Is Dungeons and Dragons evil?

[AsterlonKnight]

My opinion: No, D&D is not evil. Would I let a child play? No for the reason that younger children are less likely to understand the difference between fantasy and reality. And that's what gives the game its bad rep. People who don't know the difference between fantasy and reality and people who may or may not know the difference and get so involved that the lines blur. They got so wrapped up that they forgot it's just a game and not real. D&D is the same as a video game only you have to add up stats etc yourself and you get to decide how the story goes. Many of the character classes and races are found in most Adventure/RP vid games like GS. As far as the multiple deities included in the game, it's fantasy. And most fantasy lands aren't like this one. But the neat thing about D&D and games like it is that you can create your own worlds with whatever races/deities you want. So if you want to create a Christain themed world, you can. That would still work with all the different classes, too. Paladins especially. Though Paladins irritate me, they don't take things into context. <_< Everything's black or white, no grey area.

[EireWolf]

[quote="cbwing0"]To use a favorite phrase of the late Rev.Walter Martin, this is what you might call "playing Holy Spirit" for someone else. That is, taking something that is a matter of conscience and personal conviction, and claiming that it is universally wrong. This is not something that we are to do.

Although more legalistic Christians would not like to admit it, the Bible is clear that in almost every area of dispute, it is the more lenient practice that is technically correct]

That's more or less what I wanted to say. I might add that we should be careful not to "cause a brother to stumble" by taking advantage of our freedom in Christ. For example, if a friend from church thought RPGing was wrong, I wouldn't invite her to a game night, and I wouldn't talk about it around her. I'd probably mention that I don't feel convicted about it, and leave it at that.

When I was younger, my mom found out that my cousin played D&D and she was worried about it, and told her brother (my cousin's dad) that D&D is evil. I think she'd heard something like that at church. I remember wondering how a game could be evil... but I think if enough Christians start saying something is evil, some other Christians will assume it must be evil, and it snowballs. It's kinda' sad; Christians seem to have a reputation (in America at least) for rabid propaganda about things like D&D, Harry Potter, etc., when it's really just a vocal minority that thinks that way.

[Jasdero]

I loved that.
ooo... Now I know where Technomancer's avatar is from.

I haven't played Dungeons and Dragons, so.....

[skynes]

But the neat thing about D&D and games like it is that you can create your own worlds with whatever races/deities you want.

I did read the magic/religion area of the D&D rulebook once. I remember it saying that the system they have is polytheistic, but if the GM/players want a monotheistic world it can be done, then they provide a system on how to get that to work!

[Technomancer]

I did read the magic/religion area of the D&D rulebook once. I remember it saying that the system they have is polytheistic, but if the GM/players want a monotheistic world it can be done, then they provide a system on how to get that to work!

You can certainly do it, but other systems might be easier to adapt. D&D has the problem that so much of its cosmology is embedded in the game mechanics itself. It's still do-able, but requires a bit more thought and effort.

[skynes]

It's worth doing though. D&D cud be useful if done in a Christian way I know http://www.geocities.com/christian_gamers_guild/ these guys do that.

[Yojimbo]

You can certainly do it, but other systems might be easier to adapt. D&D has the problem that so much of its cosmology is embedded in the game mechanics itself. It's still do-able, but requires a bit more thought and effort.

Yes for example some choices for professions are that you can be a Cleric of the god Helm or a Priest of Telos. I've never played the actual pen and paper D&D though I'm just a big fan of the PC Games like Baldur's Gate and Greyhawk.

[uc pseudonym]

It is interesting that this topic should come up just prior to this playing a role in my own life.

Of one group of peers I spend time with, the worldview is predominantly humanistic atheist. There are two Christians among us, myself and another person for whom this matters. All of us are interested in rpgs in some respect, and it is not out of the ordinary for us to play together. By large, this other Christian is not respected by the others as a Christian. That is, they think he is a hypocrite who claims beliefs without following them.

But after an experience (it is currently an unknown quantity: I wasn't there and I have no information baout it) he felt convicted. Upon returning home he got rid of all his books and ripped up all his character sheets (probably 100+ hours of work; he had a lot). The others by large think this is ridiculous, but they did comment that it was the first sign he had shown of actually trying to follow his belief system.

All of this puts me in a strange position that has yet to be resolved. I merely stated it here because it applied, not necessarily because I am asking for advice.

[cbwing0]

All of this puts me in a strange position that has yet to be resolved. I merely stated it here because it applied, not necessarily because I am asking for advice.

That is an interesting situation; and evening if you aren't looking for advice, I hope that you won't mind me commenting on it .

The people in this case seem to have a mistaken view of Christian beliefs. If they were to challenge you on the point, then it would be right to correct them, informing them that D&D is not, in fact, wrong according to Christianity. You might also explain to them the role of conscience, the Holy Spirit, and personal conviction (if you think that they would understand).

In short, it is not your fault that your friends have mistaken beliefs about Christianity; however, to avoid compromising your ability to witness to them, it might be necessary to explain to them why it is permissible for you to play D&D.

Or maybe you will feel convicted and stop playing altogether . If that is the case, then you could explain to them that Christianity is big enough to allow for both positions, depending on one's convictions.

[uc pseudonym]

That is an interesting situation]

You (and any others) are certainly free to do so. I will, however, comment on your commentary.

The people in this case seem to have a mistaken view of Christian beliefs. If they were to challenge you on the point, then it would be right to correct them, informing them that D&D is not, in fact, wrong according to Christianity. You might also explain to them the role of conscience, the Holy Spirit, and personal conviction (if you think that they would understand).

I would very much like to challenge him in this case. Not so much because I wish to prove him wrong, but because I see a large problem very probable in the future. The friend in question does not have a great degree of self control, and I (as well as the rest of the group) have given him a little over two weeks before he returns to gaming.

This would, obviously, make him feel guilty and appear badly in the eyes of others. If possible, I would like to spare him this. However, I have not found a way to approach the topic in a humble and socially acceptable manner.

As for my other friends, I've already spoken with them and they understand. I will not mention personal conviction, because in their company it would accomplish little, but they understand my position and respect it (even if they disagree).

Or maybe you will feel convicted and stop playing altogether . If that is the case, then you could explain to them that Christianity is big enough to allow for both positions, depending on one's convictions.

Indeed. It is unlikely that a change of my position would take place (it was developed slowly and with a great deal of study), but if it would do so, I would be very interested in their reactions.

[Fsiphskilm]

[quote="Linksque

[cbwing0]

-credit cards (OH MY GOD!!!! THEY replace money! The end is near!)

It's a little more complex than that. Their rationale comes from Romans 13:8: "Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law." There is a certain sense in which using a credit card puts you in debt to the credit card company (until you pay your bill), and this is why some Christians will not use credit cards.

Of course I do not find this line of reasoning compelling, but it is not as easily dismissed as you might think.

[madphilb]

It's a little more complex than that. Their rationale comes from Romans 13:8: "Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law." There is a certain sense in which using a credit card puts you in debt to the credit card company (until you pay your bill), and this is why some Christians will not use credit cards.

I believe there are also those who point to more apcolyptic verses referring to the mark of the beast and the whole "End Times" thing..... least I've known those types as well.


Along with this comes 2 things that drive most of the D&D = Evil thing within Christian circles (along with most other items like it).

1) Personal Opinion / Initial Reaction - These are driven by personal convictions and belief, and while they aren't wrong, often Chritians tend to project their Opinions/Convictions onto others and don't seem to understand that what they feel isn't what everyone else believes. Even when truth is presented which overrides their belief, even if they make a decision that the feeling doesn't quite match fact, it often doesn't change the feeling deep down.

2) Ignorance / Propogated Ignorance - A while back an (ex-)friend of mine forwarded to me an article on Pokemon, how it was the evilist thing (this being at the time when Pokemon was "the" thing, you remember, kids stabbing each other over cards and such). The woman who forwarded it to me had cleared her house of Pokemon and forbid her children to have anything to do with it (her son being just to High-School age I believe at the time, maybe a little younger). She took the article as Gospel, never checking the author nor facts in it.

I on the other hand had seen a Pokemon esp. or two, and the article didn't quite sit right (in fact it reminded me of articles written about D&D years ago durring it's hey-day). I set the VCR to tape both showings of the repeats each day and started watching, I also checked into some of his "research" and aside from getting sucked into a great Anime (hold your flames please ), I found much of the information in the article to be twisted to fit his argument, exagerated, or way more was read into innocent things written by the WB's translators (making Ash and Misty's relationship sound like some hot roll in the hay). On top of all that I checked out the author's web site and found that the only thing missing from his "ultraconservitive fundamentalist" views was the "Rock and Roll is Evil" slant.... amongst the evil things in this world was Promis Keepers because they encourage reaching out and ministering to Gay men and allow Catholics to be part of the services.


The Word talks about us being as Wise as Serpents and as innocent as Doves.... yet it seems that Christians often take on the attribues of Wolves and not very smart ones at that

Ok.... anyone else want the soapbox for a bit? I've got to move my truck before Jeanne drops a tree on it

[Mr. SmartyPants]

do ya think all games or movies with demons are bad?

[Ashley]

A friendly reminder here--though things have been civil thus far (for the most part at least) please keep your opinions courteous and such. Take it too far or get too uptight and this thread will be closed.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

will do

[skynes]

I think D&D is bad, i think the makers took it a little to the extreme with the demonsand stuff

I'm not certain on it, but In the monsters bestiary and rules the author made it clear that it is not necessary to use everything in there. You don't HAVE to use magic or HAVE to use demons as enemies. There are optional.

D&D could both be used as a heavily occult ridden game, or as a magic-less demon-less hack n slash. It all depends really on the GM and what they want to do with it.

[uc pseudonym]

Regarding credit cards: I feel that most people who refuse to use them do so on the basis of the book of Revelation (a view that I do not approve of). However, given how easily they allow debts and the like to be accumulated, I must at times wonder if we would be better off without them. Pragmatically, not religiously, though money is certainly a religious issue.

But to be on topic: D&D is a user-created world, and hence it is very difficult to judge it. I more or less agree with what has been posted by others and myself; it will be what you and the GM make of it.

[Fsiphskilm]

<--------

[skynes]

It's so saddening that Christian's will resort to deceit, deception and outright lying to get people to believe what they say, yet they say they're speaking "God's Truth". Very sad...

[Mr. SmartyPants]

to add to that, also using scripture to support them when the scripture actually refers to someting else

[kaji]

It's a little more complex than that. Their rationale comes from Romans 13:8: "Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law." There is a certain sense in which using a credit card puts you in debt to the credit card company (until you pay your bill), and this is why some Christians will not use credit cards.

Of course I do not find this line of reasoning compelling, but it is not as easily dismissed as you might think.

While I think what you are saying about CC's is true, I would like to point out that CC are designed to put people in to debt. Only when their card holders maintain a balance (or debt) on their card, do the CC companies really make a profit.

CC Companys know this and encourage people to spend more then they would normaly be able, with the idea that you will not have to pay for it all at once. While you make your min payments, the CC company is killing your wallet with interest fees.

I have never maintained a ballance on any of my cards, I only buy things with them to build up my credit, but if I were to have a problem with CC's, that would be it.
(The encourageing of people to put them selves into debt and then making money off of them.)

-kaji

[Shinja]

i dont like useing credit, and oinly use it for emergencys, and online purchases

[Kaligraphic]

Are dungeons and dragons evil?

Well, dungeons are basically used for storage. (the old bit about keeping people in dungeons was factually incorrect. Dungeons were typically used to store stuff like food that should be kept cool.) So, unless my refrigerator is also evil (possible but unlikely), I'd say that dungeons are probably okay.


Dragons (komodo dragons) are rather large reptiles that live near Indonesia, particularly on Komodo Island, for which they are named. They eat animals up to small deer, and occasionally eat one another. Some people think they are ugly, but I personally rather like their looks. Verdict: aside from the cannibalism, pretty much not evil.

So there you have it.
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Okay, actually, I think that cbwing0 and eirewolf have pretty much given about the same position as I would, so I commend to you their posts on the subject. Liberty constrained by love.
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"Let no debt remain outstanding" doesn't mean never incur debt. It just means that you should repay any debt you incur.

Basically, it's just saying not to stop paying your bills simply because you've become a Christian.

Credit cards are convenient to pay with, but you just have to remember that when you buy with a credit card, you're not actually paying for the thing: you're agreeing to pay a bit more later. As long as you don't start thinking that when you pay by credit the thing's paid for, you'll be fine. They're not evil, they're just little pieces of plastic. You simply have to weigh the practicality of the matter. (all things are lawful for me but not all things are profitable/helpful) - note the use of profitable - just be sure that you want to pay those extra dollars to buy the thing now. (add in the credit card overhead and see if the convenience is worth it - it may well be, it may well not be, but you'll know.)

A lot of what some people read in the NT as commandment is simply sound advice. For instance, it is not commanded that we, say, speak to one another in hymns and spiritual songs. However, when you think about it, that's not a bad idea. In fact, as long as you don't go overboard with it, it's a pretty good idea. But it's not a command.

[Fsiphskilm]

[quote="kaji"]Whi

[cbwing0]

Talk about getting lost in the example...you guys are too funny .

When I mentioned credit cards, I was not trying to start a debate about them. They were merely an example for my larger point that we shouldn't be so dismissive about the opinions of others.

I'm glad that you are having a good, civil discussion, but it has gone way off-topic.

[madphilb]

MadPlil------------------------------------>
You've got mad skills. I liked your post because I was one of thsoe people.

Thanks Volt... I tend to be a bit of a skeptic, and I can be pretty even handed about it too... got that from my Mom.

My friend, like quite a few people it seems, isn't as involved in the details of what interests her kids... mostly out of a "I just don't get it" attitude. Most don't want to "get it" either for some reason.

And it's not just Christians either, there was a story a while back... featuring some artist (Eminem I think) where the reporters where playing some of the music that the artist was singing at the concerts where the parents where just dumping t here kids off at the front gate. Many of the parents had no idea what was being sung, and most didn't care either, even when presented with very adult lyrics.

Me on the other hand, dispite being in my late 20's or so at the time (right at 30 maybe?), I'm just a big kid, watching "cartoons" is what I would do when I got home from working midnight shift at 7-11. Granted I thought it looked dorky before I started watching it.

But this isn't about Pokemon is it?

[EireWolf]

Are dungeons and dragons evil?

Well, dungeons are basically used for storage. (the old bit about keeping people in dungeons was factually incorrect. Dungeons were typically used to store stuff like food that should be kept cool.) So, unless my refrigerator is also evil (possible but unlikely), I'd say that dungeons are probably okay.

Dragons (komodo dragons) are rather large reptiles that live near Indonesia, particularly on Komodo Island, for which they are named. They eat animals up to small deer, and occasionally eat one another. Some people think they are ugly, but I personally rather like their looks. Verdict: aside from the cannibalism, pretty much not evil.

So there you have it.
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[greyscale42]

I at this moment take no stance on the game. I am tired of viewing sites than praise it to the heavens and sites that condemn it to hell. What I wanna do is get a hold of the rulebook(s), read it, pray over it, and let God tell me what the deal is and give me my own convictions on it.

Thank You
First off, as a person that plays D&D I regularly see people who just condemn it before they even experience it. Thanks alot for atleast trying to have a look at it.

My Experiences
Second, At first I was in doubt myself until I started playing with a group that, among others, contains an entire family( A mother, a father, a son, and a daughter) all of whom, except for the daughter are christians. They convinced me to come in and play once after having a serious talk about it and Ive been hooked ever since .

Concerns
The biggest concern Ive heard about it is that some think it will lead to witchcraft. I was worried about spell casting until I played and discovered spell consisted of "I would like to cast fireball."

The other concern Ive heard is that it can be addicting. My solution to this , as far as experience tells me, is play with alot of people. Trust me, Its very hard to meet with everyone at one time. Another solution is limit your play. Play only once a week or once every other week and if something else comes up then go to it instead.

[quote="Destroyer2000"] There was a report on the news quite a while back about some teenagers who got drunk, went into the desert with weapons, and fought and killed each other, because they thought they were D&D characters. Becoming like them is what the problem is, but otherwise it is fine. I enjoy D&D quite a bit, actually. It is an RPG]
WOAH
I can definitely see why someone would be concerned after hearing that but my personal opinion would be that that would be a case of alcohol abuse rather than a problem with D&D. However, I could see how obbsession with the game was a factor.

Thats all I really have to say in the matter.

[Shattered Dream]

This topic is almost as pointless as having william hung as your wedding singer. -_-