Halloween?

[cbwing0]

I don't have a problem with Haloween; and I celebrated it as a child/adolescent. Without starting a debate, let me just say that I find that the arguments against celebrating Haloween are not at all convincing. If anyone wants to discuss that, feel free to PM me.

I haven't dressed up in a number of years, although I do like horror movies. I also like candy, but I can get that year-round (and believe me, I do ). As for costumes, I might dress up if I was invited to a Haloween party. My opinion of cosplay is that it is incredibly lame, but that is another subject for another day.

My church used to have a Haloween party, complete with costumes, "scary" games, and candy. Now we just have a fall festival about the same time as Haloween. This is not due to changing doctrine, since we always had the fall festival separete from Haloween, but now that is all we do at that time of year.

Edit (update):
I read through the links that you provided, Archan, and I have to say that they are not anymore convincing that any other argument against participating in Haloween that I have ever read.

Can anyone tell me how I can adjust the time limit to when my account decides to log itself out? I'm, getting annoyed writing these extensive reponses only to click send and recieve, "Sorry, you were logged out automatically, please log back in so you can re-rite everything over and over again.........

[color=black]Do you use the automatic login feature? With that, you never have to enter your username/password when you visit the site. Whenever you visit the site, you will automatically be logged in and ready to post. If you don't use it, I would encourage it for a number of reasons:

1.It would probably solve the login timeout problem.
2.It makes posting a lot easier.

As long as no one else in your house is using your computer to login to the CAA, there shouldn't be a problem with privacy/multiple screen names.

It is also a good idea to make long posts in a word processing program (such as Misrosoft Word), saving often. This way you won't lose your work if there is a problem with logging in, bad internet connections, etc. Failing that, just copy everything you post periodically, so that you can just paste it back if there is a problem.
[/color]

[Archan]

cbwing-

Eh, the login thing doesn't work to well for me being I'm constantly jumping from computer to computer......most of the time from my college, so yeah, wouldn't work too well. also, I do the word thing all the time, it just gets anoying and when I'm usually in deep thought, it's the last thing on my mind. It's just a little inconvinience for me, but eh, whats a person to do. Oh well. Anyone else when any suggestions?

Anyways not to wonder too far off topic, I'll jump back into halloween. I minaly posted both biased and secular views of Halloween so poeple could compare the simularities, those being the main holiday being originated from the Celtic holiday of the dead, unless the History Channel and a bunch of historians got it wrong...though I highly doubt this. the bobbing for apples thing being originated with the Roman pagan holiday for the harvest god.....Bonfires being related the sacrifices and such.....just the generalized fact of halloween. I'm surprised actually that more people didn't incoorperate links.

But anyways, you are misinformed if you think my purpose was to convince anyone. You all have free will as well as your own personal convictions, whatever anyone decides is soley between themselves and their personal walk with God, this is as it should be. I just noticed alot of post not informed about the holidays orgins, which is always bad. Everyone should always have an informed view from both sides, breaking down the real facts and making a more informed decission of their own personal involvment in the holiday.

Of course, being this is a Christian site, it's only expected that I post more christian sound links reffering to the holiday from sound theologist and such....also all the scripture, which I do always agree with, scripture.

Anyways, I mainly posted this for people to make their own informed decissions, I can find more then enough links, but it's nothing a simple search on Google can do.

As for my own personal views, they are based on more extensve personal research and my own personal convictions. Mainly actual text and reading...books that is. Not just websites because alot of them need to condense alot of factual knowledge. The links are just for base facts, and general scriptural guidence.

However, I will post some interesting facts, every year around this holiday little over 15000 children go missing, only to be found dead or not to be found at all. Also, in countries such as the UK and here in the US, Crime Scene Investigators search reported sited of ritualistic events to discover some errie evidence, that being human bones, and shadowed remenants of small children and infants. So, it's not just restricted to animals for alot of pagan based occultist out there, and these numbers are not talleyed from the entire year, or from a number of years, this is soley from the holloween season, and the numbers continue to rise. In fact, I wouldn't doubt that the estimate I mentioned is too little.

Anyways, I'll have more interesting facts later, but don't assume that I take the burden of trying to diswade everyone else from this holiday. I know alot of you are old enough to do your own research and make decisions for yourself. I'm just here to make things more....interesting so to speak And I'm still against celebrating holloween just incase some of you didn't know

God Bless,
Archan

P.S. If I did post anything to offend or insult anyone, being this is a sensitive subject, then I fully apologize, I am well aware of the fine line this subject draws, and I try to resspect Ashleys decission to keep things debate free so to speak, while trying to remain informative. If the mods ever think I have crossed that line, just say so and I'll regress.

[Technomancer]

I just noticed alot of post not informed about the holidays orgins, which is always bad. Everyone should always have an informed view from both sides, breaking down the real facts and making a more informed decission of their own personal involvment in the holiday.

I would think that the origins of the holiday are irrelevant to how, and why one celebrates it. That Halloween has pagan origins is well known, however for most people this fact is of little importance since they're just out for a bit of fun, and not worshipping ancient gods. You could choose to honour the gods by bobbing for apples, or you could just do it for it's own sake (and because it's fun!) and never mind the pagans.

However, I will post some interesting facts, every year around this holiday little over 15000 children go missing, only to be found dead or not to be found at all.

Can you back that up with figures from acutal police services? I know that according to the RCMP, there are typically about 4-5 such abductions each year in Canada. I would expect that there would be similar rates in the US and Great Britain (give or take a little). It defies logic to think that both the police and the press would blithely ignore such an extraordinarily large spike in abductions during this time.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20031021.URAREN/TPStory

Also, in countries such as the UK and here in the US, Crime Scene Investigators search reported sited of ritualistic events to discover some errie evidence, that being human bones, and shadowed remenants of small children and infants.

Again, such assertions have to be supported from official sources. From what I have seen, these stories are urban legend and exagerration. I am sorry for debating, but your charges demand evidence.

[cbwing0]

But anyways, you are misinformed if you think my purpose was to convince anyone. You all have free will as well as your own personal convictions, whatever anyone decides is soley between themselves and their personal walk with God, this is as it should be.

Of course, being this is a Christian site, it's only expected that I post more christian sound links reffering to the holiday from sound theologist and such....also all the scripture, which I do always agree with, scripture.

The problem is, the arguments against celebrating Halloween found in those articles (as well as the arguments against Christians celebrating Halloween in general), are full of logical fallacies, lack of scriptural understanding, and gross exaggerations of the extent of occultic practices in modern Haloween celebrations.

I appreciate the fact that you are giving us some background material on which to base our decisions to celebrate or avoid Halloween, since seeing exactly what led someone to believe in a certain way is very important.

As Technomancer said, the history of Halloween is not in dispute, and it is not the basis for my acceptance of the holiday. The question is, does the fact that pagans once held a celebration on October 31st defile that day for all time? My answer is that it does not.

Here are a few more links:
http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/life/hallowee.htm
http://www.youthpastor.com/lessons/index.cfm/Article-Halloween_Christians_on_a_WitchHunt_134.htm

I'm just here to make things more....interesting so to speak

Hopefully things will continue to be interesting .

[Godly Paladin]

The problem I have with it is multifaceted. (Dontcha love that word?)

1) Alot of sickos are out on Halloween, no matter what normal people think. More kids get abducted during that single time period than any other. Not to mention poisoned candy.

2) I think Satan uses it for his own dire purposes. Maybe trick-or-treat itself isn't so bad, but what about the parties and everything that goes along with it?

3) Halloween has changed. A decade or two ago, kids went as superman, batman, etc... Now they go as Grim Reapers, ghouls, and various other demonic figures... Should we be doing that?

Just some thoughts. I hope I didn't get anyone mad or anything...it's just my take on it, but in the end I don't really care.

[cbwing0]

You all have free will as well as your own personal convictions, whatever anyone decides is soley between themselves and their personal walk with God, this is as it should be.

it's just my take on it, but in the end I don't really care.

And that is the most important thing to remember. Somes things are clearly sins, while others are matters of conscience, to be decided by each person. Celebrating Halloween falls in the latter category.

Unfortunately, a lot of Christians who write on the subject take an overly legalistic view, saying that there is no possible way that a Christian could participate in any part of Halloween. This view is false for a number of reasons.

At any rate, I am glad that we can agree to disagree .

[Fireproof]

Not to mention poisoned candy.

That's a serious misconception! To my knowledge, it's happened less than a dozen times in recent years, and that's been intentionally by sicko family members, only given to a "target, not everyone who came. (Stupid sickos. I should smack them in the face with some large bludgeoning-type object. )

[Raiden no Kishi]

I'd dress up if I could afford to cosplay.

Rai

[Archan]

Ah, now where getting somewhere. Things might get more interesting then I first speculated. Many thanks to FunkerVGirl for starting this wonderful topic, it allows me to vent much stored debative energy. And it allows me to work on my swordplay (Bible, Sword, Word Of God...oh nevermind )

Anyways estimates where asked, and I'm here to deliver. i visited the reports and so forth, and noticed alot of the reports about abductions where based of a recent report released by the NIS/MART (National Incidence Studies of Missing, Abducted, Runaway & Thrownaway children), so I looked up and read the ENTIRE document. O.O

Anywhos before I get into what I found I'd just like to state my feelings concerning what I discovered. I don't like being correct about stuff like this, in fact when I read on the posted link as well as other articles concerning abductions during halloween;that the national percentage of child abducted cases were down to about 115, I was very much happy, but even then dissappointed because any ONE life is already too much. But being right about horrendous things such as this does not bring me a sense of joy, but sorrow. Please don't misinterpret my enthusiasm for debate as a sense of joy out of finding out what I have.....because there is no joy out of this for me.

Anyways, here's what I discovered from the NIS/MART report. The fact is that this report was only a study of surveyd incidents happening through the years of 1997-1998, I could be wrong but it roughly covered two years. But anyways, the kiddnappings reported in this report where discredited as not a reliable scientific source and that it could give no backing for a true scientific base that abductions where on the decline. Reasons being ideologies and methods used to tally the numbers varied greatly from a previous report filed in the 80's, covering the years 1987-1988. Along with this, the percentile of children has since grown significantly. These statment are found in the report itself, to which I will post links at the end of this post.

Anyways, abductions and missing persons cases are divided into certain categories, Runaway and thrownaway cases, Family Abduction cases, and Non-Family Stereotypical cases. I've only included the Runaway and Non-Family Sterotypical cases being Family Abduction cases are ususally over custody battles and such, even then though they should not be completely discluded being there have been cases of family members abducting their own children and relatives and subjecting them to ritualistic rape and sometimes death.

Runaway and thrownaway teens. I've included this group because the definition of these cases are sketchy at best. Those being a teenage child is considered a runaway teen is they simply don't return home for an extended amount of time. A thrownaway teen is pretty much a teen or child thrown out of the household without any means to support themselves.....O_O

Estimates:

71% of reported cases (1,190,900) were endagered to sexual and physical abuse.

20% of these cases happened during the Fall season: 343,300

4,100 of these children are not returned home

Offical cases of children being abused sexually or physically is 21% (350,400)

Non-family stereotypical cases: these are defined as the complete strangers whom comes around and abducts children. The definition between non-family and stereotype is a blurred one at best, mainly being defined by that of death.

Estimates:

58,200 where abducted for the study year.

115 were stereotypical abductions

37% Where done by complete strangers (Others involved usually where aquiantances or "good friends")

Fall accounted for 19% of 58,200 (11,058) non-family cases and 33% of the 115 sterotypical cases.

So, with these numbers what one can do (Being the abductions talleyed where not subject to what holiday they occoured on but what season, forcing me to tally the abductions soley for the Fall season (Halloween and Thanksgiving being the only two major holidays of this season) to get the below number of children abducted whom where either sexually abused, physically abused, never found, or killed by either Non-family members or they simply were not returned home and where labled runaways or thorwnaways......

79,737 children.
My orignal rough estimate: 15,000

Also to be noted was the fact that there where alot of particular cases in which the proper authorities simply where not notified, reasons being stated in the report which will be linked at the end of this post. These cases though would also nate a significant sum to add to the collect number above, but because they are not reported or circumstance and methods used for classification prevented the cases to be listed. Samples of such cases are included in the report as well.

Mainly, the sum of internet reports I found GREATLY generalized and thought that the 115 of stereotypical abductions was "thee" number of all abductions done by strangers for the entire year, in some cases this number was used as an annual guide to every year, not just the year used for the report(Which the report itself specifically says sholdn't be used for due to the lack of scientific backing and the large amount of unreported cases)

But anyways, I hope this suffices for now, being it took me quite a while to get a hold of this information and find the appropreate links.

[Archan]

As for the other links posted with the youth pastors and such, they were quite interesting, though I noticed that when they summarized, particularily this link: http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/life/hallowee.htm :this person brought up a key point being, Halloween stands out from christmas and Easter due to the fact that Halloween originated as a Pagan holiday, only to be latter adopted by the Catholic church in an attempt to try to assimilate the holday. Christmas and Easter are holidays set aside to recognize the birth and ressurection of Christ, being the true definition of the holiday. Halloween, as stated by this report, hold no orgins.

And no, I do not agree that the orgin of a holiday is not applicable just because, days are specifically set aside as recognition of certain events in history, if these event in history or ritualistic events didn't take place, the actual day itself would not exist, it's simple logic. There would be no Chirstmas without Christ's Birth, no Martin Luther King day without Martin Luther, no veterans Day without Veterans, No Thanksgiving without the Pilgrimage to the North American continent, and finally no Halloween without the Celtic Day of the Dead. If you ignore the holidays orgin then I peronally think you would ignore the holiday itself because you do not recognize it's history or meaning of why the day is set aside.

Also, the link concluded that the best thing to do was hold a fair as an alternative to participating in the Holiday. Which I think I stated was a VERY good alternative, and a good excuse to witness.

This link on the other hand, was very interesting. The main basis of this guys argument was based on two scriptures, one being Romans 14:13-22 and the other being 1 Corinthians 10:25-31. He argued that the mention of meat was being used as a metaphore to not make a big fuse about a fellow brother eating pegan meat and to not mention it as it would be a stumbling block, this is partially right. Romans 14:13-22 reads as follows,

"Let us not therefore judge one another anymore:but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block or an occasion to fall in his brothers way.

I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it IS unclean.

But if any brother be grieved with THY meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

Let not then your goods be evil spoken of:

For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink: but righteousness and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptible to God and approved of men.

Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for a man who eateth with offence.

It is good neither to eat flesh, not drink wine, nor anything whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak."

This to me sound more like an argument to prove my case then disprove it. the meat mentioned here sound more so like the meat we carry as deciples of chirst, and that if someone where offended by our word, that we not continue in fear of our word being mistranslated as evil. Furthermore, it is stated that it isn't good to partake in flesh or wine that would cause out fellow brothr to stumble. But there is nothing mentioned about partaking on pagan meat as being fine....and that it shouldn't be pointed out but instead left to simmer. In fact, the scripture used to follow up this one seems directly against such a notion,

1 Corinthians 10:25-31:

Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no questions for conscious sake:

For the earth is the Lords, and the fullness thereof.

If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be dissposed to go; whatsoever is set before you eat, asking no questions for conscience sake.

BUT IF ANY MAN SAY UNTO YOU, THIS IS OFFERED UNTO SACRIFICE UNTO IDOLS, EAT NOT FOR HIS SAKE THAT SHEWED IT, and for the conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.

Conscience, i say, not thine own, bot of the other: for why is my liberty judged by another mans conscience?

For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoevr ye do, DO IT ALL TO THE GLORY OF GOD."

It clearly states that meat offered up for any type of idol or ritual other then what is ordained by God, shouldn't be partaken of. And that all we do be only for the glory of God. Hence why i was more puzzled then anything by the particular article that featured these scriptures to come to a conclusion that Brother and Sisters whom partake in Trick or Treating, shouldn't be questioned lest we be a stumbling block?????? the scriptures state that partaking in such activities would be more of a stumbling block then any act of questioning by a fellow brother or sister in Christ.

*Takes a moment to stretch and sheath sword* Man that felt good, haven't had good sword play in quite a while.

But anyways, here are my rough estimates i took the liberty of tallying up, as well as my thoughts on the articles featured, which were very good and insightful (Thumbs up to cbwing...groovey stuff bro! and I hope you enjoyed my latest attempt to make things more interesting )

Mind you, all my comments are said with the humble spirit of friendly debate. I am not targeting anyone, I'm not attacking anyone, and if I have offended anyone I wholly apologize. and please let any moderators not blink an eye to let me know if I have gone to far in any sensitive subject as the one featured here.


Anyways, keep in mind the statistics I posted where only for the US, i have yet to find the proper statistics for global kidnappings during the duration of Halloween and how many are sexually and physically abused or even worse, scilenced for good.

I'll post what else I can find when I find it and go through the proper channels, which leaves.....*Browses through list* Poisoned candy adn whatever lese i can find being the orgins of Halloween and the rituals followed up by the holiday don't seem to be up for debate.

alright, I've written enough and I'm hungry and my eyes are seeing spots. so I'll say ta ta for now and leave you with links to the reports from which the statistics where talleyed from, an additional report from the poliece depatment further stating the inaccuracies taking abduction cases, a reported case of a poor girl killed during halloween by her uncle, another link which serves as a personal thesis from a total stranger more steered towards those whom are parents, and thats about it that I can remember.

God bless,
And don't strain your eyes to much reading....

Archan

http://www.hispanicprwire.com/news_in.php?id=631&cha=8
http://www.crihb.org/FCHS/pdf/Injury/october%202000.pdf
http://www.mtn.org/tccg/documents/lifelines/nightmare.html

(Personal thesis letter)

http://www.missingkids.com/en_US/documents/nismart2_qa.pdf

(Report sating there isn’t a real scientific standard to suggest the amount of kidnappings has declined)

http://www.missingkids.com/en_US/documents/nismart2_runaway.pdf

(Report showing the equivilant sum of runaways who meet potentially fatal means)

http://www.missingkids.com/en_US/documents/nismart2_nonfamily.pdf

(Report showing 115 victims kidnapped were only a small percentage of a larger whole of non-family kidnappings, and that the greatest time of these kidnappings as a whole occurs around the Fall season)

http://www.missingkids.com/en_US/documents/nismart2_overview.pdf

Generalization of the given report.

http://www.americaneagle.com/news/displayArticle.asp?FROM_NEWSLETTER_PAGE=&ARTICLE_ID=23

(Reported 4600 non-family abductions, including 300 cases of murdered children)

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Law/2004/07/28/560337-cp.html

(Cecilia Zhang, who was taken from her family's home last October. A family acquaintance was charged recently with murder. )

http://www.lib.jjay.cuny.edu/len/2002/12.31/page6.html

(States that abductions are not reported enough to give accurate numbers for databases)

[cbwing0]

I do believe that you may get us into some trouble here, Archan. Your second post was the kind of thing that is supposed to be taken to PMs; but since you chose to make your statements openly (and more importantly, since I firmly believe that you are incorrect in many of your assertions from a biblical perspective), I will do the same with mine.

Halloween stands out from christmas and Easter due to the fact that Halloween originated as a Pagan holiday, only to be latter adopted by the Catholic church in an attempt to try to assimilate the holday.

As a matter of fact, the article reminds us that Halloween, Easter, and Christmas all fall on former pagan holidays. The only difference is that Halloween has not widely recognized religious significance (although it is “Reformation Day,â€

[Technomancer]

58,200 where abducted for the study year.

115 were stereotypical abductions

37% Where done by complete strangers (Others involved usually where aquiantances or "good friends")

Fall accounted for 19% of 58,200 (11,058) non-family cases and 33% of the 115 sterotypical cases.

So, with these numbers what one can do (Being the abductions talleyed where not subject to what holiday they occoured on but what season, forcing me to tally the abductions soley for the Fall season (Halloween and Thanksgiving being the only two major holidays of this season) to get the below number of children abducted whom where either sexually abused, physically abused, never found, or killed by either Non-family members or they simply were not returned home and where labled runaways or thorwnaways......

A few things, the cases in the study year are only for 1999, and not 1997 or 1998. The seasonal breakdown of the number of non-family abductions (58,200 for 1999) make it clear that no meaningful conclusion can be drawn with regards to Halloween being significant factor in abductions. Considering non-family abductions as a whole, a greater percentage of people were taken in both spring and summer than in the fall (this considers the whole sample space). From the much smaller sample space of stereotypical abductions (115 for the study year), the variation between seasons is not great (being about 4-5 persons, excepting winter). Without data covering more years, one cannot determine whether this margin is statistically significant or not.

Your data has confirmed my position: there is no evidence to indicate that there is any increase in abductions around Halloween compared to the rest of the year.

[Archan]

Arggggg.....

I'm debating within myself right now of I should post here or over in another thread being I just watched Aliens Verses Predator......decisions decisions.....I guess I'll say a few comments here.

Anywhos, I have already made it clear to the moderators not to bat an eye in informing me when I go to far, I'm sure when and if I cross that line Ash will come over and swap me one, and I'll humbly degress.

If the nature of my post (PS. it was devided into two because I went over the limit of characters allowed for a post, that being 100,000 more or less, I think I talleyed up 130,000 so I had to seperate it into two seperate posts, sorry if this was against any set rules ) is truly that reserved for PM, then I'll cease posting out of respect for the standing rules. till then, I don't want anyone else getting in trouble simply because of me, if any of the mods out there does think I am crossing a line, let me know. I don't want to spark an emotional fire storm...I really don't.

Till then, everything posted has stayed true to the nature of the subject posted, so I'll continue until stated otherwise.

First off, the topic of the holidays orgins remains the same for me, Chirstmas is about Christ's Birth, Easter is about the Ressurection, Holloween is about the Drudaic holday of the Dead, this has been verified by secular historians, even the History channel......these are their true historical orgins, and are not shadowed by earliy catholic church attempts to rob pagans of their holdays, which is not my own personal view but an unanimous fact I'm read from links I and others have posted, I do not mean to offend anyone, once again I'm just restating what I've read. Wheither you choose to find validity of these findings is again entirely up to you, be aware though that secular links where posted as well validating the recognized meaning of these holdays, anything wished to be re-interpreted is between yourselves and your own convictions, as I've already stated. I'm not here to convince, just state facts.

As far as the scripture included in the other post, I get the feeling I was mistaken for quoting that the meat symbolism used was the same for both scriptures, it was not meant to be defined as so. The meat in Romans is the one reffrencing the word we carry as deciples, the meat mentioned in Chronicles was a letter to address how to handle the new relationship between Jew and Gentile, and how to go about socializign among non-believers and to be weary of partaking in pagan and idolistic rituals.

As I stated, the orgins of bobbing for apples and Jack-O-Lanterns and such has not been debated, so this being said it's orgins still remain true to pagan rituals.

If you believe your innocence is enough to purge these events is up to you. However this is just based on scripture included in the posted reports, which still stand firm concerning partaking of pagan rituals of any kind. There are more then enough clearer and cirect scripture reffering to any type of ritualistic practice and such (even unknowingly, which is usually not for long being the Lord is quick to reveal many things, and the blame should not be passed to the means to which such information is revealed, The Lord does not form stumbling stones out of knowledge) which I'm sure everyone is more then familular with and does not need my attempt to post all scriptures reffering to witchcraft, rituals, idolism, etc....... Once again however, in the end it is one's own free will which will mainly determine what their convictions are concerning this subject.

Question however, I was curious as to what translation you are using for the posted scripture cbwing, or if the quotes are summarized statements on the scripture. I myself use KJV for all my scriptual studies and reffrence, I'm miainly just curious however.

As for the estimates, I would think I was more then clear enough by breaking down the numbers even further, also by stating that the validity of the report does not question if that was how many cases occoured, but rather if that was ALL of the cases that occoured. Like I said there are MANY unreported cases which do not get filed pending certain circumstances.

As for the greater number of persons taken, the summer was a larger spike for the Runaway-Throwaway cases (In which case even the terms used to defines these cases are sketchy as I've already stated) which is understandable that it would be summer. However this hardly stands for grounds to neglect the numbers occouring during the Fall.

But FALL was the largest spike for the non-family cases and stereotypical cases. One would think this was enough data to conclude an increase during the Fall season, however if it isn't I'll try to find a more valid source then the FBI.

Regardless the etimated number for ONE study year still remains at a stable 79,737 for the fall season. Which is interesting because I was willing to devide the number into two to co-encide with the odds of a bi-yearly report. If you choose to believe that a majority of these abductions where a result of Thanksgiving rather then Halloween is entirely up to you. Like I said however, there is no existing statistical report for abductions resulting during the Halloween season as addressed directly, or any holiday for that matter. I mainly delievered to you the ultimate seculat document concerning this subject. If this is not enough for you then I'm sorry. If you want direct straight answers from non-chirstian resources via the internet good hunting.

Regardless, facts still remain that kiddnappings occour during the Fall season and most likely Halloween, and as I stated only ONE person kiddnapped and abused in any way is more then too much for me personally.

However, right now I have Predators and Aliens on the brain, so I'll go get everything out of my system and then hopefully go more in depth if need be or if this thread hasn't closed since then.

Told you I make things interesting....any of the other members who know me from the past are more then aware of this, in which case I'll ask them as a personal favour to inform me if things are getting too out of hand

God Bless,
Archan

[Stephen]

Nothing drives me more nuts then when CAA eats a post...I had a huge post written up and the thing just ate it. Anyway, I was on my way to bed when I saw this and felt the need to post again. Ok...let me first say that im glad everyones being civil in this thread...first time it gets sour its getting the lockaroo treatment. Friendly shatterheart warning. Now, onto this Halloween debate. It never ceases to amaze me how we can pick and choose on holiday tradtitions. Like was already mentioned...we are ok with Christmas trees, or easter egg hunts...yet talk about Halloween and your a nutcase. What drives me nuts...is this goes past personal conviction. It seems to be an issue that we cant let everyone think what they want. We will force our convictions on the fools who don't agree with us. If someone was bothered by Halloween stuff...I would not invite them to a Halloween party or a haunted house my town was doing...however things never go the same on the other foot. If a Christian enjoys Halloween there is somthing wrong with how there reading there Bible or whatever. There could be the distinct chance...that they see things a bit different then you do. Which, will happen every once in a while in this life. As a kid my brother and I used to go out and get a few garbage bags worth of candy. It was a blast...one day if I ever have children...I will take them around trick or treating as well. Because its fun for a kid. Innocent fun. Not theological debate...fun. If you hate Halloween...awesome. If you like it, awesome. And that is how it should stay. It is quite grating when people take there dislike of somthing over the line...and go on there own crusade against it. People should not feel dirty or guilty or weird if they disagree with someone on somthing as simple as a holiday. Yet, as Christians we do it to each other. In the name of who knows what...perhaps are own blind personal feelings. I am not targeting Archan or anyone in general on this thread...but I will say this. Where is the line of letting someone think for themself...and hammering them with beefed up lopsided stats and personal views? If were gonna be super strict on one thing...take it all the way. Don't play alacarte with things like this. Only breeds confusion. But, thats my 2 cents...I really wish my first post had not been eaten....I put a good bit more thought into it...now im just tired lol. Anyway, thats Shatterhearts views.

[Bobtheduck]

I believe All Saints Day is actually November 1st?

Thus we celebrate Christ's resurrection on Easter and his birth at Christmas.

Christmas is right... Christmas is celebrated on a day that used to be a pagan holiday. However, Easter follows Passover, so the date has little to do with a pagan holiday other than in coincidence... The eggs, the bunny, and the name do, though... Eggs can have a, redeemed shall we say, meaning of new life...

I can't back any of this up (except for the sunset based days), but this is what I've heard. Yeah, all Saints day is November 1st, but calendars used to be based on sunset rather than midnight, so All Hallows Eve was the EVENING of All Saints Day. (which is why Jews and SDAs celebrate Sabbath starting friday night rather than saturday morning, and end it saturday night rather than midnight sunday morning) They were the same day, even though on a midnight based calandar, the even of all saints day would take place on October 31st. And it was the evening of all saints day that people believed a gateway to their dead reletives or to the spirit world was opened (it was superstition that formed around the celebration) Even though this was Christian in origin, it was picked up by religions that were definately not... It IS used as a holy day for some magick practicing religions, because of this belief as well..

[Archan]

Me, Target? Never.....

I can somewhat relate with point and view your trying to get across, and like I said before I take no joy in finding out statistics such as the ones I have found. I would love for the number of abducted teens to be nearly non-existant, I would love for Halloween to be simply an inoccent dress-up day like crazy hat day or something, I would love for everyone to get along.....but then again who wouldn't? Truth is however we live in a very very very evil world, and the bible states it's only going to get worse.

I agree with the statement that people can choose and God Bless them for the decision they choose, in fact I think I state that in every post I have posted here. Because like I said, what an individual sets his beliefs and convictions on is soley between his/her personal walk with God.

However it is interesting that in other secular sites the most I argue about is the orgin of the holiday, people simply refuse to believe it, this has to be the first time however at a christian forum where I've needed to go through extended measures to prove bad things happen on holloween, whereas other people from completely different faiths and such don't bother because they simply KNOW.

Another thing that strikes me is the extent and amount of times used to somewhat justify and convince speculators that it's all innocent fun. I believe this probably has been the main subject of more longer extensive posts then anything else.

Now Christmas and Easter have been included as well? Well, personally I don't hunt for easter eggs and such, I mainly give reverance to the passover feast and set the day aside for reflection as to what that day really is about, which isn't bunnies. My entire assembly does this in fact....being we all do our homework.

As for Christmas, from my knowledge the only thing truley pagan about this day is the Christmas Tree, I could be wrong however being this thread is not about either christmas or easter.....I will persue these topics no further. More appropreate action would be to set aside seperate threads to handle these specific holidays in particular.

However I was a tad bit confused with the statement to take things all the way? I'm not sure what this reffrences to, but if you mean being more blatant I would dissagree meaning this usually leads to more emotionally fuled posts and such which have lead previous attempts to debate into lockdown. I would like to continue handeling things professionally so to speak, stateing facts and debating these facts, so one can base thier decission on fact then emotionally fuled opinion. Howevr, this may prove to much to ask being someone is always hurt by miss interpretation and missunderstanding concerning senstive topics such as this. Personally, I am surprised this thread had lasted this long. I pray it will continue.

But anyways, on a personal side note, I'm surpised I myself have lasted this long. Its been years since I've had a decent on-line debate, I think the last one I had was at a site called Hugglebunny in which Kami can vouch for me......This is a good warmup, it also preps me for when the actual Halloween holiday itself comes up, in a sense one can say God used this thread to prepare me and possible othrs for the upcoming October season.

In closing however, I'm not saying people shouldn't have fun, and that creative ways cannot be taken to spread more Godly love then Ghostly ghoul on this holiday, as I said before, alot of churches resort to holding their own Haunted house dealing with subjects such as the occoult, and educating the general public, while fairs are put together as well for the kids and to give an alternative to trick or treating, as well as create a great situation to spread the word and witness. Sometimes, when we get the chance we will invite actual victims and former witches and such to give their own eprsonal testimony of their experience and how they were set free from such dark bonds.

Anyways, I'm sure there will be more then enough posts latter one for me to respond to, so till tomorrow....
God Bless,
Archan

[Technomancer]

As for the estimates, I would think I was more then clear enough by breaking down the numbers even further, also by stating that the validity of the report does not question if that was how many cases occoured, but rather if that was ALL of the cases that occoured. Like I said there are MANY unreported cases which do not get filed pending certain circumstances.

If they do not get reported, then one cannot draw any conclusions from them. It is more likely though that they were not reported because a)the disappearance was not noticed or b)not deemed significant.

But FALL was the largest spike for the non-family cases and stereotypical cases. One would think this was enough data to conclude an increase during the Fall season, however if it isn't I'll try to find a more valid source then the FBI.

According to the data that you presented from NISMART, fall only showed the greatest numbers for stereotypical kidnapping cases (complete strangers). There were greater numbers of non-family abductions in both spring and summer (note that this figure ignores runaway cases). Morever the margin of stereotypical abductions in fall over the numbers in spring and summer was not large, and may reflect statistical fluctuations, rather than a pattern. More data needs to be collected from other years before conclusions about fall can be draw here though. Consider the figures presented for abductions for the year of 1999 (from NISMART-2):

Non-family (% for n=58,200) Stereotypical (% for n=115)
Winter 15______________________________9
Spring 36_____________________________28
Summer 30______________________________29
Fall 19_______________________________33

As I said, the margin of fall over Spring and summer is small, and may reflect statistical uncertainty rather than a pattern. Since there is no annual variance calculated, it is impossible to determine this.

Regardless the etimated number for ONE study year still remains at a stable 79,737 for the fall season.

Where are you getting this number? The NISMART2 figures show a number of 58,200 non-family abuductions for the study year. If you're including all missing children, then you are including many incidents that are not relevant (runaways, parental abductions, etc). You can make no assumptions about whether or not some of those judged to not be abductions actually were.

If you choose to believe that a majority of these abductions where a result of Thanksgiving rather then Halloween is entirely up to you. Like I said however, there is no existing statistical report for abductions resulting during the Halloween season as addressed directly, or any holiday for that matter.

Of the abductions that did occur, there is no reason from the report data to link any of them specifically with any holiday. Rather, they reflect incidents from the entire fall season, not just two specific days therin.

Regardless, facts still remain that kiddnappings occour during the Fall season and most likely Halloween, and as I stated only ONE person kiddnapped and abused in any way is more then too much for me personally.

Yes, abductions do occur during fall, and some probably happen during Halloween. However, you have not made the case for any significant increase in such events during either the fall season or on Halloween itself.

[cbwing0]

Anywhos, I have already made it clear to the moderators not to bat an eye in informing me when I go to far, I'm sure when and if I cross that line Ash will come over and swap me one, and I'll humbly degress.

I think Shatterheart’s post indicates that we are still within the bounds of civility, so for now we can continue.

It is interesting that you would think of this debate as preparation. One of the things that I like about internet forums is that they challenge you to think about issues that you might otherwise ignore. For me, this debate would help me prepare to dispute the issue with people who believe as you (along with the others in this thread) do, Archan . But that’s neither here nor there…

First off, the topic of the holidays orgins remains the same for me, Chirstmas is about Christ's Birth, Easter is about the Ressurection, Holloween is about the Drudaic holday of the Dead, this has been verified by secular historians, even the History channel......these are their true historical orgins, and are not shadowed by earliy catholic church attempts to rob pagans of their holdays,

As for Christmas, from my knowledge the only thing truley pagan about this day is the Christmas Tree, I could be wrong however being this thread is not about either christmas or easter

Actually, the method the Catholic church chose for setting the date of Christmas was exactly the same as that for Halloween. Christmas was set on December 25th to supercede the pagan festival of Saturnalia, which has many similar traditions (the Christmas tree, giving presents, etc.) to the modern version of Christmas. The reason that we are not troubled by this is that the day, as well as the symbols associated with the holiday, have changed their meaning.

This fact is pointed out in the material compiled by the History channel, in their study of the history of Halloween after it came to America. Until the 1950’s, Halloween in American was primarily an adult’s holiday, where people would gather for parties and such. In the 1950’s, children began to participate by dressing up in costumes, playing fun games, and going door-to-door to collect candy (otherwise known as trick-or-treating). While these practices have parallels in ancient pagan rituals, their meanings have drastically changed.

Of course this is quite different from actual neopagan rituals that occur on the same day. I am not troubled by the fact that these events coincide, neither is meant to honor the other. If you ask the average parent taking his children out trick-or-treating, I think you will find that they are not doing it to honor Samhain. In other words, the only things linking the two events that now occur together on Halloween is that their date was established on that of an ancient pagan ritual, since they now have entirely different purposes.

As far as the scripture included in the other post, I get the feeling I was mistaken for quoting that the meat symbolism used was the same for both scriptures, it was not meant to be defined as so.

I disagree with this, but my point still stands. The matter was left to the conscience of each Christian, and it was those that chose to abstain that were called weaker, not those that exercised their freedom in Christ by partaking of the meat (or in this case, celebrating the modern American version of Halloween).

As I stated, the orgins of bobbing for apples and Jack-O-Lanterns and such has not been debated, so this being said it's orgins still remain true to pagan rituals.

Actually, I was hoping that I wouldn’t have to belabor the point. While I agree that their origin is not being debated, I have challenged the assumption that the original symbol should be identified with the modern version. One was intended to honor a false god] If you believe your innocence is enough to purge these events is up to you. However this is just based on scripture included in the posted reports, which still stand firm concerning partaking of pagan rituals of any kind.[/quote]

As I have said time and time again, this only has weight if it can be shown that the secular celebration of Halloween is in fact a pagan ritual. It is not enough to show that it occurs on the same day and uses similar symbols, since the meaning of these has changed over time. If that were all that was needed, then we would not be justified in celebrating any day, ever (for more on that, see my previous post).

Question however, I was curious as to what translation you are using for the posted scripture cbwing, or if the quotes are summarized statements on the scripture. I myself use KJV for all my scriptual studies and reffrence, I'm miainly just curious however.

I use the New International Version (NIV) for all of my scripture quotations. I find that it is easier to understand than the KJV in casual discourse, although I am familiar with the KJV, having read it KJV cover-to-cover.

Another thing that strikes me is the extent and amount of times used to somewhat justify and convince speculators that it's all innocent fun. I believe this probably has been the main subject of more longer extensive posts then anything else.

With all due respect, you have failed to address a number of my arguments on this point (from my first post, that is).

It is rather unfortunate that you have become essentially the lone defender of your position. Usually I am the one that ends us as the underdog in these things . However, if you look just at the number of people who have responded to the thread with their opinions, it is pretty evenly divided. It would bring me great joy if all Christians could, “Always be prepared to give an answer for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respectâ€

[Stephen]

Another thing that strikes me is the extent and amount of times used to somewhat justify and convince speculators that it's all innocent fun. I believe this probably has been the main subject of more longer extensive posts then anything else.

No more or less work I suppose then those who dedicate there time to a false crusade against the day.

As for Christmas, from my knowledge the only thing truley pagan about this day is the Christmas Tree, I could be wrong however being this thread is not about either christmas or easter.....I will persue these topics no further. More appropreate action would be to set aside seperate threads to handle these specific holidays in particular.

However I was a tad bit confused with the statement to take things all the way? I'm not sure what this reffrences to, but if you mean being more blatant I would dissagree meaning this usually leads to more emotionally fuled posts and such which have lead previous attempts to debate into lockdown.

I suppose to avoid confusion I probably should have just been blunt. If your gonna condemn people for celebrating Halloween...(which no matter what you say, judging you soly by your posts...you do not allow others to have there own views without jamming stats in there face and such which I mentioned) Don't you dare use other pagon traditions..at that point, you are simply a hypocrit. Which, there goes the Christmas tree...I am quite sure Christmas reefs fall into the same area. When you step back and look....a great deal has pagon origin. I suppose thats all I will say for now.

[Archan]

Ah....I have become the lone underdog then huh? In the words of Audio Adrenaline, "Thats that way, I like it........they call me the underdog )

I'm also surprised my simple method or stating, digesting, posting, and presenting facts has been somewhat interpreted as a false crusade, I'm almost honored I alone was able to make things this interesting.....I never knew I had it in me ^^;

But anyways, I apologize if the statistics, facts, links and so forth may have been upsetting, but as I have said I don't feel reponsible being I didn't make these facts or statistics, this is simply material that was available to me via the internet, as well as other soruces which I found only soley because of other posts linked, in particular the NIS report. I actually could post more biased links and facts, but I choose not to, at least not until I'm asked to. Also, I only posted the NIS report because it was asked of me, but these facts (As I've already stated) are secular having no theological influence.

Also, I posted the statistics to disprove that regardless of other reports, the average kiddnapping and abduction report yearly is NOT roughly 115, this number was a lone estimate taken from the NIS report in reffrence to one study year......which is still inaccurate as the report itself and other numerous law officals have stated.

My argument was not to state a increase during Halloween either, but that the kiddnappings occured. As for where the 79,737 estimate came from, it was simple math actually. And in fact I think I under-calculated the figures.

The Fall Estiamate of R&T cases where 343,300 (20% of the reported 1,190,900 cases), I made an honest mistake and deducted an additional 20% from the 343,300 estimate to calculate 68,660 cases.

Of the 58,200 Non-Parent cases, 19% happened during the fall leaving me with 11,058. 33% of the stereotypical cases (115) happened during the fall as wel leaving me with another 21 cases. Sooooooo.......

11,058+21+68,660= 79,739 cases in total for R&T and Non-Family abduction cases happening during the fall.

Like I said however, I miss calculated taking an additional 20% from the R&T cases, meaning my calculated equation should have been as so:

343,300+11,058+21= 354,379 cases in total.

I already stated my reasons for including the R%T cases as stated in the report, and reasons as well as examples of such cases are given in the reports themselves.....

However, just for curiosities sake, I'll disclude the R&T cases to leave me with 11,058 cases, meaning I was off by 5,000 cases roughly, and for some reason this still doesn't make me feel better......O.O



As for other subjects addressed, I think I already said I'm not Catholic, so such things do not phase me in my observation of the holiday, and will no longer address non-thread related subjects such as Christmas or Easter bieng those are completely different holidays.....

Anyways, the subjects of "It's an innocent holiday because kids are having innocent fun" seem more personal opinion then historical fact, in which case I already gave my own personal opinion in my very first post. I think the only reason this post has gone so long as it has is because statistics where requested, mind you only on the subject of abduction during halloween, and if you really want to get technical, The drudaic holiday was meant to recognize the Fall and winter Seasons, not just one day being these seasons are when things die and slumber, so the entire season is recognized in which case the statistics are more then already valid. Note: I did not include the statistics for Winter...though I could.....

As for scripture, like I stated I have no need to post all the scriptures concerning witchcraft, occult, and entertaining such things. The scriptures which have been discussed are soley those included in the featured reports linked by cbwing, which surprisingly had no other scriptures relating to witchcraft and such. But form the looks of it it seems we both have agred to disagree with how the scripture should be interpreted and degfines, which is cool. I would actually like to refrain including and debating too much scriputre being I know this sites policy about theology and things of this nature, so I would encourage refraining from doing so, but if you really want to I'll do more sword play till this thread is closed as a direct result.

Ah, NIV? Groovey, it is more readible, I favour KJV though because the wording is much more poetic and powerful in my opinion, and I personally don't have trouble understanding things.

But anyways, I'll wait till hte next two to three uber-long posts so I can again post my own uber-long post.

As always though, I apologize if I offended anyone, and if things do get to out of hand please feel free to let me know. Here, I'll post a danging bannana just to lighten the mood if need be

God Bless,
Archan

P.S. Out of curiosity, what question have I yet to address cbwing?

[Banana-chan]

Halloween is my favorite time of year because i get to dress up as an anime character and make my costume. Lots of fun!

[Technomancer]

[color=DarkGreen][align=center][size=84]
Also, I posted the statistics to disprove that regardless of other reports, the average kiddnapping and abduction report yearly is NOT roughly 115, this number was a lone estimate taken from the NIS report in reffrence to one study year......which is still inaccurate as the report itself and other numerous law officals have stated.

First, I never said that 115 was the average number, and in fact explicitly mentioned the problem of taking numbers for one year alone. Given my education, I am well used to dealing with statistics, and time series in particular. However, in the absence of other data, the number of kidnappings can be taken to be a reasonable estimate of the actual mean.

My argument was not to state a increase during Halloween either, but that the kiddnappings occured.

Then why mention it? From the original context of your statement, it seemed that you were trying to make some sinister link between the holdiay and child disappearances. This is simply not borne out by the data. IOW, your statistics show that there is nothing particularly notable about Halloween from the point of view of missing children. Moreover, in your original post citing the figure of 15,000 you also seemed to indicate that most of them were either killed or never found. In reality in both the R&T and the non-family abductions reports, the missing person was found alive in ~99% of all cases (usually within 24 hrs).

As for where the 79,737 estimate came from, it was simple math actually. And in fact I think I under-calculated the figures.

The Fall Estiamate of R&T cases where 343,300 (20% of the reported 1,190,900 cases), I made an honest mistake and deducted an additional 20% from the 343,300 estimate to calculate 68,660 cases.

Of the 58,200 Non-Parent cases, 19% happened during the fall leaving me with 11,058. 33% of the stereotypical cases (115) happened during the fall as wel leaving me with another 21 cases. Sooooooo.......

11,058+21+68,660= 79,739 cases in total for R&T and Non-Family abduction cases happening during the fall.

Okay, fair enough. But we have now established that the problem of missing children is not relevant to Halloween, since there is no increase in abductions or R&T cases during this time.

As for other subjects addressed, I think I already said I'm not Catholic, so such things do not phase me in my observation of the holiday, and will no longer address non-thread related subjects such as Christmas or Easter bieng those are completely different holidays.....

There is relevance since Christmas does not coincide with Christ's birth, but rather a pagan Roman holiday (as well as others associated with the winter solstice such as Yule). Many of our Christmas practices are also pagan in origin (e.g. mistletoe, Christmas trees, etc). Easter is named for the Saxon goddess of the dawn, Eoster since it coincides with celebrations relating to the vernal equinox. Eggs and rabbits are all very ancient fertility symbols, especially meaningful to people living in Northern Europe. It is likely that the preference for Easter weddings was also practiced in pagan times. If you condemn Halloween because of its pagan origins, you must also condemn these other holidays as well.

[Raiden no Kishi]

Frankly, I believe that, in it's modern American version, Halloween is so cheapened and commercialized that for the most part it's harmless. I see nothing wrong with dressing up (as long as it's something you wouldn't mind going up to Jesus' front door in ^_^) and getting candy. When people want to use that day to do evil things, that's regrettable, but it's not the day's fault.

However, my mom (and probably my dad, though I haven't asked him) believes differently, and so I am restricted to either going to a church's "harvest festival" or sitting at home, giving the anklebiters candy. I can work with that and be happy.

Rai

[cbwing0]

Anyways, the subjects of "It's an innocent holiday because kids are having innocent fun" seem more personal opinion then historical fact, in which case I already gave my own personal opinion in my very first post.

That is all that I have been trying to say since we started] but these facts (As I've already stated) are secular having no theological influence.[/quote]

This last statement seems to conflict with your assertions up to this point. If these facts are merely secular (although it is hard to imagine how a genuine fact could be called “secularâ€

[Anna Mae]

I personally do not to dress up for Halloween. I have learned some of the horrifying things behind it and the dressing up, so I just prefer not to. I generally spend the evening praying instead.

[Archan]

Ah, before I start funny thing happened.....
The night I posted my last reponse I cranked up the radio for the ride home and sure enough, my radio station (Loyal Air1 listener) played the Underdog song by Audio Adrenaline....too funny.

Anyways, sorry for not replying as soon as I usually do. The wretched collage beast is slowly starting to assimulate my life....along with this I had to go paint a vortex on some guys ceiling Friday, muster up some Super Heroes for another project saturday, and this Morn' I needed to got talk about Hell with some other people, in fact I'll probably be gone tonight as a result of talking about more hell.....ah, tiss be my life.

Anyways, where was I? Oh yeah.......

Technomancer:

Ah, I never said that you said the number was 115, this is what was stated in one of the reports you linked, which was a false assumption on their part.....

Your education? Sorry, what is it that you do? Regardless I myself am a humble Art student, but have been known to hold intellectual debates with Psychologist, Ph.D's, Astro Physicist, and others whom usually credit my arguments to be more then valid, so educational means and such shouldn't be too much of a determining factor of an anime thread. Besides, I doubt either of us work at the Department Of Justice, in particular specialist in the department of Missing Persons.......

Why mention them....why wouldn't I? Given the original context from the 15,000 estimate I did was stated as saying either they weren't found or found killed, I humbly admit I was wrong. The number has more then overshot my original 15,000 estimate, and though they are not all killed or remain missing, a very large percentage of the R&T cases and non-family missing persons cases occuring during the fall season alone where subjected to physical and sexual harm. (79% roughly, not sure though) This can be more then related to such rituals as blood letting and in particular sexualt rituals that have been verified by former occultic witches and high priests.....

As for the 99%, they weren't all found alive. If you read the document closely, it states that 99% of all the Cases (1,300,000 roughly) where found alive OR located, and that the other fraction (which still hit the thousands) had not been located at all.

As far as a need to be an increase....why? Does not the fact that the abductions themselves occouring in coencidence with the fall holiday enough for you, better yet, I'll divide the new number of 354,379 (Being the older 79,737 figure is not accurate) in three (To accurately represent the three months of September, October, and November) to give a general number of 118,126 cases that are garaunteed to have happened during the month of October.

But regardless, as I already said you wont find an offical documentation of any abductions occuring within the result of a particular holiday, because it doesn't exist....for any holiday. The numbers I got here are, once again, from reports and papers that where the foundation of the articles you posted.

Also, here in California, particulalrity in the hills of Hacienda and other secluded wooded areas, there are more then enough reports of occult activity increasing during the holloween season from local papers and communities, and sure enough the next few days children (in particular teenagers) are reported missing. So when things are happening in your own backyard, it's hard to ignore them and write them off as a simply statistic.

cbwing:

Ah, so we have agreed to disagree....groovey.

Hum, first off this isn't a theological thead, though I wish it where, the rules simply state that theological subjects are prohobited....The facts i have stated are either historical, other peoples encounters or opinions, or legalized documentation. The little sword play we had might have slipped through only because it was a featured scritpure in the link you posted to set a basis for you argument, hence it was a valid subject to the thread. However, I doubt any further sword play would be kindly endured by teh moderators and Ash. Hence, I try too keep this debate as scientific as possible. The only point I have been trying to make are the orgins of the holiday, the activities and their orgins, a other illegal and troubling activites such as abductions and whatnot.
Also, it is a factor that facts be of theological or secular orgin mainly from the points you already brought up, those being it's implications, the beliefs of the discoverer, as well as the methodology and such used. As for how I can use them, these facts are primarily scientific, and science and the Bible do mix, unless you perhaps think the latter?

Far more then 354,379 cases? Just for the United States alone?:eyebrow:

As for the school year being a plausible reason for these abductions, if this where true the abduction spike for the summer (which is more of a plausible senerio being children are away from home much longer here due to travel, visitations, outside activites, home alone, ect......) would be evenly divided amongst the fall, winter, and spring seasons.

Ah, now now now, I'll tel you my denominization if you tell me yours.....tee hee

Oh come now, I've more then dicected and read all the links and material you've provided, as well as address roughly three members on this issue sifting through all the lengthy posts to address and spend time addressing the questions you pose.........I'm most ikely gonna miss something so the least you can do is just tell me what questions I've missed. If not I'm afraid you'll have to wait till I can backtrack and see what exactly I didn't address as well as see if it's plausible to our current discussion.

*Laughs* Raiden No Kishi said ankle bitters....tee hee.

God Bless,
Archan

[Technomancer]

Ah, I never said that you said the number was 115, this is what was stated in one of the reports you linked, which was a false assumption on their part.....

They never assumed it was the mean either, they only gave it as the number of abductions for the sample year. BTW, you were the one who linked to the reports, not me.

Your education? Sorry, what is it that you do? Regardless I myself am a humble Art student, but have been known to hold intellectual debates with Psychologist, Ph.D's, Astro Physicist, and others whom usually credit my arguments to be more then valid, so educational means and such shouldn't be too much of a determining factor of an anime thread. Besides, I doubt either of us work at the Department Of Justice, in particular specialist in the department of Missing Persons.......

I'm a Ph.D student in electrical engineering. I specialize in signal processing and telecommunications(which is heavily dependant on statistics), although I have also done some work relating to neural networks and machine learning. While I don't work with population statistics, I am familiar with methods in time series analysis, and statistical estimation.

Why mention them....why wouldn't I? Given the original context from the 15,000 estimate I did was stated as saying either they weren't found or found killed, I humbly admit I was wrong. The number has more then overshot my original 15,000 estimate, and though they are not all killed or remain missing, a very large percentage of the R&T cases and non-family missing persons cases occuring during the fall season alone where subjected to physical and sexual harm. (79% roughly, not sure though) This can be more then related to such rituals as blood letting and in particular sexualt rituals that have been verified by former occultic witches and high priests.....

The problem is that as we have established there is no demonstrable rise in abductions or R&T cases around dates of occult signficance. As a result, there is no reason to believe that Halloween is any more risky from a missing persons point of view than any other time of the year. As far as sexual assaults go, the number is about ~46% of all abductions in the NISMART dataset, and ~31% for physical assaults. These absolutely cannot be demonstrated to have any link to occult practices, since these events obviously happen without any such links (and far more often). Given the data presented, there is no reason whatsoever to believe that any ritual aspect was present in these cases.

As far as "occult high priests" are concerned, such stories are more the stuff of urban legend and public hysteria. Neither the FBI nor the RCMP lend much credence to such stories, so I see no reason why we should either.

As for the 99%, they weren't all found alive. If you read the document closely, it states that 99% of all the Cases (1,300,000 roughly) where found alive OR located, and that the other fraction (which still hit the thousands) had not been located at all.

No, in 99% of all abduction cases, the NISMART2 report clearly states that the victims were returned alive to their families. In R&T cases, the missing persons are returned in 99% of all cases. While in the latter, the authors don't specifically state that the person is alive, this can be reasonably inferred given that the alternative is rather notable. If the subject were found dead in a signficant number of cases, it would merit mentioning.

As far as a need to be an increase....why? Does not the fact that the abductions themselves occouring in coencidence with the fall holiday enough for you

No is not. Abductions also happen in winter, spring and summer. There is no reason to believe that there is anything remakable about their occuring in fall as well. Moreover, as is clear from the data, there is no coincidence with the fall holiday for the abudction data. You keep inferring this without any reasonable basis for doing so. You need to show that there is an increased number of abductions around Halloween for there to be any positive link. Not only have you failed to show this, but the statistics which you have provided directly refute your contention of their being a link at all.

, better yet, I'll divide the new number of 354,379 (Being the older 79,737 figure is not accurate) in three (To accurately represent the three months of September, October, and November) to give a general number of 118,126 cases that are garaunteed to have happened during the month of October.

You are being disingenous in linking abductions to the numbers you present here. You know as well as I do that those figures include runaway/throwaway cases in them as well. Since the actual number of reported abudctions for the study year was 58,200, the real numbers are considerably lower. Even with the inflated numbers there is no linkage to Halloween or to the fall season itself. You could with as much justification argue against Easter, since more abductions occur in the spring than in fall.

Also, here in California, particulalrity in the hills of Hacienda and other secluded wooded areas, there are more then enough reports of occult activity increasing during the holloween season from local papers and communities, and sure enough the next few days children (in particular teenagers) are reported missing. So when things are happening in your own backyard, it's hard to ignore them and write them off as a simply statistic.

Anecdotal accounts are problematic since they lack rigorous examination, and may come from dubious sources. There may be people into the occult in your area, or just poseurs. Or there could be just teenagers getting drunk in the woods and horsing around. Pranksters, local busybodies, and the overly credulous probably have a role in many of these reports as well.

As far as missing persons go, has anyone followed up these cases (and I don't mean through the local rumour mill)? People looking for sinister connections with Halloween may simply be paying more attention to missing persons reports around that time of the year. Also, many of the cases may be runaways, or kids who have simply taken off with friends, or who have very reactive parents. Even if abductions do occur, it may simply be due to greater opportunity: many teenagers will be out partying, and less than sober. Anonymity is also readily purchased in the form of a mask, which will not be much remarked on at this time of the year. In short, there are other explanations that are more credible than sinister occult plots.

[cbwing0]

I think this is getting a bit silly at this point, yet here I am, making another post .

As for how I can use them, these facts are primarily scientific, and science and the Bible do mix, unless you perhaps think the latter?

Perhaps think the latter of what? I'm assuming you mean the opposite of the opinion you just stated] Also, it is a factor that facts be of theological or secular orgin mainly from the points you already brought up, those being it's implications, the beliefs of the discoverer, as well as the methodology and such used.[/quote]
Before I continue, I would encourage you to quote the portions of a post to which you are replying, as it makes things much easier. Moving on...

The only point I have been trying to make are the orgins of the holiday, the activities and their orgins, a other illegal and troubling activites such as abductions and whatnot.

And the only point that I have been trying to make is that these do not prevent one from celebrating the modern version of Halloween in good conscience.

As for the school year being a plausible reason for these abductions, if this where true the abduction spike for the summer (which is more of a plausible senerio being children are away from home much longer here due to travel, visitations, outside activites, home alone, ect......) would be evenly divided amongst the fall, winter, and spring seasons.

Children are away on vacations more during the summer, but they are also accompanied by their parents and/or other adults. In contrast, they are alone at school all day.

I did not say that the school year was a plausible reason for the increased abductions]

[/color] Ah, now now now, I'll tel you my denominization if you tell me yours.....tee hee

I am a Baptist, so now it's your turn to tell .

Oh come now, I've more then dicected and read all the links and material you've provided, as well as address roughly three members on this issue sifting through all the lengthy posts to address and spend time addressing the questions you pose.........I'm most ikely gonna miss something so the least you can do is just tell me what questions I've missed.

You may have read my links, but you missed quite a few things in my posts. Since you seem either unwilling or unable to take the time to find them, I will briefly re-state the points to which I have been referring:

1.If the justification for condemning Halloween lies in that fact that it concides with a pagan holiday, then this leads to the conclusion that we cannot celebrate any day of the year, since the sheer number of past/present pagan religions ensures that every day of the year is connected with a pagan festival.

2.Similarly, symbols can drastically change their meanings over time. While the Jack-o-lantern, trick-or-treating, etc. may have had sinister undertones in the past, that is not the case in the modern version of Halloween. I used the example of the cross, which was transformed from a symbol of cruelty, to a symbol of Christ's sacrifice and love for the world. The symbols of Halloween (and Christmas and Easter, for that matter) have changed their meanings in the same way.

3.When taken to their logical conclusions, the argument against Halloween rests on the fallacious assumption that anything connected with sin is tainted for all time. However, the Bible clearly states that it is the content of our hearts that defile us, rather than participating in activities that resemble old pagan practices while having completely different meanings. I used the example of sacrifice in ancient Judaism. Pagans also practiced sacrifice, but the important difference their reasons for performing the sacrifices. The mere fact that such a practice was also used by pagans did not defile the Jewish sacrifices. In the same way, the modern secular version of Halloween has a completely different purpose from pagan rituals. For this reason, one is not justified in condemning the secular celebration simply on the basis of its resemblance to the pagan festival.

Since these were the main points of my posts that I discussed at length on more than one occasion, I find it surprising that you would miss them.

[termyt]

I think there is a bigger issue here we are skipping and it is leading us dangerously close to an argument and the locking of this thread, if we have no already gone too far. I think the issue comes down to one question.

Is it wrong to engage in a celebration that does not focus directly on the Lord?

I think it is safe to say it is indeed wrong to celebrate things directly opposing the Lord, so satanic, occultist ceremonies - black sabbaths, séances, and the like - should be discouraged.

But is a costume party with carved pumpkins and apple bobbing and the like with little or no religious significance wrong? (How about Super Bowl parties and school dances, then? Is there a difference? There could well be…)

The answer to that question should lead us down the correct path, which may not lead to the same conclusion for all of us. “Think and let think,â€

[EireWolf]

Is it bad to go out for Halloween? I personally dont think so. I like to get dressed as someone else for a day and get candy for it. I'm sure there's probably this big backstory on it, but I only see it and most other people only see it as dressin up and getting candy. Sure satanists and whoever else see it as a holy day and sacrafices something on that day but I dont think that should limit us as christians to go out dressed getting candy. I see it as, even if we dont do it, the Satanists will do their thing anyway!

If anyone else thinks this way and is dressing up for Halloween, please post what you are planning to dress as here! Also if you have an opinion, you are also welcome!

Im gonna be SAILOR MARS!! yay!

I like Halloween]Is it wrong to engage in a celebration that does not focus directly on the Lord?[/quote]

No. Ever been to a birthday party?

As for me... I'll probably dress up as a turn-of-the-century Native American. (I am part Native American, so I don't have to dress up to be one most of the time. ) I may also use the same costume I'll use to go to the Renaissance Faire next month. Or, I may make up something totally random. Any excuse to make a fool of myself and get away with it.