The... Mathematics of Beauty?

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Edit: I've come across this and I think this is a very interesting study.

A forewarning: This is NOT genuine scientific research! This is just the findings of a guy who runs the okcupid online dating site. Everything here isn't proven to be true, but just trends that the author has noticed. I'm sure there are plenty of criticisms that can be brought up here. But please... I doubt he's a bona fide statistician or a researcher.

So the author will show us that:




Read it! http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-mathematics-of-beauty/

[Nate]

Um...

You know, if the problem is self-esteem, saying "You know, it's actually kind of a GOOD thing you're ugly!" isn't going to help, since that's flat-out saying "You're ugly."

People don't like to feel ugly, and saying "But wait, being ugly is a GOOD thing!" isn't really a helpful response, and doesn't do anything for self-esteem.

[Atria35]

I've heard about this. It's not as simple as that.

Basically, it's game theory when it comes to girl's looks.

The more controvery about whether she was pretty (It was about half and half on whether she was actually pretty), the more guys thought they'd have less competition when they asked her out. And more guys asked the girl out.

If everyone thought she was either pretty or just cute, the more competition there was percieved to be, since guys who just thought she was cute might also send a date invite. So they thought they'd have a lesser chance of actually getting a date.

It's not that they're ugly! It's that the girls don't exactly match what people would normally percieve as beauty.

[Yuki-Anne]

Um...

You know, if the problem is self-esteem, saying "You know, it's actually kind of a GOOD thing you're ugly!" isn't going to help, since that's flat-out saying "You're ugly."

People don't like to feel ugly, and saying "But wait, being ugly is a GOOD thing!" isn't really a helpful response, and doesn't do anything for self-esteem.

This is a no-win situation, because the girls who've never been called ugly in their lives may suddenly start to think, "Well, dang, I've been at a disadvantage this whole time and I didn't even know it! I wish I was uglier. "

And then nobody's happy.

[ADXC]

Honestly, I prefer the line "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."


God made us all different and unique and we are all beautiful in His eyes.

Why should we be concerning ourselves with the Earth's temporal, corrupt view of beauty than God's eternal, perfect view?

[Kaori]

I’ve seen this before. You have to read down to the part where the writer uses game theory hypothesize about why women with more deviation in their ratings get messaged more often than those with little deviation in their ratings, even if their average rating is the same (cf. the four-box chart with Garfield in the lower right). Basically what it boils down to, according to the writer’s theory, is that men think they have a better chance with a woman considered attractive by some people and unattractive by others (thinking less people will be interested in her) than they would with a woman who is universally considered to be cute.

So, no offense, but I don’t think that a careful reading of this article is really likely to boost anyone’s self-esteem, because the real meaning behind those highlighted sentences is, “Guys will hit on a girl more if they think other guys won’t.”

Very interesting read, though.

EDIT: Atria already said this; I just missed that post for some reason.

[Seto_Sora]

OK, that article was weird. I suppose I can't say much as I got both creeped out and bored with the article before finishing it. I did just want to quick say that I totally agree with ADXC. I've always seen it as beauty is relative. And vise versa as well. For instance, the women I'm attracted to are never universally seen as gorgeous and yet the women who are seen as such I tend to think are horribly ugly.
And this whole game theory... I think its stupid. However, think about this, all of this is coming from one single dating website. What is my impression of single sites? Well, I haven't seen one that doesn't give me the impression its all about desperation and low self-esteem. So lets just suppose that is the case for a moment, then wouldn't that mean these statistics only apply to a certain demographic and can't be held as universally true? (we are just supposing here, I'm not actually saying everyone on singles site has these things or deals with these things) And what about the superficiality of dating sites? Wouldn't the superficiality of the individuals thereon translate into this cold poll? I dunno, I feel its kinda being unfair to women and giving them bad advice.

SDG

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Hmm.. I guess I haven't really thought that through too well. I'm really sorry about that. I guess that was premature of me to presume.

I guess the way I saw it simply was like "if someone sees me as unattractive, then it's plausible to think that someone else would find me very attractive." That's how I internalize it, anyway and it seems to be a mistake that others would think similarly. Sorry!

[UniqueAngelStar]

Honestly, I prefer the line "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."


God made us all different and unique and we are all beautiful in His eyes.

Why should we be concerning ourselves with the Earth's temporal, corrupt view of beauty than God's eternal, perfect view?

Agreed 100%

It's sad that everybody is so vain in things, such as beauty and looks.
People just stress themselves on physical appearances for no reason.
It about the person inside of us. That's where the true love in relationships count.

Beauty is skin deep...

[aliveinHim]

Beauty is subjective. The inside doesn't lie if someone is truly beautiful.

[Yamamaya]

I've read that article before, but it's less about girls being proclaimed ugly and more about how girls that guys disagree on whether they're attractice or not tend to get more attention.

Beauty is pretty subjective anyway.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Well, I think some people are misunderstanding the article. The point of the article is not trying to define beauty or anything. Nor is it talking about sustained relationships of any sort. It's just talking about physical attraction. And while some people may say that beauty is only skin deep, the fact of the matter is that ladies, you're more likely (e.g. statistically) to find Hugh Jackman or Christian Bale more physically attractive compared to like... Christopher Walken or someone. I don't think we're so removed from a desire of physical attractiveness as we say we are. Yes beauty is subjective, but there are noticeable trends that this author is seeing. And while you may have absolutely different standards for beauty (I know I tend to), please don't automatically assume that the people counted in the article are not individuals too.

Furthermore, the author is simply point out a statistical trend. Meaning he is not saying that this is universally true OR is he or she saying that Game Theory is the correct answer. It's only his or her theory which he is using to try and connect a number of correlational variables: Attraction and number of messages received (i.e. attention given). Also, the author is pointing out that the more low-ratings a woman gets on this particular website, the more likely she is also to get high ratings as well, which thus averages her out to another woman who may be seen as "7 across the board". There are no definites in statistics. Just trends which may -- depending on a variety of numbers and other variables -- be applicable to a larger pool of people (e.g. Americans).

It's all just correlation, people. Remember: Correlation does not equal causation. Please read the forewarning I mentioned in the OP. Again it's not bona fide statistical or scientific research and published material. Even if it were the researcher would most likely already be aware of his or her own shortcomings, such as it's just on a particular website for singles, etc. The article has nothing to do with how you feel about beauty or what kind of partner you want in life or anything.

[goldenspines]

This will probably come as a shock, but I agree with Ryan's assessment of the article.

Additionally, it seems like the article is surveying the psychology of how people (men in this case) think and react when it comes to other people's comments on the appearance of a woman. One example (if I'm reading things correctly) would be if one or two guys think/say a girl is ugly, but the third dude thinks she looks pretty; the third dude will be more likely to message her since he thinks he has a chance to make a good impression (this is on an online dating site, after all). And who knows, maybe they have similar interests and will hit it off?
While an online dating site probably doesn't represent the society as a whole, it's still is an interesting study.

I think the last paragraph was kind of lame though. XD The article fails as a self esteem booster, but is nicely thought out as a statistical study.


Disclaimer: Just so no one misunderstands and thinks for some reason I care about outward appearances. God sees us all as equally beautiful, so it doesn't matter what others think about your outward appearance.
This article doesn't seem to challenging that, though. Granted, it does make a lame attempt to boost self esteem, but I didn't really pay attention to that. XD;;

[Makachop^^128]

It all makes sense to me....also seems if a girl that is "ugly" Guys might look at her more to see what is beautiful about her sense some guys might think shes beautiful, it seems like they'd get more interested in the girl. I don't know I'm not a guy lol

[Yuki-Anne]

And while some people may say that beauty is only skin deep, the fact of the matter is that ladies, you're more likely (e.g. statistically) to find Hugh Jackman or Christian Bale more physically attractive compared to like... Christopher Walken or someone.

I wish I was awesome enough to be able to contradict you and say that I totally found Christopher Walken more attractive.

PS Jackie Chan trumps all. Discuss.

Also, I don't think it's demeaning; it's interesting to read stuff like this, at least for me. What I would like to know is the additional factor of the guys' own perceived attractiveness. If a guy thought of himself as a 7, would he be more likely to go for an 8 or a 9 than a guy who thinks of himself as a 3?

[Yamamaya]

[quote="goldenspines (post: 1473021)"]This will probably come as a shock, but I agree with Ryan's assessment of the article.

Additionally, it seems like the article is surveying the psychology of how people (men in this case) think and react when it comes to other people's comments on the appearance of a woman. One example (if I'm reading things correctly) would be if one or two guys think/say a girl is ugly, but the third dude thinks she looks pretty]

I'm not disputing that claim at all. In fact it's a common trend among guys. If I hear a guy dissing a girl's looks and I find that girl attractive, I'll be more likely to go for her than if a whole bunch of guys were praising her looks I'd be less likely to go for her.

What I was saying is that this article isn't really a self esteem booster for girls who think they are ugly or are considered ugly by others.

Also I don't see what's so attractive about Jackie Chan. Sure he's awesome. But then again I'm not a girl or a homosexual male.

[Atria35]

Also I don't see what's so attractive about Jackie Chan. Sure he's awesome. But then again I'm not a girl or a homosexual male.

Abs of steel, gorgeous hair, and a sense of humor.

Of course, I totally admit that I also crush on Alton Brown and John Stewart. I would date them any day of the week.

[goldenspines]

What I was saying is that this article isn't really a self esteem booster for girls who think they are ugly or are considered ugly by others.

And I agree with this.


Also, I have no opinion concerning Jackie Chan's looks. But he did help create this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CCciATqpQ0
So, there you go.

[Makachop^^128]

Jackie Chan scares me.....blah, I know its a old actor but....I like Jimmy Stewart and
viggo mortensen ><

Anyway, I wouldn't say the article is bad for women....in fact I think it kinda gives hope, idk at least for me. They were talking bout if you think you have something that isn't good play it up, I kinda like that because something we might find ugly someone else might find beautiful.

[Yamamaya]

Abs of steel, gorgeous hair, and a sense of humor.

Of course, I totally admit that I also crush on Alton Brown and John Stewart. I would date them any day of the week.

What is with this obsession with abs? I've never understood it.

John Stewart is the man.

However, Stephen Colbert is the epitome of sexy.



@Makachop. Pshhh, you're beautiful girl.

[Darth_Kirby]

I go with the philosophy that C.S. Lewis prescribed to.
1: there is beauty that undeniable, that everyone agrees is beautiful.
2: there is subjective beauty, beauty based on tastes.
3: in the end beauty is not something that can be calculated. It is something more transcendant, though there is beauty in mathematics as well.

[Yuki-Anne]

This would be a totally (in)appropriate place for someone to link to Sir-Mix-a-Lot.

[ABlipinTime]

I'm kinda surprised no one mentioned possible embarrassment on the guy's part as being the reason he might not send the message. But then again, I don't know anything about people on singles websites.

Beauty is one of those funny things. Something can be beautiful one morning and the next morning be the ugliest thing in the world. Just ask certain divorced couples. (or a post-modern artist, hahaha)

[Nate]

there is beauty that undeniable, that everyone agrees is beautiful.

I don't agree with this one. I don't think there is anything at all that every single individual can agree is beautiful. If for no other reason than cultural divides. You could maybe get everyone of a specific culture to find something beautiful (even though I don't think you could even do that, but let's just say for the sake of argument you could), but once you start bringing in people from different countries, from different races, who grew up in different places with different backgrounds, it's foolish and absurd to even hold on to the notion that something can be objectively beautiful to every single individual.

This would be a totally (in)appropriate place for someone to link to Sir-Mix-a-Lot.

I feel like I'm the only person who listens to this song unironically.

[Syreth]

I don't agree with this one. I don't think there is anything at all that every single individual can agree is beautiful. If for no other reason than cultural divides. You could maybe get everyone of a specific culture to find something beautiful (even though I don't think you could even do that, but let's just say for the sake of argument you could), but once you start bringing in people from different countries, from different races, who grew up in different places with different backgrounds, it's foolish and absurd to even hold on to the notion that something can be objectively beautiful to every single individual.

Actually, that's not quite true - especially when it comes to physical attraction. This is one published paper among many that has shown that there are physical qualities that have been evaluated with high agreement among raters, even across different cultures. Granted, not everyone agrees all of the time, but the idea that our tastes differ so dramatically from one another in regard to all kinds of beauty is a bit off the mark, in my opinion.

[Darth_Kirby]

I don't agree with this one. I don't think there is anything at all that every single individual can agree is beautiful. If for no other reason than cultural divides. You could maybe get everyone of a specific culture to find something beautiful (even though I don't think you could even do that, but let's just say for the sake of argument you could), but once you start bringing in people from different countries, from different races, who grew up in different places with different backgrounds, it's foolish and absurd to even hold on to the notion that something can be objectively beautiful to every single individual.

really? You don't think that everyone would agree that sunsets are beautiful? Or rainbows, oceans, mountains, etc?

[Yuki-Anne]

Oh, now you're just trolling.

[mechana2015]

I heard these before, when I was having a discussion of OK Cupid, and I more or less agree with Goldie, and the people that have pointed out that it's not a very morale boosting article.

really? You don't think that everyone would agree that sunsets are beautiful? Or rainbows, oceans, mountains, etc?

Nope. That's all a matter of taste. Some people hate the ocean, even though they see it every day, and for some people it freaks them out, just because of it's size. Rainbows don't impress some people, especially if they live in a particularly rainy area and see them every day. All of those things are subjective and not universally proven to have the same response. Heck, a blind person couldn't appreciate any of those things you named, and many years ago sunset was a reason for fear, not awe, and some areas of the world still is. It is more likely that Lewis is not referring to any sort of physical concept when he talks about undeniable beauty, but something related to spiritual or divine things.

In the case of physical attraction, which is what the article is about, opinions can differ greatly, and you don't have to pull people together from across oceans to view it. My and one of my roommates have TOTALLY different preferences. It's not good or bad, but we just have different preferences, and I'm pretty sure we would disagree severely on many aspects of what makes an attractive woman.

I personally do not like the sort of ranking system that this implies that OKCupid uses, since I think that even if there is this sort of 'bias' out there, it's counterproductive to announce to the world which person is more or less 'attractive' to a larger amount of people, and could lead to some odd backlash.

That being said, let's please refrain from being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative to the detriment of the thread's original topic.

[Nekomimi]

I love in-house surveys/findings, they're pretty funny, especially from dating sites But that's just me, I guess. I thought at first they'd be talking about the Golden Mean as it applies to facial features or something...