Wow...

[Kai Nobuyuki]

Forgive me if I put this in the wrong place!

You know I never actually knew how hard it is to try and convince someone that the Bible isn't false. I mean when I helped my friend come to Christ she asked the hard questions but she didn't doubt the Bible's truth. But when I was on Gaia Sunday evening I got into an agrument about Chruch. I felt like my soul was being ripped to shreds as this guy just degraded both me and my faith. I was thankful that there were other Christians there to help me out and calm me down I prayed seven times through that whole discussion. I just never realized how hard it really is to share your faith with non-believers.

[Shao Feng-Li]

I so know how it is. Even among the church itself I sometimes get that. Even my little sister tries to share the gospel, and gets degraded.

(Awsome name and sig pic Kai.)

[termyt]

You bet Kai, and I am pleased that you are out there trying. Take heart and do not be discouraged. Those whose hearts are closed to the truth will not be able to find it no matter how you lead. Degradation is only an effective weapon if you allow it to be. Understand that few debates end in one side being converted to the other. Instead, debates are primarily tools that can be used to spread the truth so that those who are searching can find it (Often these are the spectators in the debate, not the participants). In every debate, speak with authority and do not become discouraged. Do not allow personal attacks derail the message. Know what you believe and allow your faith to grow so that it can carry you. Then you will be the beacon in the night, drawing those who are searching into the light of the truth.

[ShiroiHikari]

termyt is right, some people's hearts are just closed and there's really nothing you can do except plant the seed and pray. but it's good that you have the courage to stand up for what you believe in to those people on Gaia...I've been there and some of them are very vicious.

keep fighting the good fight.

[Kristal*Klear]

ah, I know from experiece these perils. I have tried to vwitness to many friends, as well as people over the internet and boy do I get slammed, just remember tyhat the word of God NEVER goes out in vain, you planted the seed,a dn when the time is right, The Holy Spirit will make it grow. Remember thatwhen you share your faith, you will be persecuted, because unfortunatley, this is Satans world...... and he will do all he can to stop us from sharing the good news. Be strong and of good courage my friend!!!! keep sharing!!

[GhostontheNet]

My friend, are you familiar with apologetics (the defense of the faith)? If not, I believe you should be, for our standing orders are to "in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you;" (1 Peter 3:15 ESV) The Greek for "defense" provides more of the context of what it is that we are being asked to do,

ἀπολογία
apologia
Thayer Definition:
1) verbal defence, speech in defence
2) a reasoned statement or argument

I will admit there is a vast amount of literature out there attempting to disprove the truth of Christianity, but there is likewise also much out there to provide evidence for its truth and also to rebut the arguments of the first group within your grasp. This is not to say that I devalue the teaching of scripture to unbelievers or that we shouldn't pray for their salvation, merely to note that I don't think it scriptural to hang around getting pwned in debate, making Christianity look like a religion of being in denial, an intellectual cesspool, and that we truly do "follow cleverly devised myths" (2 Peter 1:16 ESV). Though few debates end with conversions, there are those who convert because extended study convinces them of the truth of Christianity, (besides myself as an example, RightIdea of Theology Web who owns the ironically titled site "GodisNowhere" at http://godisnowhere.org which isn't actually atheist but rather Christian and Lee Stroebel come to mind as examples off the top of my head). I strongly suspect you took a beating because you were unprepared for the engagement; please try to be ever ready to give a defense for the reason for the hope within you in the future. My recomendation is that you learn the logical fallacies and point them out if you spot them http://www.tektonics.org/fallacies.html , and begin research of apologetics (if you hadn't already) with Lee Stroebel's books, Glenn Miller's Christian Thinktank http://www.christian-thinktank.org , J.P. Holding's Tektonics Ministries http://www.tektonics.org and my acquantance Kyle's The Skeptical Christian http://www.skepticalchristian.com as a start.

[Zane]

The Ghost has it, (C.S. Lewis is another such person who was convined by the evidence that Christ lives.) in the end if you're prepared for a confrontation thats great. But even if you tell people that the documents of Jesus's life are the best preserved pieces of paper in all of history, it comes down to whoever you are talking to, to accept your word for it.

Many people will say; "thats just your opion" and things like that, and they will ahve to live with it. The Gospel is offencive, not many people want to hear that they a wrong, sinful, and in need for forgivness. So they will come up with anykind of excuse to get away with their beliefs intact.
Romans 3; 10-12 says "there is no-one righteous, not even one, there is no-one who understands, no-one who seeks God, all have turned away".
And that is really true, thats why heaps of people will run with evolution to try and get away from God by showing that he isn't needed. Thats why its really popular. Also in Philosophy, there are lots of atheists doing that to build up their defense against the existnece of God,... although many 'know' that there is a God, they just don't want to relate to him and face the consequences.

Its tough, but if you can tell them that, Jesus died for their sins, and loves them, God will take that seed and use it in time, the Holy Spirit will also do his part of nudging and promting. Its only because of Gods mercy that we became christians, realized that we're sinful and in need of him.

Do your Best and let God do the Rest. Read Ghosts sites their're good.

[GhostontheNet]

The Ghost has it, (C.S. Lewis is another such person who was convined by the evidence that Christ lives.) in the end if you're prepared for a confrontation thats great. But even if you tell people that the documents of Jesus's life are the best preserved pieces of paper in all of history, it comes down to whoever you are talking to, to accept your word for it... Read Ghosts sites their're good.

Thank you. Though I should first note that I think the apologetic that is truly the best is not the superb preservation of the Bible (for there can be a such thing as a well preserved text that isn't true) but that of the argument for the bodily resurrection of Christ, one would do well to research much about this and make their best case for it, as it is a strong one and always amplifiable in indirect ways (i.e. I've been working on a paper that should appear at The Skeptical Christian that argues for the fulfillment of Christ's prophecies, which would serve as evidence that He has in fact risen and that He reigns on high if my argument is sucessful). A good tactic would also to know whence a claim comes from rather than doing the equivalent of what appears to be pulling a rabbit out of a hat to some. To use the formerly noted work in progress as an example, I could say in a conversation about accusations of prophecy after the fact that all the New Testament was completed before A.D. 70 when Jerusalem fell, but this would do little good without noting the work of John A.T. Robinson titled Redating the New Testament or being ready to employ some of his better arguments for that dating. I think the best thing is to choose a tactic (or rather let the Holy Spirit choose one) rather than spouting random apologetic. Take for example Acts 17:16-34 where while in Athens Paul is approached by Stoic and Epicurean philosophers and is given a chance to speak of The Way. Obviously, this would be an enormous opportunity for Christ, but the question would arise of what he would say at this time. The answer of course is that he begins with them on their own level, noting with the inscription on an altar stating that it was "To the unknown god", he then went on to declare that this God is YHWH and giving a summary of who He is and who He isn't, what He has done, what He is doing, and what He will do. The mention the resurrection of the dead is the last thing mentioned, and though some of the philosophers merely scoff, others go on to here him through later, yeilding Christ fruit.

[Kai Nobuyuki]

My friend, are you familiar with apologetics (the defense of the faith)? If not, I believe you should be, for our standing orders are to "in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, [B]always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you]" (1 Peter 3:15 ESV) The Greek for "defense" provides more of the context of what it is that we are being asked to do,

ἀπολογία
apologia
Thayer Definition:
1) verbal defence, speech in defence
2) a reasoned statement or argument

I will admit there is a vast amount of literature out there attempting to disprove the truth of Christianity, but there is likewise also much out there to provide evidence for its truth and also to rebut the arguments of the first group within your grasp. This is not to say that I devalue the teaching of scripture to unbelievers or that we shouldn't pray for their salvation, merely to note that I don't think it scriptural to hang around getting pwned in debate, making Christianity look like a religion of being in denial, an intellectual cesspool, and that we truly do "follow cleverly devised myths" (2 Peter 1:16 ESV). Though few debates end with conversions, there are those who convert because extended study convinces them of the truth of Christianity, (besides myself as an example, RightIdea of Theology Web who owns the ironically titled site "GodisNowhere" at http://godisnowhere.org which isn't actually atheist but rather Christian and Lee Stroebel come to mind as examples off the top of my head). I strongly suspect you took a beating because you were unprepared for the engagement; please try to be ever ready to give a defense for the reason for the hope within you in the future. My recomendation is that you learn the logical fallacies and point them out if you spot them http://www.tektonics.org/fallacies.html , and begin research of apologetics (if you hadn't already) with Lee Stroebel's books, Glenn Miller's Christian Thinktank http://www.christian-thinktank.org , J.P. Holding's Tektonics Ministries http://www.tektonics.org and my acquantance Kyle's The Skeptical Christian http://www.skepticalchristian.com as a start.

Yes I am quite familiar with that and especially that verse. I was going to the book store when I started defending my faith but I we couldn't get there because there was an accident I will look at the books/websites that you have all given me so I can better prepare myself for something like this happening again. ^^

[GhostontheNet]

Yes I am quite familiar with that and especially that verse. I was going to the book store when I started defending my faith but I we couldn't get there because there was an accident I will look at the books/websites that you have all given me so I can better prepare myself for something like this happening again. ^^

Umm, first of all I'm having trouble getting your story straight in my mind so I will ask if I have it right;

Characters:

Non-Christian:
1. Girl with the hard questions (now a Christian?)
2. Guy with harsh polemic against you and your faith, the Bible, and Christianity (pagan?)

Christian:
1. You
2. Christian friends to help calm you down.

Events in order:
1. Interrogated with the hard questions by your friend whom is nevertheless open minded.
2. Handed a harsh verbal beating by an insolent guy with emotional havok.

Wild card event:
Trip to the bookstore:Was it that you were on your way to there when engaged in dialogue with non-Christian #1 or #2, or that you were planning on buying books on how to defend the faith at some point but were prevented by an auto-accident?

I thank you for taking my suggestions, though I should note that I think what I gave you is not an end-all apologetics arsenal, but rather a good entryway into the pursuit. Oh, and let my add that I don't reccomend every book by Stroebel for apologetics (because some of it isn't), but only his "Case For X" (x being a variable) series.

Edit: Kudos to Zane for the P.M.

[Kai Nobuyuki]

[quote="GhostontheNet"]Umm, first of all I'm having trouble getting your story straight in my mind so I will ask if I have it right]

It was a guy and I didn't want something that is an end-all but just something to prepare me just so I know what to do, to help me out.

[Zarn Ishtare]

For the defense of the Christian Faith, the greatest Apologetic of our time would truly be C.S. Lewis. While some of his arguements are outdated (meaning their no longer a subject for debate, not that they were bad) 99 percent of his works can still be applied today. Mere Christianity, The Joyful Christian, The Problem of Pain, A Grief Observed, and many other titles are excellent for this subject. I myself am studying apologetics informally, and I've found Lewis to be my main source for most of my theological arguements.

[GhostontheNet]

It was a guy and I didn't want something that is an end-all but just something to prepare me just so I know what to do, to help me out.

Ah, "she" was an error in typing. Zarn Ishtare has a point on C.S. Lewis, though I don't recommend works I haven't read, I will note that Lewis has quite a reputation in apologetics. I didn't think that you thought that they would be end all per se, but I had once seen a reviewer of The Case for Christ acting like it was the end all in apologetics and that it was a demonstration of the lameness of all Christian arguments (not true on all accounts), I therefore generally use cautionary notes in fear of someone getting such an idea into their heads.

[Fsiphskilm]

that's why you DON"T try to

[Zane]

Don't try to convert others, that's my advice. I know you want to, but maybe you're not ready yet...

What would you suggest Kristian?
Live a godly life and have an anwser ready when they ask for one? I would have thought that once aware of the great news you'd want to go tell your friends and relatives about what Christ has done for us. Not sit back and watch them waste their lives away never knowing Gods love. Becaus they won't find his love by just living how they want unless God 'wakes them up', or someone tells them about it.
Romans 3:11-12 'there is no-one who understands, no-one who seeks God'
So yeah, don't try and 'convert' people, but tell them about Jesus love and sacrifice for them, for sure, right?

[Swordguy]

Matt 10
19But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Do not try to argue with men by mens wisdom for that will get you in a stale mate but instead let God talk thru you.

James 1
5If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

but also remember that one will not convert on the first shot but God works useing one to plant and another to sow, Be open to His will when you confont people and know that God is your shield and and sword.

Matt 4
36Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now he harvests the crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together. 37Thus the saying 'One sows and another reaps' is true. 38I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor.

When in these situations trust God and let Him wrok thru you....don't try and go in on your own power, and have faith that God will be there when you need Him.

[Fsiphskilm]

[quote="Zane"]What w

[GhostontheNet]

Volt: I think Paul disagrees with you;

[19]I hope in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you soon, so that I too may be cheered by news of you. [20]For I have no one like him, who will be genuinely concerned for your welfare. [21]They all seek their own interests, not those of Jesus Christ. [22]But you know Timothy's proven worth, how as a son[Greek: child] with a father he has served with me in the gospel. [23]I hope therefore to send him just as soon as I see how it will go with me, [24]and I trust in the Lord that shortly I myself will come also. (Philippians 2:19-24 ESV)

A look at Paul's epistles and Acts reveal Timothy is very often with Paul. Although a young person may not be ready to do these things, there are obviously those that are, and the apostle launches no such criticism against his comrade for his youth, but is all for what he is doing.

Swordguy: Tell me if I'm wrong but is not that saying in context both a persecution saying and also an eschatological one?

[17] Beware of men, for they will deliver you over to courts and flog you in their synagogues, [18] and you will be dragged before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them and the Gentiles. [19] When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. [20] For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. [21] Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death, [22] and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. [23] When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. (Matthew 10:17-23 ESV, compare with Matthew 24, especially verse 34)

That is, although persecution will arise, they need not worry about their defenses when their lives are at stake while standing before the pagan rulers. A reply to my scriptural defense of apologetics would be nice (not to mention the experience of myself and others in regards to the usefulness of it, after all, without this your arguments are compromised from the get go), but I will not hold my breath. Take for example the 23rd verse of the previous cite. If I, like some skeptics I've encountered were to combine it with Matthew 24:34 and other passages to argue that Christ was a false prophet (and therefore according to the Law not sent by YHWH) because His second coming did not occur when they allege that it was to occur, how would you reply? This was the main motivation for why I've written an in depth anylasis of the texts these passages belong to, which now that its completed spans 67 pages. I do not say that one should not rely upon the Holy Spirit on such matters but that He doesn't do everything. After all, is it that your religious leaders at your church suddenly recieve complete revelation on how to do their jobs effectively, or do they go to seminary to learn about it?

[Jeikobu]

I say good for you for witnessing. I know it can be hard, I have been talking to some people on MSN messenger lately who are lost on faith. And I even talked to my mom about it today for help (my parents are strong Christians). She told me that each person, sometime in his or her life, is confronted with the choice, whether he/she will accept the Lord or not. Each person is given a clear choice at some point. But when you witness to others, you never know what seeds you're planting. And even if the person never accepts the Lord, you tried, and you pleased God by serving Him. Never give up!

[Zane]

Thanks Ghost... (and you might want to put in a couple of breaks in between your text, kinda tough to read, for me anyway), I agree with you b.t.w., whats your reply gonna be swordguy? Thanks Volt for clearing that up. Hey, welcome Jeikobu, i agree with you aswell.

Obviously young Christian don't have the same knowledge as old hats do, or expirence for that matter in handeling tough conversations etc. But should we not contiune to share with our family/friends, and let God use what we've done (to the best of our current ability).
Like the old rhyme; "Do your best and let God do the rest"?

Everyones going to stuff up and say things which they can not back up accidently, we're not perfect, but i think it is better to have tryed and failed, then never to have tryed at all. Sure; pick your 'fights' carefully, don't 'take on' an 50 year old athiest philosophy lecturer as an infant. But most people are just ignorant of the gospel and have not heard it correctly, thats all... agree?

[By the way, I think this a good healthy discussion we have going here, thanks everyone for your contibutions.]

[uc pseudonym]

I would also like to thank everyone for having a discussion in which people do not necessarily disagree but haven't begun to argue in a vicious way. Provided we avoid denominational matters, CAA is in full support of this, and it is nice to see such a thing work out for once.

As to the actual topic, I believe that a great deal of good has already been said in a number of different senses. Allow me to add one thing: however you work your apologetics, do so humbly.

This brings to mind a (true) story, about a young man in college. He attended a lecture in which a speaker brilliantly defended Christianity. During the question time, however, a student stood up and asked a question that absolutely floored the young man. He thought there was no way that the speaker could answer the question, and it was actually starting to make him wonder about his faith.

To his surprise, the speaker easily fielded the question. He worked through the logic of it, slowly boxed him into a corner and in the end left his question in no more than logical shambles. The young man was greatly encouraged, and left the lecture in a good mood.

But after the debate lies the true point of the story: the young man happened to be walking near the student who had asked the question and was now speaking with another student. What he said was this: "Well, he might be right, but I still hate his d*** guts."

That stuck with the young man (whose name I unfortunately cannot remember), and it stuck with me as well. In terms of Christian debate, the point is not to win, but to help your opponent find the truth.

[GhostontheNet]

I would also like to thank everyone for having a discussion in which people do not necessarily disagree but haven't begun to argue in a vicious way. Provided we avoid denominational matters, CAA is in full support of this, and it is nice to see such a thing work out for once.

I'll try my best. I will also note that I've seen apologists of all denominations, so I doubt it will be a problem.

As to the actual topic, I believe that a great deal of good has already been said in a number of different senses. Allow me to add one thing: however you work your apologetics, do so humbly.

This brings to mind a (true) story, about a young man in college. He attended a lecture in which a speaker brilliantly defended Christianity. During the question time, however, a student stood up and asked a question that absolutely floored the young man. He thought there was no way that the speaker could answer the question, and it was actually starting to make him wonder about his faith.

To his surprise, the speaker easily fielded the question. He worked through the logic of it, slowly boxed him into a corner and in the end left his question in no more than logical shambles. The young man was greatly encouraged, and left the lecture in a good mood.

But after the debate lies the true point of the story: the young man happened to be walking near the student who had asked the question and was now speaking with another student. What he said was this: "Well, he might be right, but I still hate his d*** guts."

That stuck with the young man (whose name I unfortunately cannot remember), and it stuck with me as well. In terms of Christian debate, the point is not to win, but to help your opponent find the truth.

Agreed. Also, I like the story.

[Fsiphskilm]

[quote="GhostontheNet"]Volt: I think Paul disagrees

[GhostontheNet]

My apologies for misunderstanding what you were saying, it seemed that you were employing the other side of the coin (old and spiritually young) but not actually changing your original opinion in the least. Also, my qualifier was "effectively", this was because I alluded to the manifold demands needed for being a pastor, not arguing that they shouldn't be inspired in all they do. To use the Gospels as an example, the twelve were in training for 3 and a half years before the resurrection, and after rising from the dead He was "appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God." (Acts 1:3 ESV) Were this not useful information, it is concievable that immediately after sufficiently proving the resurrection to them, He would simply ascend to heaven, and then and they would recieve all the information they needed for their long task to be "my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and to the end of the earth" (Acts 1:8 ESV) from the Holy Spirit.

[Fsiphskilm]

it's all good.

[GhostontheNet]

it's all good.

I get misunderstood a lot. It's because my mind is like this on the inside...[Galactic madness]
so much going on!

I can relate, also, I suppose one misunderstanding deserves another.