ. Without Him we are nothing. Yes, we should do all we can to help those around us and bring people to Him but with God's help it is so much easier. We shouldn't rely upon ourselves, because like you said we are sinful beings prone to corruption.

There are battles going on inside our hearts and which ever voice we listen to will take effect in our actions. If we are tempted by Satan to do something (he plants the idea in our heads, we are the one's who choose whether to take action) we are led further away from Christ, but Christ is always there to welcome us back. If we ask Christ to strengthen us in our spiritual attacks we may grow in our faith and come in a closer relationship with Christ.

Don't look to humans, we are all sinful. Look to Christ. God's Word says to be Christ-like and many times this will be difficult but if we trust in him we find the strength to continue. The examples you give sadden me. That's what happen's when we don't listen to Christ but follow our own ideals, make up our own stupid doctrine that doesn't matter (our relationship with Christ and serving Him through others is the key issue here.

[Kura Ookami]

First christians are not beyond sinning. I can safely say that every single christian that has ever lived has sinned unless you count Jesus Himself as a christian. @For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." None of us are perfect and we all make mistakes.

I've read alot of such discussions on satanic boards and thought about topics such as these. It's true. People want possessions because people can be greedy. Let's use Christ Himself as an example of a perfect christian though. What possessions did He have? Very few.

I know these arent the best answers to the questions, but novody is perfect including christians. There are some hypocritical christians out there who do say one thing and do quite another. But let me ask you this? Does God in heaven have those things those possessions or do the priests and pastors who own the churches have them? I think you'll find the priests and pastors have them The priests and pastors are greedy. There's a bible verse ithat's on the tip of my tongue but i cant quite remember it. It went something like this. "If you say you're a christian yet do not act and behave like one then you're living a lie." That isnt the quote but the gist is that they're not really christians.

I have to say you're right. Christians are perhaps the most hypocritical people. "Take care of the plank in your own eye before you complain about the speck in anothers eye." Another bible verse though its just from memory so it's not exactly said like that. It's sad but true.

Technomancer is right. These questions could take yp a whole book to answer them but i hope ive helped at least a bit.

[YMHiK]

First I should say that everything I will say applies to me and only, therefore do not take anything personally. Second, I must admit that English is not my native toung and I will try my best to use it to describe whatever I've came up with. Third, since I don't have much time to answer now I will later.

Why do people turn to prayer so often instead of themselves? God gave you the power to change the things around you, and yet it’s squandered by constantly praying to him to do everything for you. Why not find that strength in yourself, by yourself? If you can use that power to help those around you, why pray to God to give you strength, when you, as his child can do so alone?

If one comes to realization that humans are WEAK in their nature, you will understand that NO one can manipulate their own lives to achieve his own wishes on his own. Couple examples: have you ever seen how often your goal changes through the day, or how often you cannot stand the same task over long period of time? Let me add to this that human mind changes as environment changes: if it is cold, worm, if you feel hungry or in a physical need, if you experience fellowship with your frends or feel lonely... most of the time you will think differently about things. Still not conviced? Have you ever experienced that your mind will be clearer after you take a nap? It all begs for conclusion that one cannot be permanent in his own decisions, that is partially reason we forget what we need to remember.
We need God to help us retain, or be stable or to continue our ideas. Be strong through all of our experiences to follow our own will. Our own power is a joke in a sence that we cannot even follow our own desires for long enough. However, even if humans cannot have great powers they have their own will to desire for things (or ideas if you will). It is the case were people ask God for help and they will get it unless they change their mind (to believe or not to believe in it).

Again, everything you hear or read must be take with careful consideration of how it applies to yourself.

IMHO

[termyt]

First, religious debate is discouraged on this site as we are primarily a group of anime fans who desire communion with other anime fans who have a similar belief system. There is a link on this site to Theology Web, where religious debate is the focus. Many of your questions could be discussed there at length. Since you have asked here and done so in a manner that suggests you are interested in the answers and not simply trying to ridicule those of a different belief system than your own, I will lend my voice to the chorus who feel led to reply.

[quote]God said you should love your neighbor, as you would yourself. Love your enemy as you would love your friend; love and accept unconditionally. He is the judge, not you.

Yet, something as silly as…homosexuality, is enough to be exiled. I have seen families, friends, and churches all turn their backs on someone of their own faith just because they were gay. Even if they hated it, and wanted to rid themselves of it, they would still be ostracized. I’ve seen it in my travels across the US, I’ve even seen it here on these boards.

Why is that?

I’m not trying to mock here, it is a serious question. I do not understand why anyone of the Christian faith would do something of that nature. God told you, love one, love all. Where did the “except forâ€

[uc pseudonym]

The ligitimacy of this thread is under review. At the moment I will do my best to form a coherent response to your post, but this thread is subject to being closed at any time.

Initially, I must echo that a full response would require books upon books, which is simply not practical in this format. However, I will make an effort to offer at least a decent response to everything that has been said.

Before anyone gets on my case, realize that I merely ask for polite, logical replies, which would insinuate an interesting philosophical and religious discussion.

Nothing wrong with that right?

Actually, theological discussion is generally forbidden on these forums, for reasons that have been stated repeatedly and can be found with fairly little effort. However, under certain conditions such has been permitted, and it remains to be seen if this thread falls under those exceptions.

[quote="Lanrete"]As Christians, you follow the Bible]

As Technomancer said, there is a great deal of factual evidence to consider outside of conceptual arguments, and I agree that it as a whole weighs against your position in terms of textual alterations. However, I will address what you said in greater terms than merely that.

To compare the movement of the Bible from its original form to the time of its writing to the game of telephone is to completely ignore aspects of the oral culture. Obviously, the metaphor is flawed in that the game is intended to confuse the original words and very tightly structured to that intent. Attacking your metaphor accomplishes nothing, but I think that similar principles hold true.

If, in the game of telephone, each person was allowed to ask the person to repeat what they had said, or return to the original person, would the message be twisted at the end? Hardly. Even if we include a rule to factor in death (a person cannot speak after the chain has passed them by a certain amount, or something similar) the message would not easily be lost.

Furthermore, in our “gameâ€

[uc pseudonym]

It seems to me that the portion I just quoted has two separate things being said.

One is the issue of prayer. In response to it I would merely say that to pray about an issue is not to do nothing about it. Even if you “give an issue up to Godâ€

[Chichiri]

Put simply, because people do not like to think and question anything. Lives are easier when they are lived upon only assumptions.

Which is okay, but sometimes I have to laugh when the above said people at the same time call themselves "free thinkers". Contradiction of terms eh.

[Lanrete]

Well, I must say I'm a bit...surprised. Nice responses throughout...and here I thought you were going to burn me at the stake...<smirk>

Allow me to address each point seperately; it will make things easier.

With regards to skewing the bible, in what sense do you mean in: textually or interpretatively?

...

If you mean that former case, that of textual corruption then I think the evidence indicates otherwise. For the New Testament certainly, we have numerous early copies of the relevant books and these are in good agreement with each other and with modern versions barring the odd copyist or translational error. In any event, they all predate the political ascendancy of Christianity so such machinations must be ruled out.

I did indeed mean the textual, which could then also be misinterpreted.

I mean, what if the corruption started at the top? Then any copy of said works would be flawed inherently.

We all know that absolute power corrupts absolutely. So, imagine if, before you, there was no knowledge of God. Or he had faded into obscurity. So he came down to you, and told you his will. You are to tell the people, what God relayed to you.

But as you walk down that mountaintop...you think to yourself...there isn't anything stopping you from twisting words a small bit. Everyone expects you to speak the words of God, so who would know the difference if you altered things a bit? By having God give you his word, in a sense, he has given you absolute power.

Or, you were taught by the one who spoke to God, but you and your peers decide to alter things a bit after the passing of said messenger. You spread your altered message. Suddenly, you have control over a massive group of people who follow your every word, because they believe it to be that of God. You establish a system which would then keep your organization in power for all time. And, if any of you have studied history, you know that the church has always maintained it's power and influence over the passing of time. Be it positive, or negative.

In regards to the praying section of your post. We rely upon Christ. Without Him we are nothing. Yes, we should do all we can to help those around us and bring people to Him but with God's help it is so much easier. We shouldn't rely upon ourselves, because like you said we are sinful beings prone to corruption.

See, this is where I cannot agree. Why use God's help? He gave you his own power to use, for yourself. The only way to become stronger is to use it on your own, not lean on a crutch. You misunderstand me when I spoke of corruption...we SHOULD rely on ourselves, but we shouldn't absolve ourselves of guilt and judgement. When hubris comes into play, you are neglecting a strength granted to you]If one comes to realization that humans are WEAK in their nature, you will understand that NO one can manipulate their own lives to achieve his own wishes on his own. Couple examples: have you ever seen how often your goal changes through the day, or how often you cannot stand the same task over long period of time? Let me add to this that human mind changes as environment changes: if it is cold, worm, if you feel hungry or in a physical need, if you experience fellowship with your frends or feel lonely... most of the time you will think differently about things.[/quote]

But humans are not weak. We just don't realize how strong we are, and hence label ourselves so. If we are truly God's children, then we possess the strength of God. How can you then say, we are weak?

Could you not look at those examples and see that as versatility? Ever notice how humanity has this wonderful ability to adapt to everything?

If God is indeed omnipotent, or at least, influencing all things in some small shape or form, is he not doing the same thing as we but on a much larger scale? Things never get done in a day as they say, and if God has some master plan, then it's obvious that not all of his plans come into fruition in one day.

Still not conviced? Have you ever experienced that your mind will be clearer after you take a nap? It all begs for conclusion that one cannot be permanent in his own decisions, that is partially reason we forget what we need to remember.

I fail to see how you derive that conclusion. Our minds are overworked and need a break. Didn't God himself rest after creating all that he did? He needed to clear his mind as well.

You have made a fairly common error in your logic here. You have made an erroneous link between love and acceptance. No where in scripture will you find a command to accept unconditionally. Far from it. Love is not about accepting, it is about serving. Both Christ and the apostle Paul condemned those who did wrong in the eyes of God and we have no better examples to follow.

Have I?

Love: warm attachment, enthusiasm, or devotion

Nowhere do I see love as being servitude. If love was servitude, it would not be love, it would be...well...servitude.

Servitude: a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life

God gave us free will, therefore how could he expect love to be a form of servitude? That would imply you have no choice in the matter.

If you love someone, you have to accept them for who and what they are. If you cannot do so, then you are incapable of loving them. In that case, it is called tolerance.

Point out to me a few passages where Christ condemned people if you could please.

The homosexual life style is sinful and not compatible with the Christian lifestyle, but that is not to say that homosexuals themselves are beyond the reach of God or the compassion of Christians. Homosexuality itself is a sin, but no more so than any other. Lying, cheating, stealing, all of these are just as bad as the act of homosexuality.

Then why do Christians turn them away as if they were devilspawn? If homosexuality is a sin, then that is on their head. It is up to them to be forgiven by God when they stand before him. Shouldn't Christians still treat them as equals and not play judge?

Those who live the life of a homosexual I condemn. Those who are homosexual and turn from that life to a Godly one, I accept with open arms.

If I may ask...who are you to condemn? Is that not God's job as the ultimate judge? Should you not treat them as anyone else who has sinned? Lying is a sin, but people still do it regardless, and consider themselves Christians. So if homosexuality stands by that same token, why do you not condemn Christians who have lied after accepting the faith?

That's not even touching the disputed fact of whether or not homosexuality is genetic. And if it is, then why must they forced to be miserable for their entire lives?

But I digress...

*snip*

Simply put, why would God allow His words to be corrupted over time?

The first part of your post addressing mine I believe I already answered earlier in this reply, so simply refer to that.

But as to your question...

To eventually force his children to stand up on their own without him constantly holding their hand.

However, you also said that you had seen it on these boards. Could you be more specific as to where? If such exists (and our definitions agree) it would be important to us that it be handled.

You would prosecute one of your own admins? I read through some of your ban lists. One individual openly admitted being gay, and was told to leave. In response to such a request, she expressed her disgust, which was seen as hostility, and hence banned.

Not really much of a choice don't you think? Leave or be banned. That's ostracizm to me.

[Snip.]

[Lanrete]

However, I believe that as a whole He does not give mere whims that should be disregarded by a critical mind. If they were no more than that, why would He ever state them as commands?

But the only real "commands" that he gave, at least in my opinion, would be the 10 commandments. And if you think about it, those do stand the test of time. However...the rest? Questionable. Changable over time. As long as you follow the main 10, you should be fine.

Now I would ask you to tell me something… was your lack of faith derived from your own conclusions or were you merely driven to it by those who have taught you? If you were raised in a nonchristian environment, your question applies to yourself. If you were raised in a Christian one, could it be that you are merely rebelling against what you were taught? Furthermore, you describe many terrible situations in which Christians undeniably have done wrong. Did you decide against Christianity’s teachings simply because you did not like its followers or because you actually rejected them?

You wish to know of me...?

Hmmm...I somehow have a feeling you won't like my answer. But, seeing as you asked politely, I'll answer anyway.

I was raised a Roman Catholic. Not overly strict, but I was expected to follow all the traditions. And...I followed. Although I have to say it was moreso out of fear of burning in hell, disappointing my parents, and wanting to do "the right thing".

However, over time, too many things didn't make sense. I saw the corruption present in the church]The previous paragraph appears quite aggressive, and though it was meant to appear so, let me assure you that I in no way mean to suggest that such things are actually true. If you wish to ask those questions of yourself, feel free, but I in no way demand them of you. My intent was solely to point out that the question of inherited beliefs is hardly limited to the religious.[/quote]

Hah...please...no offense taken. Don't feel the need to walk on glass around me. ^_^

If the Old Testament is to be taken seriously, many persons prior to Judaism were considered holy and it is reasonable to assume that different rules applied prior to the current rules being given.

Don't mean to snip the other part of your point, which was good, but your last statement is something I wanted to address.

So you're willing to admit that the rules can change over time yes? What if new rules had already been given, but they had been suppressed by the church, which has been in place so long? (We could probably go 50/50 on that one, kinda shaky without getting into tedious details)

Or, perhaps we've reached a stage where God wants us to make our own rules, to be able to live life comfortably, while still following the 10 initial rules he set down.

I believe that all of us will agree that such is decidedly unchristian behavior. This relates in a way to the previous issue of judgment… surely you would agree that it would be our place to point out to the Christians that did such that they should show more love?

And yet, in their minds, they are merely shunning those wrongdoers as they believe Christ did.

I would hope that all of us agree that money taken up by churches is in no way going to God. Of course an omnipotent god is never in need of money. One cannot say the same for pastors, nor do buildings generally materialize out of thin air.

That was moreso a light-hearted jab at the church. I was of course, inferring the greedy priests and heads of the churches. Yet they always seem to say that God is asking people to donate to that cause.

However, I do not in any way wish to deny that many churches (and individuals) squander their money on things they should not be doing. I am sickened by the fact that some churches are continually renovating or adorning when there are millions of people dying of hunger or lack of adequate shelter.

I can definately agree to that. Although I am of the belief you need no church to show respect to your deity. If you are truly faithful in your heart, then your deity already knows this, hence attending church would be somewhat moot. But I digress.

It doesn’t have to be that way, though. I can obviously only speak for my own church, but a very small percentage of the tithes of its members goes for the church itself, or even for its staff. The vast majority of it goes to shelter the homeless, to feed the hungry, to cure the sick.

You'd be surprised how often that isn't the case.

Just as we would all agree on the corruption of man, could we all agree that not all mankind must be corrupted?

But of course. The oriental cultures had the right idea thousands of years ago. The Yin and Yang. Everything hangs in a delicate balance. And as there are those corrupted, there will always be those who are not.

Apologies for the belated reply. I hope I can get some more discussion out of you.

[Mave]

Lanrete,

Judging based on what you've shared, you've been hurt greatly by ppl who profess themselves as Christians. It feels like a huge betrayal, the ones who are supposed to be your supporters, friends....all turn against you.

I can't say I've completely felt what you've gone through personally (not to your extent probably) but I've gone through enough to feel resentment, anger and mistrust towards Christians. I'm probably stating the obvious but they weren't kidding when they said that the hurt caused by Christians is way painful than being hurt by non-believers.

I grew up hearing Christian bad-mouth and fight other Christians. I've heard ppl talk about money and the church (my family never gave offerings out of fear <-- bizarre but true). I came close to fighting it out with my church authority simply because we didn't agree on what type of music we should listen to and how one should be baptized and pray. We had a friend who was rejected because he decided to have a non-believer girlfriend and didn't tell them for a long time out of fear. I've been told that I haven't been giving my all when I'm losing my sleep and eating schedule due to a terribly hectic evangelical schedule. My interest in anime/manga was never approved by my church authority and they in fact, always hinted that I should give it up. Not a word on encouraging my drawing skills. There are many other things that left me steaming silently over for a long time, I told myself..."I cannot fight authority. It's not right....God chose them, I must submit."

My church always used to quote that Hebrews verse (i think) the one that states "Submit to your authorities bla bla." Now, in the final year, my Christian brother and I were not chosen to be student leaders even if we were senior and had more experience. No, don't get me wrong, I'm not power-crazy that I would want a position or something. What really got under my skin was learning that that our church authority described us two as "unteachable" behind our backs....Why? Simply because we had our own opinion about certain things and would not receive the church's doctrines. Wow...if only they had the guts to say it straight to our faces....I must admit I still steam over it whenever I think about it...

The last straw was when they alienated my Christian boyfriend simply because he doesn't believe in some of their doctrines and only attended their bible study. I was terribly hurt and confused when this all happened. Why are they doing this? Does your value depend on how often you go to church, how much you give, what friends you have, how you serve? My goodness, has the world gone crazy? They're Christians!!....how could they treat other Christians that way? My poor boyfriend. He just doesn't feel comfortable worshipping "openly" (you know clapping, dancing that type of stuff) and he doesn't do tongues. Does that merit alienation? I don't think so. It takes A LOT to offend me and this really blew me away.


Now, I'm saying this because I've had to put up with a lot of trash from fellow Christians who thought they were doing the right thing. It's not easy to forgive those who hurt us....especially Christians since they "ought to know better". My fellowship dissolved early this year and the healing process is still undergoing. I had a very TOUGH time forgiving them. There were times I thought to myself, "I have every darn right to be mad at them. They just proved to me why ppl hate Christians!"

SO, what did God ask me to do in this situation? You won't believe it. He moved me to APOLOGIZE to my church leaders before we dissolved everything. In the middle of our last prayer meeting, I was fighting it out with the Spirit. "WHATT??? WHat on earth?? Are you kidding? No way, am I going to apologize to THEM?!! They're "skewering" me, not the other way around!" But in the end, it took all my strength to swallow my pride and to say sorry for any hostile feelings/actions against them. I cried a long time after that while my christian brother comforted me, "Hey, you did the right thing. That was brave."

Now I can confidently say that I'm glad I obeyed the Spirit because it set me free from guilt. I've been forgiven for any grudges I've held against them. Were they wrong? Maybe. But then again, I'm not completely sinless. Also, I've learnt a valuable lesson. Christians are ppl who are imperfect and can be less than merciful. But that doesn't change who God is. God remains Loving, Faithful and Awesome. It was quite difficult, I could only pray for God to sustain my faith as I floated after my fellowship dissolved. I didn't want to join another church, in fear that I would be treated in the same way again. I told God that I didn't want to blame Him for the things and ppl that went wrong in my life. They're not perfect. I seeked Him in my own for many months while I was still healing from it all. God must have a reason for putting me through all this. What lesson does He want me to learn?

It was CAA members and my few faithful Christian friends offline who really carried me through this difficult process. THEY demonstrated Christian love that I never experiencd before and reinforced the truth that Christ changes ppl for the better. Yes, some Christians do wrong...but there are also a whole bunch of Christians out there who truly seek/obey God and MEAN it, by their actions. It's because of these true and faithful Christians that I never lose hope in what Christ can do in people.

I hope you'll find sincere and honest Christians friends offline and here in CAA. You said that you've rejected this faith but I shall pray just that for you anyway and also for healing. I hope you will experience God's Love and accept the Healing that comes with it coz nothing else can ease the hurt. I've found that I don't mind going through pain and challenges as long as I know that someone understands me and stays by my side at all times. God has done just that and that's why, despite what I've gone through, I'm clinging on to my faith and won't let go. If I let go, I'll have nothing left.

I'm sorry if I rambled away for so long. It's something that I felt I needed to share to those who may have gone through the same thing as well. I guess I didn't answer a single question for you, Lanrete but I hope that there just might be just a little bit of encouragement there for you somewhere in my huge rambling. I'll try to answer some questions you've posted here later on. There is much for me to learn too. Pls be patient with me, thanks!

[Fsiphskilm]

Read other bible versi

[Mr. SmartyPants]

something that stood out for me

You've all played the game of telephone. Funny how whatever is said originally, never seems to come back does it?

We know that the Bible was passed on orally for hundreds of years before being written down, and even then, there were many versions of it that existed.

yes, many people say that. But what about, lets say. Greek playwrites? they have been passed down longer than the Bible itself has i believe, and all the translations are correct.

And actually, St. Pauls letters, (romans, galations, corinthians, ephesians, timothy, peter, most of the letters, but not all) which came before the Gospels, were not too long from the death and ressurection of Jesus. (approx 40 A.D.) And The first Gospel, The Gospel of Mark, was written in I think 60-70 A.D.

glad for you to come Lanrete =)

I like to say that religion is boring and dumb. All those weird rules people make are just dumb. BUT a relationship with God is what Christianity is all about

[Nate]

Why use God's help? He gave you his own power to use, for yourself. The only way to become stronger is to use it on your own, not lean on a crutch.

Because we are to become more like Christ, who was both God and Man, and as such was the only perfect human to have lived. Christ prayed constantly, and as we are to follow His example, it leads to believe that we should pray as much, if not more so, than He.

But humans are not weak. We just don't realize how strong we are, and hence label ourselves so. If we are truly God's children, then we possess the strength of God. How can you then say, we are weak?

...for ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God... - Romans 3:23, emphasis added

Nowhere do I see love as being servitude. If love was servitude, it would not be love, it would be...well...servitude.

Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children 2 and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. - Ephesians 5:1

6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. - Romans 5:6-8

Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. - John 15:13

26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave--28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." - Matthew 20:26-28

You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature]If you love someone, you have to accept them for who and what they are. If you cannot do so, then you are incapable of loving them. In that case, it is called tolerance.[/QUOTE]
I believe someone may have said this elsewhere, but it is BECAUSE God loves us that He does not want us to stay in sin. He is a holy, righteous God, who cannot stand to look upon sin. Therefore, He wants us to change our ways. After all:

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? - Romans 6:1-2

You can be a liar, a murderer, an adulterer, when you come to Christ...but it is because He loves us that He does not want us to stay that way. Simliarly, anyone who professes to be a homosexual and that they cannot change, in my opinion is merely too lazy to put forth the effort to change his or her lifestyle.

Point out to me a few passages where Christ condemned people if you could please.

I would be glad to. The best example is Matthew 23:13-39. I will not post it here, as it is too long, but it is in the temple when Christ condemns the Pharisees.

If I may ask...who are you to condemn? Is that not God's job as the ultimate judge? Should you not treat them as anyone else who has sinned?

That is the fault of certain churches, and not all Christians. Besides, pointing out someone's sin is not judging them, merely helping them to grow in their faith.

I know if I live a good life, helping those around me in need, while still being able to enjoy it while I'm here, God will forgive me when I stand before him.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. - John 14:6, emphasis added

Factor in the many contraditions the bible itself has, and you can see why I choose not to follow it.

Since I supplied you with verses as per request, could you please point out specific examples of where the Bible contradicts itself?

But the only real "commands" that he gave, at least in my opinion, would be the 10 commandments. And if you think about it, those do stand the test of time. However...the rest? Questionable. Changable over time. As long as you follow the main 10, you should be fine.

Really, there's only two commandments:

29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: `Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31 The second is this: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." - Mark 12:29-31

Also, the point of Christ's death is NO ONE can follow the Old Law and be righteous in God's eyes. That is why we needed Christ to die for us.

I hope I have been of some help.

[uc pseudonym]

Initially; thank you for responding. Of late I have become tired of "intellectual hooligans", or persons who join forums, post extensive arguments and then never return to them. It appears there will be actual exchange here.

The current status of this thread is positive. It will not be locked unless it becomes a vicious argument. Those interested in continued discussion, keep this in mind.

Before I begin this set of posts, let me preface my remarks with a rather vague statement. There are others posting here as well, and that makes the nature of the argument rather fractured. At times I will not address an issue that has already been covered, in that I do not wish to be redundant; on the other hand, I cannot be assumed to approve of everything I do not mention. I realize that is rather vague and possibly a pointless statement, but I wish to generally clarify.

I mean, what if the corruption started at the top? Then any copy of said works would be flawed inherently.

We all know that absolute power corrupts absolutely. So, imagine if, before you, there was no knowledge of God. Or he had faded into obscurity. So he came down to you, and told you his will. You are to tell the people, what God relayed to you.

But as you walk down that mountaintop...you think to yourself...there isn't anything stopping you from twisting words a small bit. Everyone expects you to speak the words of God, so who would know the difference if you altered things a bit? By having God give you his word, in a sense, he has given you absolute power.

Or, you were taught by the one who spoke to God, but you and your peers decide to alter things a bit after the passing of said messenger. You spread your altered message. Suddenly, you have control over a massive group of people who follow your every word, because they believe it to be that of God. You establish a system which would then keep your organization in power for all time. And, if any of you have studied history, you know that the church has always maintained it's power and influence over the passing of time. Be it positive, or negative.

In this context, I will admit your point has not truly been addressed. However, your point is also highly theoretical and cannot be proved in either direction. It is about as legitimate to claim that the text has never been corrupted in any way. This is addressed partially in my own post, and I will speak to your response at a later time.

The issue of prayer has been muddied by a great many responses. At the moment I will let it be]Have I?

Love: warm attachment, enthusiasm, or devotion

Nowhere do I see love as being servitude. If love was servitude, it would not be love, it would be...well...servitude.

Servitude: a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life

God gave us free will, therefore how could he expect love to be a form of servitude? That would imply you have no choice in the matter.[/quote]

Here we have a vast difference in definitions. I would point out that the word used was "serving" not "servitude" which, while derived from the same root, in this context has very different meaning.

I will not speak on this subject extensively, but I believe that in context it is wrong to define love in the sense that you did. This is a common error in many Christian groups that has led to ambiguous faith. Jesus made the statement "Those who love me obey my commandments" and I believe this serves as a decent definition. In most cases Christians do not mean an emotion when they refer to love, they mean being kind to a person, treating them as you would wish to be treated, etc.

If you love someone, you have to accept them for who and what they are. If you cannot do so, then you are incapable of loving them. In that case, it is called tolerance.

I must disagree entirely. If my father was a serial killer, I would still love him, but I do not have to accept his crime. That is not meant to be a comparison, I am merely saying that respecting a person does not mean that you must accept everything they do. However, at this point we might reach an impasse.

Point out to me a few passages where Christ condemned people if you could please.

This has already been done in other posts. Again, however, I would hold that some of the clash in points results from a difference in definitions. Condemnation of actions does not have to be attacking and bitter.

To cite an example: given your upbringing, you are probably familiar with the story in which Jesus defends a prostitute (Let he who is without sin cast the first stone). Following this, however, he tells the woman "Now go and sin no more." This is a classic example of the oft-repeated doctrine of "love the sinner, hate the sin."

Then why do Christians turn them away as if they were devilspawn? If homosexuality is a sin, then that is on their head. It is up to them to be forgiven by God when they stand before him. Shouldn't Christians still treat them as equals and not play judge?

Come now, that is a rather blanket statement, is it not?

However, even a cursory reading of the New Testament will show that it is a Christian's place to help others with their sin.

That's not even touching the disputed fact of whether or not homosexuality is genetic. And if it is, then why must they forced to be miserable for their entire lives?

I realize that this does not strictly answer your question, but could not that argument be applied to pedopheliacs, were that also genetic?

To eventually force his children to stand up on their own without him constantly holding their hand.

That position, however, applies only if we are to accept everything else about your argument. If we accept that this is God's goal, then yes, that would respond to my point. However, that is rather intrinsic to the subject of debate.

You would prosecute one of your own admins? I read through some of your ban lists. One individual openly admitted being gay, and was told to leave. In response to such a request, she expressed her disgust, which was seen as hostility, and hence banned.

I did not say prosecute. I meant dealt with in a Christian context, that is, addressing the person kindly and attempting to reach a positive solution.

Without specific names I cannot give a true response, but I believe I am generally safe in saying that if you read only the ban thread, you do not have the entire story. As far as I remember, no one has ever been banned solely because they professed to be homosexual. There have been (and are) several members who have been something other than straight and have been permitted to stay.

However, there is one possibility about which we might differ. If a person intends to push pro-homosexual arguments on the forums, they are in direct violation of our policies. In this case, yes, they will be banned. I feel that this is justified as it is no more than trolling.

We will see if I yet have time to respond properly to your second post...

[uc pseudonym]

But the only real "commands" that he gave, at least in my opinion, would be the 10 commandments. And if you think about it, those do stand the test of time. However...the rest? Questionable. Changable over time. As long as you follow the main 10, you should be fine.

Ironically enough, I disagree with you. The ten commandments are derived from exactly the same source as the rest of the law, and are hence just as susceptible to the corruption you have brought up. They must either be disregarded with the rest of the Bible or carry with them a great deal more.

Furthermore (presuming we are to accept the Bible in totality), the ten commandments are not the greatest expression of God's will. Many Christians seem to believe this, and I could not disagree more. To properly understand such things, we must look to Jesus.

You wish to know of me...?

Actually, no, my questions were wholly theoretical. Thank you regardless, it gives a better framework for discussion. Many of my friends have far more vitriolic stories, so I do not really have a problem with your answer.

Today I follow a faith you probably would not tolerate.

Since we have gone down this thread, we may as well complete it. Mostly out of curiosity, what faith?

(Assuming that is the case. I've resigned myself to believing there is a higher being, but as to how he really thinks and acts, we cannot be too sure. Just look at how many religions there are. It seems to me like he has many faces.)

I feel certain you have heard the metaphor of several blind men with an elephant, all claiming that it is something different (none of them knowing it is an elephant). That strikes me as a good explanation of why the world has so many religions. Man wishes to know about God, and often seeks such a being.

Where the metaphor falls short, however, is that the elephant cannot reveal itself to the blind men. Alone, they will only produce inaccurate guesses. But if it could say "I am an elephant" the problem would be resolved. Other men could believe it was whatever they had felt it to be, but any of the men that accepted its word would know the truth.

So you're willing to admit that the rules can change over time yes? What if new rules had already been given, but they had been suppressed by the church, which has been in place so long? (We could probably go 50/50 on that one, kinda shaky without getting into tedious details)

Agreed, it is shaky ground. I will say this: I in no way intend to say that rules would be given, but rather that they would be used. It is my belief that God will judge every human being fairly, and I believe that to be fair different factors will be taken into account. I do not believe that He is running around and giving us equations for salvation or damnation.

And yet, in their minds, they are merely shunning those wrongdoers as they believe Christ did.

That does not make their actions or their beliefs right. One purpose of the greater church is to keep believers from inventing such things.

That was moreso a light-hearted jab at the church. I was of course, inferring the greedy priests and heads of the churches. Yet they always seem to say that God is asking people to donate to that cause.

You join a great many Christians in your light-hearted jabbing.

I can definately agree to that. Although I am of the belief you need no church to show respect to your deity. If you are truly faithful in your heart, then your deity already knows this, hence attending church would be somewhat moot. But I digress.

I will share in your digression a moment here. Most Christians (I would hope) do not go to church because it earns them Heaven Points (redeemable for eternal salvation at the nearest death). Assuming the church is healthy (you seem to have bad luck with that aspect), it can provide a community to support people who need support, or provide accountability, or collectively do more good than an individual is capable of.

I hope I can get some more discussion out of you.

If I continue to have time I will do my best.

[EireWolf]

[quote]I’ve had “good-willedâ€

[Lanrete]

Interesting...very interesting indeed.

I shall answer as before...piece by piece,, point by point. I'll try not to be redundant.

*snip*

I hope you'll find sincere and honest Christians friends offline and here in CAA. You said that you've rejected this faith but I shall pray just that for you anyway and also for healing. I hope you will experience God's Love and accept the Healing that comes with it coz nothing else can ease the hurt. I've found that I don't mind going through pain and challenges as long as I know that someone understands me and stays by my side at all times. God has done just that and that's why, despite what I've gone through, I'm clinging on to my faith and won't let go. If I let go, I'll have nothing left.

I'm sorry if I rambled away for so long. It's something that I felt I needed to share to those who may have gone through the same thing as well. I guess I didn't answer a single question for you, Lanrete but I hope that there just might be just a little bit of encouragement there for you somewhere in my huge rambling. I'll try to answer some questions you've posted here later on. There is much for me to learn too. Pls be patient with me, thanks!

Hmmm...interesting story. Have you ever thought, and I do not mean to offend in any way, that the voice you heard asking to apologize to the church was not that of God, but your own?

As for Christian friends, I have plenty. The difference with them is that they don't follow the church. The hold the ideas of Christ close to them, but they're a little more freelance than most. Most accept the possibilities of the points I have presented here today.

I appreciate the prayer...but I don't think it will really change things...God, if he expects anything of me, would want me to find the strength in myself to trudge on in life, and by how well I do, he shall judge me.

You didn't ramble, you told of your personal experience. I admire your continued faith despite the transgressions against you, even if I can't agree with it.

Somehow i don't beleive your story about the woman being rejected by her church and called a satanist. I don't beleive a word of it
edit:...actually...i'll buy it.

I could give you the number of the pastor who resigned as a result of it if you like. Assuming I can find it]Just becuase we don't accept Homosexuality doens't mean we are close-minded. What's next huh? Accepting Child molesters? Or poeple who have sex with animals? or Incest? Or satanist? WE ARE CHRISTIANS, WE HAVE MORALS... and we are blessed children of God and without us the USA would not be what it is today. The constitution states it, Mr. Adams said it, Our Dollar bills, Our Pledge of Allegence says who we are and what we stand for.[/quote]

Hmm, interesting point. However, homosexuality does not fall into the same category. For one, it is not a crime. Secondly, it is between two consenting individuals. Child molesters, rapists, and those who practice beastiality, tend to be of the one sided kind. They are forcefully imposing on another for their own enjoyment. The respect in that case, has been lost. Incest was practiced commonly, especially among royalty for hundreds of years; long after Christ. These days we know it can cause a lot of problems as far as genetics, and diseases goes. Not to say I support it, but just a point of view. As for satanists, it really depends what kind you're looking at. Some satanists merely see themselves as such because the oppose any and all organized religion in the pursuit of ultimate knowledge, not necessarily that they worship the dark lord. (That's not to say I believe what they do, nor do I particularly like them, they are very strict and unforgiving people. They have no tolerance for any form of weakness) That, and if God is all encompassing, you must realize that Satan is a part of God himself; good cannot exist without evil, nor can evil exist without good, for without the other to complement, it loses all meaning. That might be more than most Christians are willing to chew though.

I never said you didn't have morals, no need to get angry with me.

We are NOT chaning our ways anytime soon, A man ---- his ---- up another man's ---- is not love, it's just plain disguisting. I was gay for 6 years, so i can talk the talk because i've been there, done that and walked the walk. I've had gay freinds, I've had gay teachers, I've had gay neighbors, And I'm telling you now, there is a way out, there is a cure. If I make it sound like a desease then I'll proudly stand tall and say YES, IT IS A DESEASE.

A disease? Forgive me, but I cannot agree to that. Why is it not so easily curable? You might be able to overcome it through sheer willpower, but that doesn't change the fact that it is genetic. It is merely how your body and mind are programmed. It happens in the animal kingdom, isn't that enough proof that it is inherited through nature?

Why is it you see so many Christians, who truly hate the fact they are gay]My freind *gives a pat on back* you need to get out more before blaming The Catholic church's problems on all christians in general... The Catholic church is one of many religions. Do not assume the Catholic church is the Head of Christianity.[/quote]

I do not merely speak of the Catholic church. I've been to quite a number of various kinds in my travels around the states.

When your dad's abused and hit you, you were gay your teen years, you were abused and name called in school, adicted to porn (all catagories ) told you were worthless and stupid by your father, lost freinds, you had MPD age 10-17. Let me tell you something YOU ARE WEEKm you need GOD. Period.

Do I? God wasn't the one who stopped me from killing myself. God wasn't the one who made me stronger and self sufficient. God had nothing to do with anything really. He just sat back, smiled and watched as I got myself out of my own ruts. I would hardly consider that weak. I shall do the best with what I can. It's all I can do. ^_^

Once again..we are NOT savages on an island.

It was a joke my friend.

So you completely threw out Jesus? And here you are trying to open our minds?

So anyone who does not share your beliefs is close-minded?

Welcome to the club... Like i said, get out more and become more experience in religons other than Catholicism dude. There's a whole other world out there. I think it is very sad to see a mentally intellectuall christian like you give it all up, just because you were following the wrong religion for you.

Read other bible versions other than the Catholic bible, other translations. And share these Contradictions you have found... Most of them aren't contradictions at all. The bible was written by many different poeple for a reason. To show it all, that God's life and truth is compatable with all walks of life. To one man it is a a sin to do this, while to another it is not... This is not a contradiction but a Truth. THe bible wouldn't be true if it weren't for these Deemed "contradictions"

That is true, there is a world out there, and I have seen it. I do not place my faith in Christianity, or any organized religion for that matter. I do not trust the writings of man, and I shall take my chances.

God has but ONE face... it's the hypicrites that keep dividing him and claiming to be his "workers". Satan's greatest Weapon is christianity itself. Using it to confuse and seperate us.

In order for God to be omnipotent and all encompassing, he cannot possess but one face.

...for ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God... - Romans 3:23, emphasis added

I never said we were equal, or greater than God.

26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave--28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." - Matthew 20:26-28

You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature]

I stand corrected. However, in that case, I do not agree with it.

Since I supplied you with verses as per request, could you please point out specific examples of where the Bible contradicts itself?

I cannot think of any specific examples off the top of my head. I'm sorry I cannot provide specific examples, so I suppose you have me beat in that aspect. It has been seven years since I last cracked the Bible.

29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: `Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31 The second is this: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." - Mark 12:29-31

Hmmm, good reference. <notes>

[Contd.]

[Lanrete]

However, your point is also highly theoretical and cannot be proved in either direction. It is about as legitimate to claim that the text has never been corrupted in any way.

Quite true, however I find it more plausable (knowing man) to believe it became corrupted rather than it remaining pure over time.

I must disagree entirely. If my father was a serial killer, I would still love him, but I do not have to accept his crime. That is not meant to be a comparison, I am merely saying that respecting a person does not mean that you must accept everything they do. However, at this point we might reach an impasse.

Mmm...I don't know how to answer that. You have a point.

I realize that this does not strictly answer your question, but could not that argument be applied to pedopheliacs, were that also genetic?

However, pedophilia, genetic or not, is not between two consenting individuals. (No exceptions, they don't make the rule) One individual is forcing themselves on another. There is no mutual respect when it comes to both parties.

Without specific names I cannot give a true response, but I believe I am generally safe in saying that if you read only the ban thread, you do not have the entire story. As far as I remember, no one has ever been banned solely because they professed to be homosexual. There have been (and are) several members who have been something other than straight and have been permitted to stay.

Mmm...the admin did give a number of details in the thread explaining the entire story to those who were curious, so I don't know.

Ironically enough, I disagree with you. The ten commandments are derived from exactly the same source as the rest of the law, and are hence just as susceptible to the corruption you have brought up. They must either be disregarded with the rest of the Bible or carry with them a great deal more.

True enough. However, the general idea of the 10 commandments is something that has been embraced by all major religions as a path to a good life, and even by those not religiously affiliated. That's what I was really getting at with that point.

Since we have gone down this thread, we may as well complete it. Mostly out of curiosity, what faith?

Mmmm....you really want to know?

It is mostly my own, based on experience.

Allow me a slight tirade here...

As a child, I always had this...affinity with things. I can sense feelings, thoughts, vibes coming from other people and things. I could also project and manipulate such things.

But raised under the Christian faith, I was terrified of ever exploring that power. The line was something to the effect of "All wizards and sorcerers shall be denied before the gates of Heaven, forever to burn in the lake of fire, the second death."

However...it felt like such a natural affinity...that eventually I embraced it. I see the world as comprised of energy. From spirits, feelings, people, thoughts, everything. (Do not confuse me for wiccan, for I am not.) All of that energy is interconnected, it can be manipulated, magnified, reduced]Where the metaphor falls short, however, is that the elephant cannot reveal itself to the blind men. Alone, they will only produce inaccurate guesses. But if it could say "I am an elephant" the problem would be resolved. Other men could believe it was whatever they had felt it to be, but any of the men that accepted its word would know the truth.[/quote]

However, with those blind men...there are other elephants around all saying "No no, I'm an elephant!"

I will share in your digression a moment here. Most Christians (I would hope) do not go to church because it earns them Heaven Points (redeemable for eternal salvation at the nearest death). Assuming the church is healthy (you seem to have bad luck with that aspect), it can provide a community to support people who need support, or provide accountability, or collectively do more good than an individual is capable of.

If only all churches embraced that ideal. From what I have seen, it seems like a mandate every week. You must attend or suffer. So you attend to avoid punishment and the label of "unfaithful".

I pray that you meet some true Christians -- people who truly follow Christ and are becoming more like Him. Hopefully that will bring a little balance to your views of Christianity.

I have met them...but it seems the majority of Christians do not follow the same idealistic standards.


Hmmm, this is an interesting discussion indeed.

[Technomancer]

Well, I must say I'm a bit...surprised. Nice responses throughout...and here I thought you were going to burn me at the stake...<smirk>

Then perhaps you should reconsider your views. The sort of experiences that you have mentioned are in the far minority.

I did indeed mean the textual, which could then also be misinterpreted.

I mean, what if the corruption started at the top? Then any copy of said works would be flawed inherently.

We all know that absolute power corrupts absolutely. So, imagine if, before you, there was no knowledge of God. Or he had faded into obscurity. So he came down to you, and told you his will. You are to tell the people, what God relayed to you.

But would God, being all-knowing as he is chose someone so unreliable, would he not give them the grace to avoid temptation in this regard? Would a person, having just experienced revelation from on high be so blase about the experience that he would feel no fear in "adjusting" what he had been told?

There really is no argument to this, because your own is based on so much speculation. In the end, it comes down to faith and trust.

You establish a system which would then keep your organization in power for all time. And, if any of you have studied history, you know that the church has always maintained it's power and influence over the passing of time. Be it positive, or negative.

It is because I have studied history that I believe as I do. And it is because I have studied history that I am aware that whatever the sins of its individual members, the good that it has done in the world has far outweighed the bad.

But humans are not weak. We just don't realize how strong we are, and hence label ourselves so. If we are truly God's children, then we possess the strength of God. How can you then say, we are weak?

Being "children of God" does not make us like God ourselves, which is a logical flaw in this argument. I don't think that humans are wholly, irredeemably bad, but the scales are weighted. It is easy to say that we should love our neighbours or our enemies. It is easy to say we should we have a little self-discipline and not to sin. But it can be the hardest thing in the world when you are frightened or angry or desperate. The manifold tradgedies of human life, from ordinary bungalows to the lives of nations are proof enough of this.

There is much that is good in human nature, and there is at least some part of us that sincerely seeks the divine. There is a lot we can do that is within our abilities as human beings, and we have progressed significantly from past errors. However, individually and collectively we always fall short of what we could be.

But I will not follow something which I believe to be crafted by man to meet his own ends. Regardless of what anyone says, the church holds such tremendous power of the world it's almost terrifying. Who's to say those leaders have not become corrupted? And yet so many follow their lead.

Factor in the many contraditions the bible itself has, and you can see why I choose not to follow it. I don't agree with everything that is presented either. There are things that simply do not make sense. But that's a whole other book

Suffice it to say that having studied the history of the Church and its theological and historical claims to primacy I am in agreement with them. The Church has and does today hold enormous influence- as it should in its role. You claim "who is to say those leaders have not been corrupted"? Who is to say they have? You have simply chosen to think the worst of them because it suits your own prejudices. Forget the nonsense history presented in too many popular books and consider what the Church really teaches, or has done.

You also mentioned apparent contradictions in the bible. Have you ever bothered to research the Church's own thoughts on the matter?

[Fsiphskilm]

[b]Volt's

[uc pseudonym]

I will simply tell you up front that I do not have the time to respond to the most recent round of points. If this discussion has not moved too far, I will do so at some point in the future.

[termyt]

Thank you for returning. We don’t burn folks at the stake, but I rather thought you would be a hit and run sort of poster. Returning shows you are at least committed to intellectual discourse.

Have I?

Love: warm attachment, enthusiasm, or devotion

Nowhere do I see love as being servitude. If love was servitude, it would not be love, it would be...well...servitude.

Servitude: a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life

We are all slaves to the people/things we love most. We devote our time and our money to promote them and make sure that they are taken care of. Liberty is an illusion. We have political liberty in this country in that we can choose those who rule over us, but it is a limited liberty. There are many things we are not free to do (and, in many cases, rightfully so). I am not particularly interested in the “warm attachmentâ€

[Nate]

Okay, one last post, and I'll probably have contributed all I can to this thread. You said:

It happens in the animal kingdom, isn't that enough proof that it is inherited through nature?

FALSE.

After praying mantises mate, the female rips off the male's head and eats it. This is a natural phenomena. However, if a woman were to rip off a man's head after sex and eat it, do you honestly think the jury would buy that it was a "natural" act and therefore had to be accepted? God, I would hope not.

The point is, animals have no conscious thought. They are incapable of knowing the difference between good and evil. They have no morals. Homosexuality IS a sin, and just because it occurs within creatures that cannot know the difference between right and wrong is not a valid argument.

For that matter, I could argue that rape, masturbation, pedophilia, incest, euthanasia, and even flat-out murder were all acceptable because they occur in the animal kingdom. Then what kind of society would this be? Certainly not one fit for living in. So your statement is flawed.

EDIT: One more point:

is it a blind man's fault that he is blind?

I'd like to thank Volt for bringing that point up.

As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

3 "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. - John 9:1-3

The same could be said of hermaphrodites

[Kat Walker]

See, this is where I cannot agree. Why use God's help? He gave you his own power to use, for yourself. The only way to become stronger is to use it on your own, not lean on a crutch. You misunderstand me when I spoke of corruption...we SHOULD rely on ourselves, but we shouldn't absolve ourselves of guilt and judgement. When hubris comes into play, you are neglecting a strength granted to you; that of perception. You become blind. As his children, I would think you should work together to show him you can survive on your own.

I think you are overlooking a few things with that train of thought. The Bible mentions numerous occasions where God Himself, either through His direct intervention or with His permission, will allow hardships to enter the lives of His followers. They often have a specific purpose that God is working towards, but tests of character and strength in general are vital to a new and struggling Christian's faith. This develops maturity and sincerity in one's beliefs. It is not to be considered a weakness that one calls on God for aid in times of trial, as God will always hold us accountable for our own paths, He expects it from us -- He simply gives us pushes in the right direction where He sees fit. These may often be for a purpose that we would have never dreamt of ourselves, therefore proving that while there is no need to undermine human potential, we also shouldn't put complete faith into humanity's inherently limited grasp on the "bigger picture".

I also think you're assuming that Christianity makes one weak due to the fact that we don't believe one can be righteous through total self-reliance. Since I don't know if you have a lot of experience in our position, I will be the first to tell you that being a Christian is neither easy nor fun, yet ultimately fufilling. It is a constant process of growth, learning, and strengthening amidst odds that would be insurmountable without the guidance of God Himself. To rely on Him is the last thing from seeking a "security blanket" or a "crutch". It is to take on an enormous burden. Far from using faith as an excuse to absolve self responsibility, we are called to uphold AND exercise the highest standards of personal morality, kindness, love, and to cheerfully help our fellow man. Including those who may hate, mock, oppress, or even try to kill us. To pray and know of God's love for us and others is our greatest motivation.

I hope you won't take this as a disrespectful question, but why believe in a God that you've implied is both indifferent and irrelevant in our lives? If God just wants to sit back and watch the show, how does one get to understand Him and find spiritual fulfillment in Him? IMHO, I think a God with a tangible relationship to His creation is more worthy of my adoration.

[Raiden no Kishi]

I'd like to make a minor note about the "telephone" example as applied to the Bible's meaning.

A God who is so weak that he cannot ensure that His Truth is kept intact through the ages is no God of mine. My God is omnipotent, and, having created humans, understands their flaws. In regards to the Bible, I believe God has kept it intact.

Rai the apologetically challenged

[uc pseudonym]

I should not have had time to respond, but it appears that I will. I’ll work through lunch and things should be fine…

That, and if God is all encompassing, you must realize that Satan is a part of God himself]

Actually, this reflects either a nonchristian or a flawed-christian worldview. the belief that God and Satan are eternally coexistant and independant (Yin and Yang, so to speak) is decidedly IndoEuropean and is not in any way reflected by what Christians generally hold to be true.

(Most) Christians are not pantheistic; they do not believe that the spirits of everything within the world collective forms God. God is not everything, though He does encompass everything (in this worldview, naturally), an important distinction. If all of reality would cease to exist, God would not in any way be reduced.

Your point in terms of one aspect being meaningless without the other is a good one, but I disagree in some slight ways. If God's will is the very essence of good, the definition of evil is whatever is not His will. This does not require anything to exist, it merely requires the possibility of a thing existing. For example, if God's will was everything that could possibly happen, yes, it and the term "good" would be meaningless.

That is why there is evil in the world: for good to have any meaning, there must be the possibility of evil. You cannot choose between only one option. Humanity being what it is, the worse option is commonly chosen. Taking Christians' source material at face value, Satan is only a created being that took the "evil" option in a very extreme manner.

A disease? Forgive me, but I cannot agree to that. Why is it not so easily curable? You might be able to overcome it through sheer willpower, but that doesn't change the fact that it is genetic. It is merely how your body and mind are programmed. It happens in the animal kingdom, isn't that enough proof that it is inherited through nature?

Why is it you see so many Christians, who truly hate the fact they are gay]

For my purposes, I will regard the willfulness of homosexuality as irrelevant. I only wish to make a supplementary point that is not a whole argument in itself.

Personally, speaking strictly from the id, I would rather not be Christian. It would be much easier to lie my way through life, cheat my way to perfect scores, and generally bash every person near me. These are the things that, if I was not bound by any sense of morality, I want to do.

Am I genetically predisposed toward these things? Perhaps, perhaps not. The issue of homosexuality is not one that has ever even vaguely concerned me personally, but I wonder if it would be any different. I would not presume to say, having not experienced it, but I think that you see my point.

Permit me to tangent. Our culture (referring to American culture, though it is spreading to the third world far too quickly) has developed a philosophy in which the gratification of personal desire is above all else. You want a Twinkie? Get a Twinkie. You want to go somewhere? Go somewhere. You want to have sex (het, hom, bi, whatever)? Have sex.

[If I am quoted out of context from that...]

Many people cannot comprehend the thought of not doing what you seem to want. To that end, I see many promoting the philosophy that whatever you want is intrinsically right. As a Christian, I cannot agree with this in any way. I am not saying that you do, but many arguments for homosexuality seem to operate from this premise.

Do I? God wasn't the one who stopped me from killing myself. God wasn't the one who made me stronger and self sufficient. God had nothing to do with anything really. He just sat back, smiled and watched as I got myself out of my own ruts. I would hardly consider that weak. I shall do the best with what I can. It's all I can do. ^_^

Not to belittle your experiences, but I would argue it is impossible to determine if a theoretical diety has anything to do with anything (outside of what is generally termed the miraculous). To say that because there is not fire in the sky that nothing is at work is, in my mind, inaccurate.

In order for God to be omnipotent and all encompassing, he cannot possess but one face.

I believe this was in general addressed earlier.

I never said we were equal, or greater than God.

In context, however, "the glory of God" is what is required of humans, not equality with God. Hence, with what is essentially perfection as the standard, all humans fail this standard.

Quite true, however I find it more plausable (knowing man) to believe it became corrupted rather than it remaining pure over time.

And similarly, I find it more plausible to believe that God would not allow such if He intended to speak with humanity at all. Hence, we can go no further and nothing has been proved.

Mmm...I don't know how to answer that. You have a point.

Thank you for having the intellectual honest to say this. It encourages me that perhaps information could actually be exchanged in this conversation, instead of merely thrown at one another.

However, pedophilia, genetic or not, is not between two consenting individuals. (No exceptions, they don't make the rule) One individual is forcing themselves on another. There is no mutual respect when it comes to both parties.

Instead of arguing this point extensively (you are correct in how they are different) I would point out that Christians believe that no scenario is without God as a party. Everything is His creation, and hence it always relates to Him. Even if both individuals consent, that does not mean that God is not “harmedâ€

[mastersquirrel]

In reply to your question about different upbringing, I'd have to say that I'm not sure. However, I can say that I haven't just blindly accepted all that's been said to me through the church.

I've questioned God and his methods, I've questioned a whole lot of things, (it seems to be a hobby of mine) but I've always arrived at the same idea. Now, truly, many of my considerations have been as to the theory of evolution (which I consider thoroughly flawed though I won't go into detail as it does not have anything to do with this) and not if the world is full of energy that can be altered.

I must say that I've heard what many people believe, I've gotten into discussions of beliefs with several people (mostly at my school). Saying that we're closed minded is quite wrong. I'm sure that many people here could give you examples of times when they doubted or questioned God, and I think that they'd be examples as to being open-minded.

Now as for the churches you've mentioned, all I can say is that every group or organization has their own demons (I don't mean that literally and I'm referring to those who didn't accept the people whose beliefs they didn't like). I can also safely say that it isn't my church. I'll bet my pastor would love to talk to you (he's a colorful character) and you wouldn't have to worry about being burned at the stake (trying to lighten the mood).

I'm not sure if I've helped, and I'm not the best at this sort of thing, but I hope that I've said at least one helpful thing. It's always good to consider questions like these, even if they're discomforting.