Let's stop supporting <illegal streaming site> and others like it

The real heart of CAA; discuss specific series, issues, and things related to anime here.

Postby Fish and Chips » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:52 am

blkmage (post: 1450028) wrote:To be honest, I was pretty surprised to learn that people actually rely on streaming sites to watch shows in general, since 13 times out of 10, the video quality is on par with 240p RMVBs from ten years ago.

I'll stick with H264 MKVs, thanks.
I stream practically everything I don't watch on DVD or television.

This is partially because I find it more convenient, but chiefly because torrents hate me and so does my download speed and they both know where I live.
rocklobster (post: 1450316) wrote:The real problem is that illegal streaming has already led to the death of two anime distributors, one of which I liked. True, some of Geneon's titles have been picked up by FUNimation and other companies, but it's still sad.
[SIZE="1"][[color="DeepSkyBlue"]citation needed[/color]][/SIZE]
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Postby Atria35 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:48 am

This is also a regional issue, though- if you live in Iceland, or Sweden, or Brazil, then you don't have access to most of the legal streaming videos because the anime isn't licensed in those countries. There really isn't any recourse except to view them on the illegal streaming sites.
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Postby Shao Feng-Li » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:58 am

rocklobster (post: 1449968) wrote:I think we should all stop supporting <modsnip> and other illegally streaming anime sites. Why? Because that'll stop their existence. Besides, it's not necessary to watch those sites anyway. Crunchyroll, Hulu, and Youtube all have legally available anime for you to watch, and a pretty impressive selection too. Oh, and did I mention it's also unedited. Yes, you have to sit through ads, but it's a small price to pay. Besides, every time I looked at <modsnip>, my computer got infected with a virus: yet another reason. Hulu and etc won't infect your computer.


I use torrents.

Really though, I haven't even watched an anime in... years now. I need to get over to Hulu and finish Samurai 7.
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Postby blkmage » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:22 am

Atria35 (post: 1450338) wrote:This is also a regional issue, though- if you live in Iceland, or Sweden, or Brazil, then you don't have access to most of the legal streaming videos because the anime isn't licensed in those countries. There really isn't any recourse except to view them on the illegal streaming sites.

/r/ Fish's long and diverse list of all the legal anime he can watch so he doesn't have to use illegal streaming sites
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Postby Fish and Chips » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:27 am

blkmage (post: 1450351) wrote:/r/ Fish's long and diverse list of all the legal anime he can watch so he doesn't have to use illegal streaming sites
I didn't actually save that you know.

When your best available option is Gonzo, it's time to reexamine your circumstances.
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Postby Roy Mustang » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:36 am

rocklobster wrote:The real problem is that illegal streaming has already led to the death of two anime distributors, one of which I liked. True, some of Geneon's titles have been picked up by FUNimation and other companies, but it's still sad.



Uh.... If the other one was ADV, I can tell the story of why they went under and it wasn't because of illegal streaming sites, but a bad business deal with a company from Japan.


The parent comany from Japan pulled the plug on Geneon USA. They wanted to lience anime to North American, but they did not want to have their own distributor company anymore and they closed the doors on Geneon USA as they sign arrangement to other North American anime distributors to dub it and be the distributor. So they are just concacting it out now and they saving a lot of money by having other North American studios do the work.

This business plan had nothing to do with illegal streaming sites, but from the parent company in Japan in closing the doors to their USA studio to make more money by concacting it out to North American stuidos.


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Postby blkmage » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:46 am

Fish and Chips (post: 1450353) wrote:I didn't actually save that you know.

When your best available option is Gonzo, it's time to reexamine your circumstances.

I was hoping, because I didn't have the foresight to save it either :<

Anyway, Roy touched on why ADV and Geneon closed shop, but even beyond that, the timing doesn't quite match up for streaming sites specifically to have played any major role in any collapse.
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Postby TWWK » Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:04 am

KeybladeWarrior (post: 1450274) wrote:Toradora is out, but it is rare. The only online-store that I have seen it is Robert's Anime Corner store.


I wouldn't say it's rare - I bought both volumes for very good prices at Rightstuf. They had a sale for each...but their "sale," I think, has been going on from prerelease right through the holidays.
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Postby Nate » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:48 pm

rocklobster wrote:The real problem is that illegal streaming has already led to the death of two anime distributors

Yeah I don't believe that at all. If you can provide hard evidence I'd like to see it. And "Lots of illegal streaming sites were showing their anime and then they shut down!" isn't hard evidence.
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Postby ShiroiHikari » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:57 pm

Illegal DOWNLOADING maybe. Illegal streaming? Not really. Also don't forget the very important fact that ADV licensed every piece of crap show that came down the pike and then expected to turn a profit. Stupid business decisions + bad economy = failed business.
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Postby Tsukuyomi » Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:03 pm

*Sigh* Most of the series (if not all) I do watch are usually on Youtube's Funi channel. Which, do have perms to have them up, but still some are still unpleased.. I guess "ah well" to them ^__^ Go find your battle with someone else xP
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Postby MasterDias » Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:12 pm

It wasn't really just that they licensed everything, they also dubbed everything as well, and Geneon sold virtually everything at a premium price. All this came back to hurt them when the bubble burst.

ADV Films might be technically dead on paper, but they aren't actually dead in reality. They just morphed into Sentai Filmworks/Section 23/whatever they call themselves now and are more careful in what they license and dub. Also, apparently the costs of licenses have fallen considerably in Japan so that helps.
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Postby MomentOfInertia » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:19 pm

I think the biggest part of the problem is exposure.

A few months ago I decided to watch an anime online, some people had recommended it.

So I go to Google and enter "watch _____" and the first page is all illegal sites, and checking now, its half way down the second page that youtube even shows up.
I eventually spent 30 minutes digging up Rock's 'guide to legal anime' thread and going to crunchy roll.

My point is that people are lazy, and if the first result they get is an illegal site they probably won't look any further. though I bereave if people could find a legit site to watch on they would be willing to put up with the ads. The problem is that nobody is finding the legal sites. so the illegal sites will continue for as long as they lead the search results.

Just my two cents
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Postby Mr. Hat'n'Clogs » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:23 pm

MomentOfInertia (post: 1450468) wrote:I think the biggest part of the problem is exposure.

A few months ago I decided to watch an anime online, some people had recommended it.

So I go to Google and enter "watch _____" and the first page is all illegal sites, and checking now, its half way down the second page that youtube even shows up.
I eventually spent 30 minutes digging up Rock's 'guide to legal anime' thread and going to crunchy roll.

My point is that people are lazy, and if the first result they get is an illegal site they probably won't look any further. though I bereave if people could find a legit site to watch on they would be willing to put up with the ads. The problem is that nobody is finding the legal sites. so the illegal sites will continue for as long as they lead the search results.

Just my two cents
That's kind of how I was for a while, until I started to learn more and felt bad for my illegal activity that could be avoided with me still watching the show. The first anime I watched was on Myspace(yeah, I know), and when I tried to find more, I found a site that had pretty much any show I might want, so, not really thinking of it as illegal, I watched and watched for quite a while.
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Postby MightiMidget » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:52 pm

When I first started watching anime, I honestly had no idea that there were legal sources to watch it. The person who introduced me through her DVDs, and then gave me the link to an online streaming site, so...pretty much no clue. It's only been semi-recently that I realized there was anime on Hulu, netflix and crunchyroll.
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Postby rocklobster » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:06 pm

Quoted for Truth: For every person out there who wants to do the right thing, there are three that feel it is their "right" to download anime by less-than-honorable means, and will admit it proudly.

That kind of logic doesn't compute to me. To me, it makes about as much sense as robbing a bank because you believe you have a right to everyone's money in the safe, not just yours.
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Postby Nate » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:13 pm

That analogy doesn't work at all for a multitude of reasons.

Also excellent job at dodging the burden of proof.
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Postby Yamamaya » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:13 pm

I stream most of my stuff legally now from good ole crunchy. Good vidya quality.

Also, you have yet to prove that illegal streaming killed ADV. If I had never watched NGE first, I never would have bought ADV's boxset. The same can be said of many people I'm sure. Do you buy a box set of a TV show you've never seen?

ADV is not even completely dead, just in a weird flux state.
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Postby rocklobster » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:13 am

I wasn't talking about ADV, I was talking about Geneon and CPM. And yes, I've heard of people who make blind purchases of even unseen TV shows.
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Postby Kunoichi » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:52 am

While i haven't read anyone's comments really and while I'm not saying I support illegal activities.

My brother in law who does a LOT of video torrents (and being honest I've done them too) applied to the CIA. They run a very thorough background check etc as you can imagine. He also told them prior to them looking through his computer that he did all the illegal download stuff. They didn't care. The reason he didn't get in? Because his credit score was low. -_- which they told him if he gets that up, he's good to go! (ex military Air Force computer dude). Anyways probably off topic. just got it in my head lol
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Postby Nate » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:58 am

rocklobster wrote:I wasn't talking about ADV, I was talking about Geneon and CPM.

Fine, whatever. Either way, Fish asked you for a citation for your statement, I asked you for hard evidence and mentioned you dodged the question in my last post, and now Yamamaya has again said you have yet to prove that your statement was correct. Not only did you ignore me when I said you dodged the burden of proof, you ignored Yamamaya's request for proof as well, instead only correcting him on the companies you were talking about.

Yes, every time you post in this thread, I'm going to bring this up, because you can't get away with making a ridiculous claim like that and dodging everyone requesting you to prove it. Even if you're trying to find your sources again (though I doubt such sources exist), at least say "Hold on I'm trying to find the article" or something so that you don't look like you're just ignoring everyone asking you this question.
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Postby blkmage » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:01 am

rocklobster (post: 1450670) wrote:And yes, I've heard of people who make blind purchases of even unseen TV shows.

The fact that people do this does not mean that it is smart, rational, or even desired consumer behaviour. I would argue that behaviour like this tends to overvalue the product and, if most people do it, leads to inflation of prices.

The fact of the matter is that, whether it jives with your moral standpoint or not, the huge advances in availability and access to anime in North America (lol what rest of the world) has been driven by illegal activity or failing companies flailing in desperation.

I will take this moment to remind everyone that legal streaming is a viable choice only because GONZO, in spring 2008, partnered with Crunchyroll in a last-ditch attempt to save their sinking ship, not out of some brilliant moment of foresight. That's not to mention the years that they spent driving their studio into the ground.
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Postby Kunoichi » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:06 am

I've never heard of Crunchyroll or GONZO before. I'll have to look at those :)
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Postby Fish and Chips » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:09 am

Kunoichi (post: 1450685) wrote:I've never heard of GONZO before.
That was probably for the best, actually.
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Postby Kunoichi » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:15 am

Oh it isn't around anymore? or it just wasn't a good site?
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Postby Yamamaya » Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:50 am

blkmage (post: 1450684) wrote:The fact that people do this does not mean that it is smart, rational, or even desired consumer behaviour. I would argue that behaviour like this tends to overvalue the product and, if most people do it, leads to inflation of prices.

At best, I'll blind buy maybe one DVD. Anime season box sets are expensive. You take your chances if you buy one that it will be absolute garbage. This is why pre viewing is so important. Until recently, there were no legal options for pre viewing anything. I'm not going to blow 60 bucks on say, two box sets of Madmen if I've never had the chance to watch Madmen.

blkmage (post: 1450684) wrote:The fact of the matter is that, whether it jives with your moral standpoint or not, the huge advances in availability and access to anime in North America (lol what rest of the world) has been driven by illegal activity or failing companies flailing in desperation.

I will take this moment to remind everyone that legal streaming is a viable choice only because GONZO, in spring 2008, partnered with Crunchyroll in a last-ditch attempt to save their sinking ship, not out of some brilliant moment of foresight. That's not to mention the years that they spent driving their studio into the ground.


If it wasn't for illegal activity in the first place, much of anime wouldn't exist today. It's still largely an internet subculture. Internet subcultures thrive on free easily available material.

For most Japanese anime companies, foreign exports are just the icing on the cake. GONZO saw some value in it, and decided to go for it. They didn't do it to save the North American animu industry.
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Postby Fish and Chips » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:47 am

Kunoichi (post: 1450688) wrote:Oh it isn't around anymore? or it just wasn't a good site?
Gonzo is a Japanese animation studio, and not one of particularly noteworthy output in my opinion.
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Postby MasterDias » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:33 am

rocklobster (post: 1450670) wrote:I wasn't talking about ADV, I was talking about Geneon and CPM.

CPM was basically on life support for years. Their financial problems predate the online streaming sites and can be traced back to the demise of Musicland in 2006.

Also most of CPM's titles were older series from the 80s/90s, so I find it unlikely fansubs would have affected them very much anyway.
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Postby Roy Mustang » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:01 am

Still, illegal streaming or downloading sites is not what killed ADV, Geneon and Central Park Media.

I already said what happen to Geneon, but I go into detail about ADV and CPM.

Where Central Park Media did their self in. Most of the titles that they had were stuff from the 80s and I can only think of a few that people would buy and that is Patlobor, Grave of the Fireflies, Record of Lodoss War, Revolutionary Girl Utena and Harlock Saga. The company was slow on releasing titles and at one point, they hadn't released anything on dvd for over a year.

Most fans think of Central Park Media, they think of their Anime 18 label, which was used to release hentai anime and never really thought of other titles that CPM relase that were non hentai. When CPM went under, it wasn't anime fans that were sad about this, but the hentai fans that hated to see CPM go.

Also CPM had legal problems as well. In March of 2007, Japanese Yaoi Publisher Libre posted a notice on its website saying that CPM's Be Beautiful division was illegally translating and selling its properties.

When Central Park Media filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy in April 2009, they had a debt of over $1.2 million Off. Right up until its bankruptcy, CPM still licensed its anime titles for American television and VOD, despite having not released anything on video for over a year. CPM had a very bad business plan and they did their self in. A lot of anime fans saw this one coming a mile away, since how CPM took forever to release anything and it was a matter of time that they would go under.

ADV one was a mess. A lot of their problems started with Newtype USA magazine. It never really took off and ADV poured a lot of money into this and they had a problem trying to find advertising partners as well.

But the major thing that hit them hard was the Sojitz partnership in June 2006. Japanese Sojitz Corporation is a trading corporation that operates in many industries, including construction, forestry, plastics, chemicals, mining, petroleum, textiles, and international trade. The partnership was done as a means of acquiring more titles in the Japanese market. From this point on, virtually all titles that ADV acquired were with Sojitz's help. When Sojitz Corporation didn't see any return money on this deal with ADV, they pulled out of their partnership with ADV around late 2007 to early 2008. In January of 2008 is when ADV mysteriously removed a large number of titles from their website. All the titles that ADV removed were titles acquired since the Sojitz collaboration and since it was Sojitz's money that help acquired them, Sojitz own the titles rights. After that, ADV was never able to stand on their own two legs after that. Then in October of 2008, ADV entered into a licensing arrangement with Japanese partner Sentai Filmworks. In May of 2009, ADV/Sentai Filmworks acquired rights to some the titles from the bankruptcy and liquidation of Central Park Media.

In September of 2009, ADV announced that it as selling off its assets, including intellectual properties, its distribution arm and the Anime Network to four companies, Seraphim Digital Studios, AEsir Holdings LLC, Valkyrie Media Partners LLC and SXION 23 LLC. After this, ADV brand name and logo were retired and all of the four companies bought ADV assets were registered and initially filed by Griffin D. Vance IV, who was ADV's senior vice president of business and legal affairs.

The following companies all acquired assets from A.D. Vision:

Sentai Filmworks is the licensor company for acquiring Japanese anime into the North American market.

AEsir Holdings has licensed rights to most of ADV Films' former library of titles (some titles are licensed directly by Sentai Filmworks).

Seraphim Studios acquired Amusement Park Media, ADV's production studio, and it was renamed Seraphim Digital Studios.

Valkyrie Media Partners acquired the Anime Network. The network continues to operate as before the sale.

Section23 Films is a distributor and marketing company of Switchblade Pictures, Sentai Filmworks, and AEsir Holdings.

On the same day ADV made this announcement, major retail website Robert's Corner Anime Blog contacted Mike Baliff, formerly of ADV Films and now heading up Sales and Marketing at Section 23 Films. RCAB's interview revealed that "Section 23 has acquired all of ADV's former licenses and most of the staff" including "everyone at ADV that mattered."

In addition to the new companies that were created from the remains of ADV, Section 23 also took over distribution of Switchblade Films. The company focuses on low-budget J-horror and pink cinema titles and its DVDs had previously been distributed by ADV. No one is quite certain as to the exact relationship of Switchblade and Section 23. The executives listed on all Switchblade titles differ from those on all other Section 23 releases, and several industry insiders have been lead to believe that "Switchblade is someone else's baby". However, when the registration of the company was found, it was revealed that John Ledford (co-founder of ADV) had helped register the company.

ADV hadn't really shut down and the new companies such as Section 23 were basically ADV selling itself to itself: that it was not a shutdown but a drastic rebranding and restructuring. The report went on to say that Section 23 was, for all intents and purposes, the direct successor-organization to the old ADV company name, and that ADV split its assets such as the Anime Channel into the other three companies to take advantage of several legal loopholes.

In October, 2009, rival distribution company FUNimation Entertainment posted an online Q&A video panel hosted by events manager Adam Sheehan. When asked about ADV going out of business, Sheehan's response was the following:

“ ADV isn't out of business. ADV did remaster itself, as you might call it, and change itself into multiple different companies (Section 23, etc.), holding different parts of its brands, of its marketing, so [it's] still around...the best way I would describe it is to think of it as Voltron: if it turned back into the five lions, so its not the one Voltron robot anymore, so the ADV logo is no longer around, but the lions and all the properties are still around. â€
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Postby ShunketsuXZ » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:10 pm

Anime piracy is definitely a major issue, the only problem being there's not a real solution...:/
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