Tokyo Bill strikes again!

[Yamamaya]

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2010-12-13/tokyo-youth-ordinance-bill-approved-by-committee

The bill prevents the sale of things, "sexually stimulating, encouraging cruelty, or may cause suicide" to people under the age of 18 in the city of Tokyo.

I'm not really sure what to think about this Tokyo Bill atm.

[ShiroiHikari]

Time will tell, I guess.

[Nate]

For the record, this bill has passed. No idea when it will go into effect, or even what the effects will be. However, someone over at /m/ posted a handy FAQ to tell you what you'll want to know about this bill.

Q: This is only sexual stuff, right?
A: No. It reads "anything that may hinder the healthy growth of youths by stirring sexual emotions, promoting cruel behaviour, or causing suicidal or criminal tendencies", which is a purposefully ambiguous blanket statement that can pretty much be applied to anything. Even Doraemon could be considered 18+ under this.

Q: Elaborate?
A: No criminal acts. That means no killing, no stealing, no carrying of weapons, no sharing of bicycles, no smoking/drinking for minors (in fact since it says "promoting" criminal behaviour, it could be argued that no smoking/drinking will be allowed at all). Basically anything with action could be considered promoting cruel/criminal behaviour. Meanwhile the "stirring sexual emotions" part will similarly affect anything with fanservice or romance. So basically, only stuff like Hidamari Sketch will remain.

Q: What will this affect?
A: All forms of fiction except novels and live action.

Q: How will it affect them?
A: In Tokyo, everything has to be classified by the industry under either all-ages (below 18) and 18+, and stores will have to make sure minors can't get 18+ stuff.

Q: So just slap an 18+ sticker and life goes on as usual, no big deal, right?
A: No. If they can't sell it to minors they won't bother making it in the first place.

Q: Only Tokyo, so move out, no big deal.
A: Tokyo is the economic centre of Japan, plus all of the big companies are located in Tokyo (some have their own ridiculously expensive skyscrapers located in ridiculously expensive districts). The rest of the country will be affected. Plus if it's passed in Tokyo, other prefectures are very likely to follow suit, as always.

[Yamamaya]

As far as I know the law will only be applied if someone complains about a particular animu/manga where the law may or may not be applied to that particular animu/manga.

[rocklobster]

All hail Tokyo Bill, protector of kids everywhere!

[Nate]

As far as I know the law will only be applied if someone complains about a particular animu/manga where the law may or may not be applied to that particular animu/manga.

Someone didn't read the FAQ I just posted.

But that's okay. I'm used to being ignored.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

Q: So just slap an 18+ sticker and life goes on as usual, no big deal, right?
A: No. If they can't sell it to minors they won't bother making it in the first place.

Won't they? Isn't the 18+ otaku market large enough (relatively speaking) to support de sexy shows?

[ShiroiHikari]

There are two "ratings" in Japan, all ages and 18+. Basically this means way, way, way more things are eligible to be rated 18+, including pretty much every manga published in Shounen Jump. You know, SHOUNEN Jump? The biggest selling manga magazine in Japan whose target audience is young boys (but plenty of older people read it too)? This means that any show/game/manga/etc. that has anything REMOTELY objectionable in it is likely to be slapped with an 18+ label. What happens to things like Shounen Jump after this goes into effect?

This won't affect pervy stuff; that stuff is already rated 18+. This is like the US government saying "every film including this, this, and that has to be rated R". It's like making the only two film ratings G and R.

I swear, Japan is TRYING to bring its economy to further ruination.

[Nate]

It's not that the 18+ market isn't big, it's a couple of things. One, 18+ is usually reserved for hentai. Under this bill, non-hentai shows could be classified as 18+, shows like say, Gundam because it has fighting and depicts death and violence. Gundam would then be classified as "harmful to minors" under this bill and relegated to 18+ (this is hypothetical obviously).

In Japan, the 18+ section of bookstores and video stores is, from what I've heard, pretty small and in a roped off or secluded area from the main store. This would severely limit the access of the show, since retailers would be less likely to carry it, and obviously it'd be harder for kids to get a hold of it.

So what would happen is you'd have to either add in a bunch of sex to a show that didn't originally call for it just to entice otaku to buy it, or leave it as-is and have it die off because otaku won't be as interested in it and the actual target audience can't get a hold of it.

EDIT: Nette explained it pretty well, although it's more equivalent to there being only G or NC-17 (since children can attend R rated movies if there's someone over 17 with them, no child can get into an NC-17 movie).

Imagine that The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe was rated NC-17 in the US because it doesn't fit the qualifications for a G rating. Imagine how many of you would be prevented from seeing it in theaters because it's NC-17 (because there's only two ratings now, G and NC-17).

Now do you understand the effects of this bill a bit better?

[blkmage]

Won't they? Isn't the 18+ otaku market large enough (relatively speaking) to support de sexy shows?

There's a common misconception that these are the only casualties. In fact, it's arguable that the works you think are affected are even affected at all. Read Nate's post again, it isn't just sexual content, it's anything that could be deemed to have a negative effect on the development of minors, which is defined extremely vaguely. So this could include things like Utena or Evangelion or Berserk a lot of Asano Inio's manga. I mean, yeah, you wouldn't let a child read or watch some of that stuff, but it's not 18+ material. Heck, even Kare Kano could fall into the definition. Or Persona 3, how they summon their personas. And so on and so forth.

Also notice the specific exclusion of books and live-action material. Why is that?

[Nate]

Also notice the specific exclusion of books and live-action material. Why is that?

Because Kamen Rider and Super Sentai make the mad money.

Just kidding. Anyway here's a blog post with a breakdown of what is exactly in Bill 156 (though of course, there could be meanings lost in translation, but it's still a good look at what is in there).

http://dankanemitsu.wordpress.com/2010/11/24/bill-156s-total-scope/

[ShiroiHikari]

Because this isn't a "save the children" bill, it's the "GTFO nerds" bill.

[Fish and Chips]

There's a common misconception that these are the only casualties. In fact, it's arguable that the works you think are affected are even affected at all. Read Nate's post again, it isn't just sexual content, it's anything that could be deemed to have a negative effect on the development of minors, which is defined extremely vaguely. So this could include things like Utena or Evangelion or Berserk a lot of Asano Inio's manga. I mean, yeah, you wouldn't let a child read or watch some of that stuff, but it's not 18+ material. Heck, even Kare Kano could fall into the definition.

Also notice the specific exclusion of books and live-action material. Why is that?

Berserk

Berserk is absolutely 18+ material.

However, I'm pretty sure it's already marked and marketed as such, so I don't know the extent to which this bill will affect it.

[ShiroiHikari]

Berserk is absolutely 18+ material.

However, I'm pretty sure it's already marked and marketed as such, so I don't know the extent to which this bill will affect it.

Probably not much at all. Again, anything that's already marked 18+ probably will not be affected.

[blkmage]

Berserk is absolutely 18+ material.

However, I'm pretty sure it's already marked and marketed as such, so I don't know the extent to which this bill will affect it.

Is it? It's serialized in Young Animal, which I know looks pretty sketchy, but Umino Chika's current series, 3-Gatsu no Lion is also serialized in it, and that's definitely not 18+ material.

[ShiroiHikari]

If it wasn't marked 18+ before it probably will be now. >_>

[TheSubtleDoctor]

There's a common misconception that these are the only casualties. In fact, it's arguable that the works you think are affected are even affected at all. Read Nate's post again, it isn't just sexual content, it's anything that could be deemed to have a negative effect on the development of minors, which is defined extremely vaguely. So this could include things like Utena or Evangelion or Berserk a lot of Asano Inio's manga. I mean, yeah, you wouldn't let a child read or watch some of that stuff, but it's not 18+ material. Heck, even Kare Kano could fall into the definition. Or Persona 3, how they summon their personas. And so on and so forth.

Thanks. Just looking for some information. But yeah, Berserk, Eva and Persona 3 are all 17/18+ works IMO (Berserk and P3 are in actual fact), and Solanin is cutting it pretty close.

[mechana2015]

I would think that young animal as a whole is marked as 18+ (I ran across a few series from it a while back that were...not CAA safe to say the least).

[ShiroiHikari]

I would just like to reiterate that under this bill, things like One Piece could be slapped with an 18+ label. Think about that for a minute.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

Nette explained it pretty well, although it's more equivalent to there being only G or NC-17 (since children can attend R rated movies if there's someone over 17 with them, no child can get into an NC-17 movie).

Imagine that The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe was rated NC-17 in the US because it doesn't fit the qualifications for a G rating. Imagine how many of you would be prevented from seeing it in theaters because it's NC-17 (because there's only two ratings now, G and NC-17).

Not long ago, there was a similar situation w/ American cinema, though, right? No PG-13 rating, it was either G,PG or R.

Won't the anime creators just make their shows All Ages rating friendly so that they can be bought by otaku but they don't have to depend on them (a la, the way things used to be)?

EDIT: But...if One Piece isn't All Ages appropriate, then...yikes =).

[Fish and Chips]

Is it? It's serialized in Young Animal, which I know looks pretty sketchy, but Umino Chika's current series, 3-Gatsu no Lion is also serialized in it, and that's definitely not 18+ material.

I've read every currently published volume of Berserk.

You can take my word on this, or I could post some examples of the type of stuff that goes down in Miura's writing. Your choice.

[blkmage]

I would think that young animal as a whole is marked as 18+ (I ran across a few series from it a while back that were...not CAA safe to say the least).

That wouldn't explain why there are non 18+ series running in it though and 3-Gatsu no Lion is definitely CAA safe. Wikipedia (which I admit is not very reliable for this) says it's a seinen magazine, so I'm guessing it's borderline, but still widely available. UNTIL NOW DUN DUN DUNNNN.

[mechana2015]

Won't the anime creators just make their shows All Ages rating friendly so that they can be bought by otaku but they don't have to depend on them (a la, the way things used to be)?

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but what it sounds like is you're suggesting that all the shows and comics try to adjust to fit within the standards. We already know what happens when this sort of standard is enforced, and it's called 4Kids. It's not a good thing. One piece would have to drop guns, smoking and drinking, fighting and theft. Naruto would have to drop fighting. Bleach would have to drop fighting and delinquency. DBZ couldn't have fighting. Reborn! would have to drop references to the mafia, guns and fighting. FMA will have to be edited to not show any blood or combat.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but what it sounds like is you're suggesting that all the shows and comics try to adjust to fit within the standards. We already know what happens when this sort of standard is enforced, and it's called 4Kids. It's not a good thing.

Yeah, that is a bit of a failed experiment.

Guess le bill's criteria are a bit too steep/vague ergo flexible.

[ShiroiHikari]

To use One Piece again, it'd mean either making it so kids can't buy it at the store, or taking Sanji's cigarettes away and replacing them with lollipops. Either way, it sucks. (No pun intended.)

[Nate]

Not long ago, there was a similar situation w/ American cinema, though, right? No PG-13 rating, it was either G,PG or R.

Actually, it was G, PG, R, and X. X later became NC-17, and PG-13 was introduced. But see? There were two intermediate ratings between G and X. PG and R. This would be the equivalent of just G and NC-17. Nothing in between. The Narnia movies would be NC-17. Harry Potter would be NC-17. All of Pixar's movies would be NC-17.

Won't the anime creators just make their shows All Ages rating friendly so that they can be bought by otaku but they don't have to depend on them (a la, the way things used to be)?

That goes back to the FAQ. If it has fighting, it can be classified as 18+. Got a character who won't listen to his parents or teacher? 18+. In other words, "All Ages rating friendly" would be stuff like Hidamari Sketch or K-ON! Mecha anime would die completely. Shounen stuff like Bleach and Naruto and One Piece would die completely. Full Metal Alchemist would be 18+, the only way to make it all ages would be if Al and Ed sat around the house and had pretend adventures with their toys. Is that really what you're suggesting?

Re-read the FAQ. Any material that could be deemed "harmful" would be automatically 18+. Fighting? 18+. Disobeying an authority figure? 18+. Bullying? 18+. I don't think you quite grasp the effects this bill could conceivably have. It was mentioned that Doraemon could be considered 18+ under that bill. Do you know what Doraemon is? If you do, you should realize the implications it carries.

EDIT: Made this before your last post. You seem to have gotten it fairly well now I think. XD

EDIT AGAIN: Just making it clear that all of this is speculation. We're not saying all shounen will be rated 18+ when this bill goes into effect. It's just that it COULD happen. There's no way to tell what will actually happen until it happens.

[blkmage]

I've read every currently published volume of Berserk.

You can take my word on this, or I could post some examples of the type of stuff that goes down in Miura's writing. Your choice.

I know what Berserk is like and I know that it's not kids stuff or anything, but I still wonder if it's legally 18+ or not. There's a surprising amount of stuff that isn't, and again, it doesn't make sense to me that there'd be 18+ and non-18+ series running in the same publication.

[Yamamaya]

Well you'd have to look at what generally qualifies 18+ or not. Usually in America if something is rated NC-17 it's usually due to explicit sexual content or extreme violence.

It all depends on how actively this bill is enforced and the specifics of how the Tokyo government addresses each individual case.

[MasterDias]

I don't believe general seinen/josei magazines (Young Jump, Business Jump, Ultra Jump, Afternoon, Big Comic Spirits, even Young Animal, etc.) are actually 18+ even if they are targeted at adults. An 18+ rating is generally reserved for hentai/porn. I don't believe even Berserk is actually labeled 18+ in Japan, despite the content.

I will caution everyone not to jump to conclusions though. Yeah, the bill is stupidly vague and should never have passed. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they will interpret it as draconian as possible. Certainly, the Japanese federal government has already expressed it's displeasure about it. Everyone who is interested should read Dan Kanemitsu's blog postings. He has quite a bit of information.

Notably, ten publishers (Shueisha, Shogakukan, Kodansha, Kadokawa Shoten, Akita Shoten, Hakusensha, Shonen Gahousha, Shinchosha, Futabasha, and LEED) are boycotting Tokyo Anime Fair. Given how big TAF is, and how major many of those publishers are...this is a big deal.

Even the Wall Street Journal has posted an article about it.

[mechana2015]

I know what Berserk is like and I know that it's not kids stuff or anything, but I still wonder if it's legally 18+ or not. There's a surprising amount of stuff that isn't, and again, it doesn't make sense to me that there'd be 18+ and non-18+ series running in the same publication.

Is it possible that seinen mags are generally considered as 18+ anyhow and don't get labeled because it would be redundant?