What does science say about God?

Talk about anything in here.

What does science say about God?

Postby Dead-Aim » Thu Jul 31, 2003 3:43 pm

I did not create this but I belive it brings in great insight on the matter.

I also don't know if this is in the right forum so if not move it please.


Does God really exist?
You might wonder. If your looking for measured proof that God exists, science has been unable to find it.
Or has it?
For centuries, science and faith have seemed to be worlds apart. Much of this happened because of how the church in Rome treated a scientist named Galileo in the early 1700s. Galileo publicly supported a new theory that Earth revolved around the sun. But the church insisted the Bible said otherwise. As a result, the pope punished Galileo---he even threatened to have Galileo killed unless he began to teach again that the sun revolved the Earth. From that point on, many "religious" people saw scientists as people who wanted to attack religion; and scientists became anti-religion.
What people didn't know was that someday Galileo, who deeply believed in God, would be known as one of the scientists of all time. He foresaw that a new invention, the telescope, would prove the church wrong---as it did. He wanted to save them from embarrassment of supporting the wrong theory. But they wouldn't listen.
Because of this divide, it seems that we today have two choices: accept God on the merit of faith, choosing to believe what the Bible says (that God does exist and loves us individually) or believe what science claims to prove (that there is no God).
However, over the last fifty years, science has admitted that every discovery leads to more questions than answers. A century ago, many scientists believed they were on the verge of knowing all the answers regarding how we arrived on this planet called Earth. Now scientists say they have more to discover, the more they discover they don't know.
For example, if the force of gravity were slightly less, the universe would collapse on itself, like a balloon with the air sucked out of it. If the force of gravity were slightly more, it would have drifted apart as gases, instead of forming solids. If the force that held protons and electrons together were the slightest bit weaker, hydrogen would not exist, and therefore water would not exist, and therefore life would not exist. At all levels, it seems coincidence after coincidence after coincidence has made life possible in a lonely, cold universe.
Yet are there coincidences? Scientists have tried different computer models to simulate the creation of a universe that could sustain life. They can only find one model that works: Christian's, with the incredible adjustments of creation that truly are difficult to believe as mere coincidences, As a result, many scientists are led to faith in God because of what they see in the universe---an amazingly complex interworking of humans, plants, animals, stars, etc. It can only be the product of careful design of a loving creator.
Many scientists now believe that the fifteen-billon-year construction has had one goal: producing human life. Now that should make you feel special :thumb: ! Science is proving that of human life being produced by chance are like winning the same ten-million-dollar lottery every week for the next year.
It's true that belief in God is truly a leap of faith, and no one can be forced to believe. Yet every year we see further proof that science---and reason---no longer stand in the way of a belief in God as the creator of this universe.
"Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?'" John 11:25-26
User avatar
Dead-Aim
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2003 10:05 pm
Location: Brandon, Fl

Postby Mithrandir » Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:03 pm

Am I gonna get kicked off this board if I rip the assertions in this thing to shreds?

Seriously. I wanna know.
User avatar
Mithrandir
 
Posts: 11071
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 12:00 pm
Location: You will be baked. And then there will be cake.

Postby Retten » Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:12 pm

Thats great :thumb: a good read
Image

formerly WhiteBlaze
User avatar
Retten
 
Posts: 785
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 10:00 am
Location: um.....thats a good question

Science is cool, man!

Postby Erenan » Thu Jul 31, 2003 8:37 pm

There certainly are many different ways that science can support the existence of God. Honestly, I'm not really much of a scientist. I've just heard about some of this stuff, so if I get some facts wrong, then you'll have to excuse me. But some of these ideas are really good. For instance, Professor Stephen Hawking described how our universe is cooling off, and he claims that a universe like ours must have existed for only a finite amount of time, because if it had existed forever, then it would have already reached a point of perfect equilibrium in which it's the same temperature everywhere. So he's concluded that the universe started existing about 15 billion years ago. But then he chooses not to address why the universe began, claiming that it's a question for religion and metaphysics. Well, logically, if the universe began, then something must have caused it, whether the result of an intelligent choice or a random event. If the latter, then something must have caused that event too. Same two choices for what caused that event. We can't very well keep on going backwards in time forever like that, so somewhere along the line, there must have been a decision that ultimately began the creation of the universe. And who can make a decision but a personal being? This alone is enough proof for me that God exists.
Seven Taco Button

"'The rhodes and honkies are not effective!' Cried one of the angry women, 'Prepare the twelve foot grand!'"

Erenan, Guitar Robot and Progressive Avant-Rock Jazz Metalhead Extraordinaire
User avatar
Erenan
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2003 11:48 pm
Location: Seven seconds south of your current position

Postby Psycho Ann » Thu Jul 31, 2003 8:56 pm

My dad's has a Ph.D in physics and I love physics too. We're both devoted believers and I honestly can't find anything that directly refutes the existance of God. And why does the Bible doesn't have so many scientific facts for God to prove Himself?

Why does HE need to prove himself to us? And even without the scientific stuff the Bible is pretty thick already. Most people (including me) are already discourage by the vast amount of reading, why add another few hundred pages to explain the tranlating of DNA codes or the meticulous atom by atom explaination on just HOW He created Adam?

Well, that last point wasn't quite made in all serious-ness but I hope you guys get my drift XD

And Oldphilosopher, I would like to hear what you got to say. It's the "other" side that makes it all the more real ^^
-Psalm 27:1-
The Project - Online Christian manga, rambling FAQs, and Truly Random Scripture.
Cognatio- Online Christian Manga Exchange

"MOES. I can has Sane Sig now?"
User avatar
Psycho Ann
 
Posts: 669
Joined: Sat May 31, 2003 6:12 pm
Location: Fremont, USA

Postby Saint » Thu Jul 31, 2003 9:02 pm

Whats worse is some of the "scientific" ideas that try and disprove Christianity that are actually so full of holes themselves. how foolish.
We are saved by grace thru faith, not of works... "keep on fighting for grace"
User avatar
Saint
 
Posts: 538
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2003 9:29 pm
Location: Alabama

Postby Ashley » Thu Jul 31, 2003 9:10 pm

I found a particular discussion in my chemistry class fascinating:

Water is the only liquid that's solid form is lighter than it's liquid form...we know this because ice floats. It does so because water is polar, and the molecules have to align themselves so that all the + sides line up with all the - sides. This makes greater surface area, and therefore, floats. Now this all sounds boring and stuff, until you consider that because of this tiny property, when a lake freezes it doesn't freeze all the way down. Instead the ice only freezes a few inches, and acts as an insulator for the life beneath. To me, that's a Heavenly Father tucking his creation in for the winter, not some random scientific fact.

There are all kinds of other things like that too; the global memory of a flood, for example, and pages of archaological evidence that proves the characters in the bible were indeed real people. The skeptic in me refuses to believe this is all mere chance.
Image
User avatar
Ashley
 
Posts: 7364
Joined: Mon May 26, 2003 10:00 am
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Postby Straylight » Thu Jul 31, 2003 10:09 pm

oldphilosopher wrote:Am I gonna get kicked off this board if I rip the assertions in this thing to shreds?

Seriously. I wanna know.


If you mean the classic multiquote method, no, the thread will just be locked, that's all. We don't encourage debates really.
[align=center]
Image
Banner above created using my avatar generator tool.
You know you want try it.
User avatar
Straylight
 
Posts: 2346
Joined: Mon May 26, 2003 12:00 pm
Location: Manchester, UK

W = mg; No?

Postby Erenan » Fri Aug 01, 2003 12:19 am

Water is the only liquid that's solid form is lighter than it's liquid form


Now this is a little beside the point, I think, but I thought that it's less dense in solid form than liquid form, right? It doesn't get lighter, because the mass stays the same, and weight is derived from mass and the force of gravity. I think.
Seven Taco Button

"'The rhodes and honkies are not effective!' Cried one of the angry women, 'Prepare the twelve foot grand!'"

Erenan, Guitar Robot and Progressive Avant-Rock Jazz Metalhead Extraordinaire
User avatar
Erenan
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2003 11:48 pm
Location: Seven seconds south of your current position

Postby Rashiir » Fri Aug 01, 2003 12:23 am

Anyway, I don't think science will ever prove or disprove God. Everytime scientist think they know everything, they find out there's a whole lot more to learn. And even if science can't figure out an explanation to why things happened, some scientists will still say, "Just wait and we'll find something." If someone doesn't want to believe in God, God will let them ignore Him. Otherwise it wouldn't be truly free will.
User avatar
Rashiir
 
Posts: 961
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2003 1:28 pm
Location: California/New Haven, CT

Indeed, ivory soap does not float. Wait, does it?

Postby Erenan » Fri Aug 01, 2003 12:45 am

Yeah, that's true. Anyway, science doesn't work to disprove the existence of things. That's not what the scientific method is all about.
Seven Taco Button

"'The rhodes and honkies are not effective!' Cried one of the angry women, 'Prepare the twelve foot grand!'"

Erenan, Guitar Robot and Progressive Avant-Rock Jazz Metalhead Extraordinaire
User avatar
Erenan
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2003 11:48 pm
Location: Seven seconds south of your current position

Postby express » Fri Aug 01, 2003 1:12 am

I pretty much agree with what Psycho Ann says. The Lord God doesn't need to prove Himself to us. We are the ones that have to come back to Him.

I myself used to be a blasphemous philosopher, pretty much an agnostic who tried to tolerate everything (sexual preference, beliefs, peoples reasoning, etc.). But, just like that, the Lord revealed Himself to me, and I realized it's not about me anymore, but it's ALL about Him and only Him.

This thread has reminded me of something that has grieved me for a few days now. What has grieved me is the fact that people refuse to believe in the Lord and even His existence because...you can't SEE Him. We're in a world that teaches that "seeing is believing"...and that only, that we need proof. The world teaches to live by what you see in front of you and believe in only that because that is what is real. Here's an equation: what we see = real = truth. With this mind-set, it is impossible for anyone in this world to live by faith at all because they always need visible assurance in front of them.

In the last argument I had with my mother, she told me that she used to be radical for the Lord; before she got married, she wanted to be a nun (In the Philippines, most are Catholic). But after she majored in engineering in college, her whole way of thinking changed and she could only think like an engineer from that point on. Now she proclaims that Jesus is a way not the way to Heaven, and basically, she is like how I used to be, a blasphemous agnostic philosopher, having an ecclectic collection of good sayings, metaphysical beliefs, philosophies and pretty much her own perception of God.

Sorry to go off on a tangent like that, but it goes to show that we (all who are saved through Christ) need to be walking in faith, in the Spirit of God, and not what we see in this world. People may read this and say that I am crazy (Namely, non-believers). "How can you trust in something or somebody you can't even see? How can you believe they exist? That's crazy!!!" they might say. "You're getting brainwashed. You won't take your blinders off. Open your eyes." At least that's what I've heard from my mom and many others.

When the Fall occurred, man lost his eyes to see God, and many other things were lost, as well. And, later on, God became like a myth to man, a fantasy-like mythology, something that couldn't possibly be real. And the people of this world live this way still. What I believe is that science will never totally support Scripture because it bases it's law and "doctrine" upon visible physical observations made of this world. And who, as it says in Scripture, is the "god of this world"? Satan is. And does Satan want the people in this world to get an inch closer to God? Of course, he doesn't! He'll try to keep man blind of God for as long as he can. He'll make it seems so logical, so right. "What are you talking about? You can't see God. So, He can't exist! You can't know for sure, can you?" Satan is a master of deceit and can and will easily manipulate this world so the "observations and logic" go in his favor.

A parallel that came to my mind is this: it's just like a machine or even a robot with intelligence trying to figure out it's purpose by asking itself and looking at itself for the answer when really, if it really wanted to know why, it should turn to the person who made it, it's creator. Only it's creator knows it better than it does. And with what the Lord has taught me through revelation of His Word, it is the same with man today in this world.

It may sound that I am totally against science. However, that is absolutely false. Science interests me very much. Just like anything else, though, science can be used to glorify God, or it can't. There are of course strong believers out there who are also scientists, and as we obviously know, there are many unbelieving scientists. Though I enjoy science and appreciate science very much and what it has done for us today, I cannot let it's observations be the doctrine of my life, the god of my life. The Word has taught me to approach everything that is not of the Word of God with a discerning spirit, ANYTHING, even science.
User avatar
express
 
Posts: 98
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2003 12:09 am
Location: West Dundee, IL, USA

Postby LorentzForce » Fri Aug 01, 2003 7:16 am

ahh, how much i love science. it's ranked third in my favourites list (below God and computers respectively), and it's one of my choices for my future career. either science, or computers.

the relation of science and Christianity? simply put, both have similar goals. just that one of the cannot be finished in 'time', and the other, the book just yells out the answer.
Image
User avatar
LorentzForce
 
Posts: 1263
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2003 3:18 am
Location: Between B and E

My God & Science post

Postby Mithrandir » Fri Aug 01, 2003 7:51 am

OK. I've abandoned my previous line of thinking. I'll just put a link here to a work I did years ago on the subject. I think it's interesting reading (especially if you are into this whole subject). It represents more-or-less a 6 page college paper (double spaced, small fonts) that was never taken beyond rough draft. Needless to say it wouldn't fit into a post. Instead, those of you who want to can read it, and the rest can just skip this post.

PS: It's been edited from another work on my site, which was not entirely appropriate for this board. I've removed everything I think would be offinsive, however, so I think it's suitable for most audiences. If anyone has any problems with it, just let me know and I'll rework it.

My Science & God URL
User avatar
Mithrandir
 
Posts: 11071
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 12:00 pm
Location: You will be baked. And then there will be cake.

Postby Christianotaku » Fri Aug 01, 2003 7:55 am

is oldphilosopher a christian or not?
thats the way i see it
wesley useche aka. DJWeslo Thevidgod Christianotaku
Image

oh really hehe knives hmhm
*starts burning down the board*
User avatar
Christianotaku
 
Posts: 167
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2003 4:00 am

Postby Mithrandir » Fri Aug 01, 2003 7:57 am

Christianotaku wrote:is oldphilosopher a christian or not?


I believe so. Anyone in disagreement is welcome to take that up with the management. ;)

(Meaning God, not Ash!)
User avatar
Mithrandir
 
Posts: 11071
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 12:00 pm
Location: You will be baked. And then there will be cake.

Postby Technomancer » Fri Aug 01, 2003 9:26 am

Hi there, just got back from visiting my brother and am trying to catch up on what I've missed.

I'll say that the short answer is that science doesn't say anything about God directly. One could, according to Aquinas, infer the existence of God from observing His creation, although this would not reveal much of His character or goals. A similar attitude is taken in the Book of Wisdom (see Ch 13). It is worth noting, that the "God Hypothesis" has some currency among physicists owing to the fact, as pointed out by Ashley, that the laws of physics seem almost tailored to the existence of life (certain constants, had they been slightly different would have prevented the formation of matter, or of stars and so forth). This is obviously not definitive proof (there are several ways around it), but a good argument nonetheless.

We, and our instruments, are ultimately bound by the constraints of the physical universe. Science can ultimately only tell us about the universe as God made it (although it does a very good job), it cannot tell us what lies beyond. In the end, no matter how far in space and time we can see, we are still stuck in the same "box" that we are trying to observe. And no matter how big the box is, we can always admit that God is somewhere outside of it.

I'll recommend two things to read:
Carl Sagan's "Contact" (Don't bother with the movie, it's a gross corruption of the intent of the book)
Also I highly recommend "Fides et Ratio" by Pope John Paul II which may be found at:
Fides et Ratio
The scientific method," Thomas Henry Huxley once wrote, "is nothing but the normal working of the human mind." That is to say, when the mind is working; that is to say further, when it is engaged in corrrecting its mistakes. Taking this point of view, we may conclude that science is not physics, biology, or chemistry—is not even a "subject"—but a moral imperative drawn from a larger narrative whose purpose is to give perspective, balance, and humility to learning.

Neil Postman
(The End of Education)

Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge

Isaac Aasimov
User avatar
Technomancer
 
Posts: 2379
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:47 am
Location: Tralfamadore

Postby Rashiir » Fri Aug 01, 2003 9:35 am

That is a good essay, ese.
User avatar
Rashiir
 
Posts: 961
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2003 1:28 pm
Location: California/New Haven, CT

Postby Psycho Ann » Fri Aug 01, 2003 10:20 am

It's a wonderful essay Oldphil, always nice to read on of these things XD
-Psalm 27:1-
The Project - Online Christian manga, rambling FAQs, and Truly Random Scripture.
Cognatio- Online Christian Manga Exchange

"MOES. I can has Sane Sig now?"
User avatar
Psycho Ann
 
Posts: 669
Joined: Sat May 31, 2003 6:12 pm
Location: Fremont, USA

Postby Gypsy » Fri Aug 01, 2003 1:32 pm

I love this sort of study. Has anyone else listened to Chuck Missler? Some of his stuff seems a little out there, but I find his teachings on this subject completely fascinating. Dr. Ken Hovind is also another good authority on modern science and the existence of God.

And that essay was very good. I'm going to print it out so I can read it in depth later.
||Skipping Tomorrows Webmanga||
"A ship in harbor is safe but that is not what ships are built for." - John A. Shedd
User avatar
Gypsy
 
Posts: 4056
Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 12:00 pm
Location: Hyrule

Postby EireWolf » Fri Aug 01, 2003 1:44 pm

Christianotaku wrote:is oldphilosopher a christian or not?


Hmmmm... You may want to read what the man wrote before you ask such questions next time. :thumb:
User avatar
EireWolf
 
Posts: 2496
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 12:00 pm
Location: the forests of northern California

Postby Christianotaku » Fri Aug 01, 2003 1:47 pm

sorry i took your thread wrongly .......
thats the way i see it
wesley useche aka. DJWeslo Thevidgod Christianotaku
Image

oh really hehe knives hmhm
*starts burning down the board*
User avatar
Christianotaku
 
Posts: 167
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2003 4:00 am

Postby express » Fri Aug 01, 2003 2:54 pm

The question of proving God with science is moot, to me, as God doesn't exist within science


I very much agree with this statement.

You could say science either exists because of chance or God. You take a pick as to which you will believe.


This reminds me of how I used to think, that it was all by chance. But of course now I see that I couldn't possibly heed to such reasoning. Also, it reminded me of a sort of "argument" that my AP Chemistry teacher and a fellow classmate of mine were having about evolution and the recent "Intelligent Design" theory (the counter-Darwin argument). It stemmed from our class study on Organic Chemistry. My teacher was a Christian and defended the "Intelligent Design" theory and my classmate was the opposite. It was very hard to sit and listen to that argument. I ended up just praying in the classroom for the both of them. I never like arguments, but I realize now, if I have to, I will uphold the Gospel even if it turns into an argument.
User avatar
express
 
Posts: 98
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2003 12:09 am
Location: West Dundee, IL, USA

Postby madphilb » Sat Aug 02, 2003 3:34 pm

Psycho Ann wrote:My dad's has a Ph.D in physics and I love physics too. We're both devoted believers and I honestly can't find anything that directly refutes the existance of God. And why does the Bible doesn't have so many scientific facts for God to prove Himself?


Actually there are quite a few things in the Bible (including the reasons for many of the instructions he gave to Moses for the people) that are science based (and way outside the knowledge and technology of the time).

However I'm sketchy on the details right now (not wanting to get them wrong)... brain fried from the heat and a long week at work.... and I can't find the book that has the info in...
sigh You would think that after 2+ years here I would have all my books in one place :sweat:

I know that one of the references in in the Psalms (or some other such OT book) that makes reference to the earth being a sphere, way before anyone else talked of such things.

One thing that you will run into, just as scientists can't always seem to agree on things, neither do the creation scientists always agree...

And on a final note, I'll leave you with the words of one of the most respected scientists of all time:
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- Albert Einstein


PHIL
User avatar
madphilb
 
Posts: 1057
Joined: Thu May 29, 2003 1:46 pm
Location: Sunny St. Pete, FL

Postby MasterDias » Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:45 pm

madphilb wrote:Actually there are quite a few things in the Bible (including the reasons for many of the instructions he gave to Moses for the people) that are science based (and way outside the knowledge and technology of the time).


That makes an interesting study actually. Although some of those rules might seem harsh by todays standards, they greatly helped the Israelites back then. A lot of them were based on scientific principles and laws.
-----------------------------------------
"Always seek to do good to one another and to all."
1 Thessalonians 5:15

"Every story must have an ending." - Auron - Final Fantasy X

"A small stone may make a ripple at first, but someday it will be a wave." - Wiegraf - Final Fantasy Tactics
User avatar
MasterDias
 
Posts: 2714
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 4:56 pm
Location: Texas

Postby Rashiir » Sat Aug 02, 2003 7:30 pm

Yah like "Don't eat the pigs because they have horrible diseases if you don't raise them right or don't cook them well enough."
"Be joyful always." - 1 Thes 5:16
User avatar
Rashiir
 
Posts: 961
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2003 1:28 pm
Location: California/New Haven, CT

Postby madphilb » Sat Aug 02, 2003 8:46 pm

Also, cleansing in RUNNING water (meanwhile hundreds and thousands died in hospitals in the past 200 years, or so, because they didn't "get it").

I'll have to see if I can hunt down that book... can't remember who wrote it...

PHIL
User avatar
madphilb
 
Posts: 1057
Joined: Thu May 29, 2003 1:46 pm
Location: Sunny St. Pete, FL

Postby Technomancer » Sat Aug 02, 2003 9:08 pm

I hate to be a killjoy but I don't think that the practical rules in the Bible are strong evidence of "extra" info. Various cultures around the globe developed similar rules based on practical observations. You don't need to understand the germ theory of disease for example to recognize that people get sick after drinking stagnant water, or eating uncooked pork. Additionaly, at the time these books were written there were a number of cultures far more materially and technically advanced than the ancient Hebrews. For example, the Sumerians and Akkadians, the Egyptians, Phonecians, Harappans, Chinese, etc.

Making such arguments also ignores the fact that the ancient Hebrews were nowhere on the map as far as mathematics, the sciences, the arts, etc were concerned.
The scientific method," Thomas Henry Huxley once wrote, "is nothing but the normal working of the human mind." That is to say, when the mind is working; that is to say further, when it is engaged in corrrecting its mistakes. Taking this point of view, we may conclude that science is not physics, biology, or chemistry—is not even a "subject"—but a moral imperative drawn from a larger narrative whose purpose is to give perspective, balance, and humility to learning.

Neil Postman
(The End of Education)

Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge

Isaac Aasimov
User avatar
Technomancer
 
Posts: 2379
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:47 am
Location: Tralfamadore

Postby Ashley » Sat Aug 02, 2003 9:28 pm

No, but it shows God cared about His people and wanted what was best for them. It was always my interpretation that the Hebrews were far from the best, or the brightest, or the strongest---wasn't that God's intention?--but these laws not only established a relationship between God and his people, but it showed that on a pratical level, He cared about them much the same way a father/mother teaches their child to wash their hands and cover their mouths, etc.
Image
User avatar
Ashley
 
Posts: 7364
Joined: Mon May 26, 2003 10:00 am
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Postby Rashiir » Sat Aug 02, 2003 11:28 pm

Plus He wanted them to survive. Where are the Sumerians and the Akkadians today? ;)
"Be joyful always." - 1 Thes 5:16
User avatar
Rashiir
 
Posts: 961
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2003 1:28 pm
Location: California/New Haven, CT

Next

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 142 guests