Looking for a bit of feedback on an idea - Skies of Aer

[Destroyer2000]

Thanks for the comments and feedback; while I see your point about him being a Casanova, it was meant as a lighthearted moment. Also, the girl fainted from fear, no other reason. I understand that there are flaws, and that the character may, in some way, reflect a few stereotypes. I intend to do away with as much run-of-the-mill work as possible.

I do appreciate the feedback, so long as it is constructive. Don't get me wrong. Writers must be thick skinned, because if critiques are harsh, then editors and publishers are many thousand times worse. Sometimes it is difficult to see our own flaws, and even moreso to admit them, so if I happen to respond in a way that sounds abrasive, I apologize. I do take into account what is said, and seek ways to improve. So, thanks.

Next part coming soon, I hope.

[acgifford]

I agree with you Nami. The part about looking beyond the outer layer. I totaly agree with that. The thing that i think destroyer is doing well with so far is his characterization. I know some may disagree with me, but i feel that he is fleshing the character out quite well! I am quite enjoying the story and look foward to more!

[Esoteric]

XD I think you all are being a little harsh. Though some of your words are true. It's actually all about his character. Sure there is room for improvement, but isn't that the case with everything? Keeping in mind that this IS HIS FIRST DRAFT. Just, remember that first drafts get edited A LOT.

I agree that I can be harsh sometimes, but I do try to be conscious of it so as not sound too mean. I'm used to seeing writing much more polished than first drafts get ripped to shreds by professionals, so if I'm honest about problems early on, it may save some real grief later on when a whole novel must be rewritten.

I like Van's cocky and fearless attitude. He is assured that if he gets caught, he will get away. He doesn't fear the people he robs, as no thief should.

I disagree. Pride cometh before the fall and the minute you stop respecting something's ability to hurt you, you get bit by it. Any smart thief is always looking over their shoulder. Sure thieves take risks. They can have self assurance, even a bit of a cocky flare after they've gone uncaught for a long time, but as soon as they think they're untouchable, they're just asking for it.

And I see Destroyer going against the usual "I'm dark, sneaky and evil." Stereotype that goes with thieves and rogues. I mean, look at Flynn from Tangled! Totally cocky, and pretty fearless.

The dashing cavalier is also a stereotype though. And Tangled was intended to be a comedy with lots of exaggerated slapstick. I don't think this was meant to be a comedy, but it does depend on what Destroyer intends. And I didn't say Van needed to be dark or evil, but he does need to act like a thief. Stealing is a crime even if you're stealing from a mean person. Thieves have to be careful--or they get caught.

So why not? I mean, isn't writing about making your own life? World? Having the ability to create something beautiful?

Again, it depends on what is intended. If you're just writing for yourself and a few friends, sure you can write whatever, however you like. But if you want a shot at getting published, you have to be good, real good, better than good. You have to be able to tell a story--and believe it or not that's incredibly difficult to do well. I always assume someone hopes at publication, so I apologize if I've been overly critical of hobby writing.

Besides, Van is also caring, though a ladies man of sorts, he is kind and is thinking about people he doesn't even know (kids, poor people etc.) He hates these people, thus, he doesn't fear them. Looking beyond the outer-layer of a character is part of the process, if you can't see the deep inner-seed then you'll have a hard time with people too, much less fiction. ^^

I don't have a problem with him caring about women and children although this does push him more toward the Zorro, Robin Hood Scarlet Pimpernel stereotype. The question then I suppose is why does he rob? Does he rob to feed those children? To feed himself? To hurt the wealthy? He can have a number of reasons, but one should take precedent and shape his actions the most.

Again, I'm sorry if I've stepped on toes. I do wish you luck with the project.

[Destroyer2000]

Thanks. What suggestions would you have for this tale, then? I do intend to get published. This isn't meant to be a dark, gritty story, but a sort of fantasy/adventure story. Yes, there will be dark moments. But I've constructed the world, the environment in which the story takes place, well enough that I should be able to get several stories out of this one world alone.

I'll admit I don't have everything worked out, and I'm playing it a bit as I go. I still don't have a central, over-reaching story to hold everything together. As it stands, Van's backstory allows him to be the character he is. Raised in a wealthy home, but ran away to escape an arranged marriage. He's not hardened and cold from life on the streets; he knows the dark and the light, the elements of both worlds.

[Nami]

I agree that I can be harsh sometimes, but I do try to be conscious of it so as not sound too mean. I'm used to seeing writing much more polished than first drafts get ripped to shreds by professionals, so if I'm honest about problems early on, it may save some real grief later on when a whole novel must be rewritten.

Honesty is always best indeed. However, to say that the problems in a first draft could cause the story to be completely rewritten is exaggeration. Unless the writer cannot stand anything in the story, I doubt they would start anew. And in my honest opinion, if an editor/publisher doesn't like it, I would never change my work just to please those people. I'd like advice, but if they reject it without giving any and their advice is]I disagree. Pride cometh before the fall and the minute you stop respecting something's ability to hurt you, you get bit by it. Any smart thief is always looking over their shoulder. Sure thieves take risks. They can have self assurance, even a bit of a cocky flare after they've gone uncaught for a long time, but as soon as they think they're untouchable, they're just asking for it. [/QUOTE]

Now you are setting up a stereotype for a character that doesn't belong to you. And you talk as if you know all about thieves. Not all thieves are the same, and to think that every thief would be as cautious as the other is a rather silly notion. Though true in most cases, if other people want to write their characters differently from the usual stereotypes, isn't that their choice? Also, stereotypes are hard to avoid. Instead of saying; "oh this character is so cliche!" Try looking at the story the character is in, its bound to be different from any of the others, and that's what is really important. It's the element that surrounds the character, the world, the people. Looking at Final Fantasy, I see many stereotypes, yet they are different because they are put into a different setting, thus they lose their cliche stereotypical nature.

The dashing cavalier is also a stereotype though. And Tangled was intended to be a comedy with lots of exaggerated slapstick. I don't think this was meant to be a comedy, but it does depend on what Destroyer intends. And I didn't say Van needed to be dark or evil, but he does need to act like a thief. Stealing is a crime even if you're stealing from a mean person. Thieves have to be careful--or they get caught.

Certainly it is, but a rather unseen one. Besides, mixing elements is something a writer should do. And comedy comes in any book, or rather I think it should. Because when books get too serious (at least for me) I get bored. Humor, certainly takes the edge off. He is being careful, but not as careful as most thieves. Of course, this is Destroyer's story, but I think you are setting him up to change his characters to the way you see fit. Instead of looking at it from his perspective.

Again, it depends on what is intended. If you're just writing for yourself and a few friends, sure you can write whatever, however you like. But if you want a shot at getting published, you have to be good, real good, better than good. You have to be able to tell a story--and believe it or not that's incredibly difficult to do well. I always assume someone hopes at publication, so I apologize if I've been overly critical of hobby writing.

I disagree. Even if you aren't writing for just your friends, writing whatever you want is the freedom of choice ALL authors have. I really don't think many authors set out with the idea that EVERYONE in the world will like their book. Certainly, they hope people will like it. But to write it for everyone else? That's silly, and many, many, many authors falls into that pit and never dig themselves out. Trying to please everyone will only end up giving the writer grief. I believe in writing freely and doing what you want with the characters, because like it or not; They Are The Writer's.

I don't have a problem with him caring about women and children although this does push him more toward the Zorro, Robin Hood Scarlet Pimpernel stereotype. The question then I suppose is why does he rob? Does he rob to feed those children? To feed himself? To hurt the wealthy? He can have a number of reasons, but one should take precedent and shape his actions the most.

Again, I'm sorry if I've stepped on toes. I do wish you luck with the project.

Caring about them has nothing to really do with saving them, he just hates the idea of that. If the opportunity arises for him to help, I'm certain he would. And at the moment, why should he have a reason? Some thieves steal, just to steal. And for no other reason. I agree that one should take precedent, however, lots of authors don't know the destination of their own stories/characters, and to me, those are the best books of all. They practically write themselves.

Instead of writing the characters, you are writing about them. When characters come to life, they take wings of their own. If you can't imagine them as real people, you are doomed from the start. Of course, that is only my opinion. I am a dreamer, a writer and I don't much care if everyone likes or dislikes my writing because I write for God, not for people. And even if only one person read it, that would be enough.

Stepping on toes will happen, its how you mold as a person by speaking though, that makes the difference. Kindness and critique go hand-in-hand. Harsh critique usually gets harsh replies.

[Esoteric]

Now you are setting up a stereotype for a character that doesn't belong to you. And you talk as if you know all about thieves.

…You’re right. I should be looking at this from the other direction. In which case, the problem isn’t a lack of caution, but a lack of information. Here’s what we are given:

Van is alone.
Van doesn’t appear to be armed.
Van is breaking into the mansion of a powerful man who has no scruples about violence.

Can we agree that the average sane person would be uncomfortable in such a situation? But Van isn’t worried—he’s having fun, so I don’t understand. It isn’t about knowing thieves inside and out (which none of us do) it’s about recognizing the typical responses and patterns in human behavior. It's pretty typical for a person in a risky situation to be concerned.

But Van isn’t concerned, so why not?—we’re missing the explanation. Does he have a weapon (which he isn’t afraid to use)? Does he have backup he can call in? Does he have an invisibility cloak? Has he literally robbed a bazillion people like Edwards before so he has supreme confidence? Any of these explanations would explain his behavior, although I caution you on the last one. If he’s just overly confident, the reader is going to be waiting for things to backfire--and if they don’t will be disappointed.

And in my honest opinion, if an editor/publisher doesn't like it, I would never change my work just to please those people.

Even if their suggestions make your story better? They aren’t going to try to ruin your book. If they buy your manuscript, they’ll want it to succeed as much as you do.

[Kerusso]

know this is pretty late, but may I say, Destroyer, that I had NO intention of insulting your writing skills.