Bang Zoom to Cease Anime Dubbing in 2011 Without Fan Support

[MightiMidget]

Would you buy all the shows that you've seen this year when/if they become licensed?

Not all, but a lot. I plan to buy Darker Than Black when the complete series comes out in May. However, just because I waited for it to cost $50 on a nice, complete box set instead of spending $120 on all the individual volumes, does not mean I was instantly not going to support them. Also, a fair chunk of the shows I have watched this year have been on netflix, hulu or crunchyroll (though I've seen two on there). Those are all legal sources. Other shows I have watched, such as Prince of Tennis, when I have the money and find it available on a reputable site (waiting for it to appear on amazon)? I will totally spend the money for it.

It is definitely not cheap. It may be for certain anime but there are plenty that are way overpriced.
The second part of Death Note is $52.49 for 17 episodes.

Tsubasa Chronicles is $62.99 each for both seasons then $89.99 for the whole series pack. That's almost border line 100 bucks for a 52 episode series!

The Girl Who Leapt Through Time is $21.99 for one movie! That is ridiculous. Most new American movies don't cost that much.

I'm not saying that they should become bargain bin prices but $62.99 for 26 episodes is a bit much especially since were in a recession and people are trying to pinch pennies.

I am not saying that people should pirate anime but I am saying that I understand why people would rather do that then buy it.

Um. Have you checked the amazon.com marketplace? Who buys things at list price anymore? List price is always expensive! The amazon.com marketplace has things dirt cheap. I got the first two disc of Death Note + shipping for $11. That is cheap even for something not anime.

You can support an industry and be frugal at the same time. I did get the $80 Ouran. However if I had waited another month or two I would have seen it be released for $30 cheaper, and if I waited a little longer I probably could get it off the amazon.com marketplace for $30-$40. That might "not be cheap", however you can't pick on anime for not being cheap when if I want to buy season 1 of Fringe, at list price it is $60. American television isn't cheap either.

Now, I do think it would be a shame to see something that many people do want in their anime go away because, believe it or not, there are people who don't buy sub-only stuff right now b/c they have a choice to get the dubs.

*raises hand* I'm one of those people. *ducks from subbies* I like the choice! Being able to compare and contrast is fun! Besides, there are times when if I am cleaning I can't read the subtitles as I multitask and I need to find something I can understand and follow.

[Atria35]

*raises hand* I'm one of those people. *ducks from subbies* I like the choice! Being able to compare and contrast is fun! Besides, there are times when if I am cleaning I can't read the subtitles as I multitask and I need to find something I can understand and follow.

I'm with you here. I do stuff where I can't keep my eyes on the TV, and prefer to listen to dubbing at that point. Preferably good dubs (they do exist), but any helps tremendously.

[AnimeGirl]

I don't see how this would be the end of dub anime if it's just Bang Zoom ceasing. XD!!! The only dub I saw from them was of Cardcaptor Sakura: The Sealed Card, that's it. As long as Funimation is still in business, I'm not worried. But I AM a dub anime fan. It's not that I don't like Japanese with subs, I do, honest! But I adore dubs, too! But I doubt it's the end of dubs....
But yeah, anime is expensive. But I buy it off Amazon.com Marketplace, since it's cheaper from other sellers than the Amazon price. Yay for a cheaper way to get anime the legal way! *confetti*

[minakichan]

The fact is, it's actually rather silly to do anything more than tolerate a dub (what foreign film fans celebrate dubbed tracks? Generally, a dub is something that people who don't want to bother reading subtitles or hear that crazy un-American speak watch; the idea of actually going out and jumping into Vic Mignogna's pants is quite the anomaly in the adaptation of foreign films). Also, the market generally does prefer subs over dubs.

But aside from that:

You can support an industry and be frugal at the same time. I did get the $80 Ouran. However if I had waited another month or two I would have seen it be released for $30 cheaper, and if I waited a little longer I probably could get it off the amazon.com marketplace for $30-$40.

1) If you're buying it used from Marketplace, you are not supporting the industry any more than a fansub fan. It has been purchased and consumed already, so none of that money goes back to the original companies. It'd be akin to paying for fansubs-- some people actually do feel better if they pay for fansubs because they think that the fact that they dished out money legitimizes them, but they should know that this is futile and meaningless. (This is why the games industry has on multiple occasions attempted to crack down on used games sales at GameStop and the like.) We forget that watching fansubs is the same as buying something used, renting it, or borrowing it from a friend. Being legal is not the same thing as supporting the industry.

2) We all forget that the licensed goods market is ten times that of the anime market. Japanese companies do not make the bulk of their money selling DVDs or licenses, but from toys and merchandise. If you download a fansub or watch anime on TV, like it, and buy a couple dakimakura or whatever, you're giving more money to the industry than if you didn't buy any anime ever because you're broke.

But of course, it's better to support the industry directly, right? How do we do this? Online streaming is coming into vogue as an excellent alternative to fansubs (so long as Crunchyroll decides to get legit subbers instead of whoever they're hiring nowadays). If online streams can provide the same as fansubbers, there will be no reason for people to fansub anymore-- remember how Dattebayo stopped subbing Naruto Shippuuden? That's the future.

Plenty of hardcore fans who watch fansubs buy DVDs as well. The fansub viewers who don't buy anime are generally casual and wouldn't buy anime anyway-- a lot of these people don't even call themselves "fans." At any rate, if the market is not demanding dubs, then producers cannot afford to supply them-- this is law. Whining for people to increase demand isn't going to help.

[Mr. Hat'n'Clogs]

It is definitely not cheap. It may be for certain anime but there are plenty that are way overpriced.
The second part of Death Note is $52.49 for 17 episodes.

Tsubasa Chronicles is $62.99 each for both seasons then $89.99 for the whole series pack. That's almost border line 100 bucks for a 52 episode series!

The Girl Who Leapt Through Time is $21.99 for one movie! That is ridiculous. Most new American movies don't cost that much.

I'm not saying that they should become bargain bin prices but $62.99 for 26 episodes is a bit much especially since were in a recession and people are trying to pinch pennies.

See, I really dislike it when people complain about the prices. Yeah, boxsets can cost some for a 52 episode series. Death Note, while being one of the more expensive examples, is still miles better than paying $200+ for a Trigun boxset with less content. Tsubasa costing $90 for 52 episodes is a pretty good steal as well. I bet that's how much a series would cost here.

Oh? A new movie for $20 dollars, with a slashed MSRP. It appears we do pay that much for a new movie.

[Nate]

If you're buying it used from Marketplace, you are not supporting the industry any more than a fansub fan. It has been purchased and consumed already, so none of that money goes back to the original companies.

THANK you for pointing that out. Yes, it's true. When you buy a used DVD from someone, zero dollars of that goes to the business. So, as Mina said, it is exactly the same effect as downloading a fansub--that is, the companies do not get money.

While it is legal to buy a used DVD and it is still illegal to download a fansub, you are not supporting the industry by buying a used DVD, and really cannot claim any more support for anime in America than a fansubber can. All you can say is your denying the anime industry money is legal.

The same is also true of renting anime from a store, the anime industry obtains zero money from that.

I'd also be quick to point out that watching anime at an anime club at college or school is also illegal. The Federal Copyright Act (Title 17, United States code, Public Law 94-553, 90 Stat. 2541) governs how copyrighted materials, such as movies, may be utilized publicly. Neither the rental nor the purchase or lending of a videocassette or DVD carries with it the right to exhibit such a movie publicly outside the home. Meaning technically anime club is just as illegal as fansubs.

Just throwing that out there. I always like to point that out when someone starts playing morality police with fansubs (not you, Mina!).

It'd be akin to paying for fansubs-- some people actually do feel better if they pay for fansubs because they think that the fact that they dished out money legitimizes them, but they should know that this is futile and meaningless.

I've paid for fansubs, I paid for my fansubs of Sailor Moon S, SuperS, and Stars, though it wasn't in an attempt to legitimize them. Two times it was because they were sold at hobby shops, and once it was because I felt a friend of mine who got me the fansubs deserved a bit of compensation for the work she put into getting them to me.

Japanese companies do not make the bulk of their money selling DVDs or licenses, but from toys and merchandise.

This is why I don't feel bad about watching fansubs of Kamen Rider and Super Sentai, because I order the toys direct from a Japanese hobby store and am directly supporting the industry. In fact, without fansubs, I wouldn't be buying all those cool toys, so fansubs are a way for me to give money to the companies.

HOW INTERESTING.

At any rate, if the market is not demanding dubs, then producers cannot afford to supply them-- this is law. Whining for people to increase demand isn't going to help.

Also, this. The dub companies are literally providing a service that most people don't want, and complaining that people don't want it. I realize dubs are a necessity in a lot of cases; for example, Pokemon. Most seven or eight year olds aren't going to watch subtitled shows, and especially with TV airings, subtitles aren't usually an option. However, the DVD market is not television, and there's enough kids' shows and ridiculously popular mainstream anime to keep dub companies busy. In fact I'd say that the anime most people watch fansubbed isn't anime that would be dub-profitable anyway. I mean yeah you get the oddballs who watch fansubbed Pokemon and whatnot, but they're the exception, not the rule.

And as was pointed out earlier, it's not like most dub actors would be out of jobs. Most of them have other gigs. Heck, most of them work for dubbing in video games. I'm playing Persona 4 and I can already tell you that JYB, Wendee Lee, and Yuri Lowenthall are part of the voice cast of this game, and a lot of others I'm sure. In fact, the only ones who'd really be out of jobs would be the executives of the companies.

[Atria35]

I'd also be quick to point out that watching anime at an anime club at college or school is also illegal. The Federal Copyright Act (Title 17, United States code, Public Law 94-553, 90 Stat. 2541) governs how copyrighted materials, such as movies, may be utilized publicly. Neither the rental nor the purchase or lending of a videocassette or DVD carries with it the right to exhibit such a movie publicly outside the home. Meaning technically anime club is just as illegal as fansubs.

Just throwing that out there. I always like to point that out when someone starts playing morality police with fansubs (not you, Mina!).

You've also just made student movie clubs across the country weep, Nate. I hope you're happy.

(j/k, j/k!) I'll be keeping this in mind, too. Might come in useful, sometime.

[Nate]

I'm very happy.

Their tears are the sweet taste of victory.

[Mr. Hat'n'Clogs]

I'd also be quick to point out that watching anime at an anime club at college or school is also illegal. The Federal Copyright Act (Title 17, United States code, Public Law 94-553, 90 Stat. 2541) governs how copyrighted materials, such as movies, may be utilized publicly. Neither the rental nor the purchase or lending of a videocassette or DVD carries with it the right to exhibit such a movie publicly outside the home. Meaning technically anime club is just as illegal as fansubs.

To be fair, at least Funimation and I believe Bandai don't mind you doing it, as long as you ask them. Funi will even send you free stuff if you register and ask.

[Nate]

Yes, they usually don't mind if you ask. The question is, how many people ask? Not all of them.

[minakichan]

To clarify the issue of anime clubs (as someone who helps run a rather legit anime club herself), the "legal" thing to do is to ask for permission. Permission does not always get granted.

One instance we had was that we wanted to show Le Chevalier d'Eon, an ADV title. Normally, yes, ADV gives (gave) permissions. When we asked about Chevalier, they were particularly slow about getting a response for once; we assumed that it as OK, so we went ahead and showed it, but 3 weeks later, when we were halfway through the series, they came back saying that we couldn't.

Oops. Weeeeee're a bunch of criminals.

And this was showing it to a group of maybe 15 people, no more than a mid-sized house party. We paid for the DVDs in their entirety, but we had to stop in the middle of the series.

Also, any of you like Miyazaki movies? Nausicaa, Kiki, Mononoke, Ponyo, etc? You can't legally show them to your anime club. If your second grade teacher decides to throw a party and show My Neighbor Totoro because you were all being so nice and quiet during DEAR time and hey! maybe 8 year olds will like Japanese cartoons!, she better pay a hundred+ dollar showing license first, even if she bought the DVD with her own money.

(And no, most anime clubs do not ask for permission. Most anime clubs have shown a Miyazaki movie in their lifetimes.)

[ShiroiHikari]

Am I the only one that thinks it's stupid that you can buy a DVD but if you want to show it to 20 of your friends at the same time, you're breaking the law? I mean, seriously?

[Mr. Hat'n'Clogs]

Am I the only one that thinks it's stupid that you can buy a DVD but if you want to show it to 20 of your friends at the same time, you're breaking the law? I mean, seriously?

Yeah, that's pretty stupid. It's no different than lending it to each of them individually.

[blkmage]

The thing is, if publishers had their way, they'd make it so that you can't lend media to others.

[Yamamaya]

Here's the issue. Most anime box sets cost at least 50 bucks a pop if not more. I'm not made of money, so I have to think long and hard about the anime purchases I make(most of the individual DVDs aren't worth it. Why would I want to spend 25+ dollars for one DVD when I can get the full box set later for less per DVD?) Hence, if I hadn't watched the anime beforehand online, I probably wouldn't buy the DVD.

Anime is a very niche market that spreads its popularity by word of mouth and the interwebz. There's a reason why Funi is streaming so many of its shows now. They realize that more people will buy their animes if they view them FIRST.(I've noticed a lot of fansub sites take down their versions of the show once funi sets up their own streams anyway).

They're just using the same old crappy pirating argument. However, the funny thing is, they actually think extreme fansubbers care about dubs. Makes me laugh so hard.

True facts blkmage. From what I understand, copyright laws aren't as strict in Japan especially with regards to doujin works such as Touhou, which explains the massive amount of legal fanworks of Touhou(Zune even admits that he changes his games based on what he notices from the fanbase).

[shooraijin]

Getting a little off topic here, folks. Let's stay out of the legality issue and get back to the original discussion.

For the record: yours truly watches dubbed. Let the wet noodle flaying begin.

[rocklobster]

I watch whatever version I can. I'm old school, I take what I can get.

[goldenspines]

Well if Bang Zoom isn't going to re-release 5 Centimeters per Second, I don't care much one way or another if they go out of business. It happens. It happened to Geneon. And it can happen again.
(Who knows! Maybe if Bang Zoom goes out of business, Funi will pick up 5CPS and re-release it *dreams* C8) EDIT: Or wait, do they even have the power to re-release it? If not, they should. XD; *goes to bug ADV now*
They also need to sell "Adventures in Voice Acting" in real stores, not just online. But I know that may never happen. -_-

I personally enjoy dubs if they are done right. And so far, I've been pretty lucky with my favorite anime having pretty good dubs (e.g. Baccano, Ouran, Samurai Champloo, etc).

Also, like it has been mentioned in this thread, just because we don't buy dubbed anime doesn't mean anime as a whole is going to die in the US. Unless, dubbing companies had control over what a person could order from Japan, which as far as I know, they do not.

But man, you guys, you all know what this means. Eventually, Funi and ADV will take over the world together. They seem to be the ones who aren't having much trouble.


P.S. Someone does need to bring Kamen Rider W to the States, preferably shiny and cleanly subbed. I'd rather not see live action dubbed. XD;

[minakichan]

Eventually, Funi and ADV will take over the world together. They seem to be the ones who aren't having much trouble.

Well, Funi and Section 23, but yeah.

Funi isn't the best out there--their releases have issues, but they're consistent, they pick up a lot of abandoned anime, they aren't afraid of online streaming, and they generously slash prices, so even if I don't like their work, I'm totally willing to buy their discs. Also, there certainly are other publishers-- Media Blasters, Nozomi, etc-- that we can rely on for more niche titles.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

Also, like it has been mentioned in this thread, just because we don't buy dubbed anime doesn't mean anime as a whole is going to die in the US.

Yo, Goldy.

Just want to point out for clarity's sake that, the argument being made by Bang Zoom is not that the death of dubs is itself the death of anime. The two aren't two ways of looking at the same phenomenon. What BZ is claiming is that the death of dubs is the first domino, so to speak, the first link in a chain. Something like "First it's X, and, if things proceed as they are currently proceeding, then it will be Y" is his argument from his own experience as an industry "insider."

[blkmage]

Yo, Goldy.

Just want to point out for clarity's sake that, the argument being made by Bang Zoom is not that the death of dubs is itself the death of anime. The two aren't two ways of looking at the same phenomenon. What BZ is claiming is that the death of dubs is the first domino, so to speak, the first link in a chain. Something like "First it's X, and, if things proceed as they are currently proceeding, then it will be Y" is his argument from his own experience as an industry "insider."

But those two arguments are exactly the same thing. He's using dubs as a measure of the success of the industry and if dubs fail, then it is inevitable that the rest of the industry eventually dies. We're arguing that that is not necessarily the case.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

He's using dubs as a measure of the success of the industry

I'm not sure. I think he's just using the collapsing of the dub studios as a measure of the failure of the market as a whole, but not necessarily affirming the converse. I don't think saying:

"Hey, if X,Y, and Z continue to go on, then the North American Anime market will collapse. Dubbing studios will be the first to bite it b/c they are one of the biggest expenses apart from the actual international license"

is the same thing as saying:

"Dubbing studios success=the North American Anime market's success full stop."

The former depends upon the later, sure, but I did not read him as saying that the later necessarily depends on the former. I could be wrong tho =).

[Etoh*the*Greato]

I'm very happy.

Their tears are the sweet taste of victory.

I'd think it would be more salty.

Also, Man... Wendee Lee. I haven't thought about that lady in AGES. Right up there with Sandy Fox.

A word on the fansub thing. My personal policy has always been "Once it becomes legall distributed in the US, don't fansub it." It's not one that I've always been successful keeping to (Due to weak will, non-current release lists, or a combination thereof), but it's worked pretty well so far. I too have paid for Fansubs, but it was more accidental than anything. The "DO NOT PAY FOR THIS FAN SUB" message when I finally managed to boot the DVD up was a huge hint. lol

I believe we've had a discussion in the past about how the Anime business itself in Japan is also failing, but I doubt Fansubs are contributing much to that. On American Shores, the internet has certainly been a game changer and I definitely agree with the statement that you can't beg for more consumer demand. On the other hand, I don't know how closely I agree with the sentiment that the shows being watched subbed are ones that would be unmarketable while dubbed.

[blkmage]

Now we're getting into semantics and technicalities. The fact is that he's conflating the health of the industry as a whole with the health of dubbing. He has a vested interest in keeping people buying dubs and it's made clear in his "you wouldn't download a car" rant. And the reason he ties the two together is because clearly, not enough people care about dubs alone. Why would they, if they're downloading fansubs? So he has to cloak his argument to save dubbing in the argument that anime is dying.

The question of whether dubs are worth it is not whether there's demand for it as an absolute quantity. There's obviously demand. The question of whether it's worth it or not is whether it is profitable and sustainable to keep producing them. For some quick and dirty data, there's been no one in this thread yet who has said that they exclusively watch dubs, just that they enjoy or prefer them.

Finally, coming from an executive of an entertainment corporation, the "you wouldn't download a car" argument for a lot of people is like an alarm or a signal that we can safely ignore this person's addled rants. Like I said before, this is like the fourth time that we've had this same fight. We've heard the RIAA and the MPAA and whoever else whine as they cling on to their failing business models. This guy is not going to get much more success going down that line of argument in the Year of Our Lord Two Thousand Ten.

[bkilbour]

hm... you know, the Bible tells us to obey the ruling authorities (romans 13, ecclesiastes), and so I must obey them even if it means I don't necessarily agree with the law.

To go watch stuff online illegally is to say that you would rather disobey God than be kept from watching the anime you want, when you want it.

And even if it were legal, I know when wisdom in a business comes up - and the Bang Zoom folks were right. I would still have to buy, if only to keep a favorite media alive (this coming from a dub fan).

Look... If I can't afford more anime/manga, guess what; I learn to appreciate what I have, and wait until I can afford to buy more without risk. It's called maturity.

[minakichan]

hm... you know, the Bible tells us to obey the ruling authorities (romans 13, ecclesiastes), and so I must obey them even if it means I don't necessarily agree with the law.

The Bible says a lot of things, and there are plenty of instances in history where obeying ruling authorities was far worse than disobeying them. Not saying that this necessarily is applicable to fansubs, but the idea that you're trying to turn what is a secular, economic debate into a religious one is a bit holier-than-thou.

But to get back to the topic, I think blkmage is entirely correct. This guy isn't really using legitimate arguments, but who can blame him? He's in danger of losing his job. The problem is that when people realize that his argument isn't legit, it doesn't really help him in any case.

I encourage people to read "Progress Against the Law: Anime and Fandom, with Key to the Globalization of Culture" by Sean Leonard, if you can get a copy of it. The anime industry as it is today largely exists because of fansubs in the past. Yes, it was illegal activity, but if you're arguing from a purely moral standpoint, fansubs back then and fansubs now are both illegal and there is no difference. If fansubs have never existed in the first place, these companies would certainly have nothing to complain about today.

[Cap'n Nick]

The legality of fansubs is not an issue that is open for debate in this community. Let's heed the earlier warning to stop talking about them so this thread can stay open.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

his "you wouldn't download a car" rant...
Finally, coming from an executive of an entertainment corporation, the "you wouldn't download a car" argument for a lot of people is like an alarm or a signal that we can safely ignore this person's addled rants...

I've been meaning to say this: he doesn't speak of downloading cars in this blog post. Did he make this analogy in the past and I'm just not aware of it? Are you refering to a rant-type rather than an actual, particular rant he made? Your (admittedly funny) picture was the first time that I saw the phrase "you wouldn't download a car" connected with this blog.

[blkmage]

Yeah, I don't think anyone is disputing that fansubs are illegal. They are. What is up for discussion though is whether the economic impact is as great as this guy claims and whether the industry's response is helping or hurting themselves.

EDIT: "download a car" is a reference to the boilerplate anti-piracy screed that often employs flawed arguments about lost sales and such while hyperbolizing the economic impact and justifying the refusal to change from an obsolete business model

[Etoh*the*Greato]

And I would totally download a car if the option was available to me.

No, but seriously. In regards to the Anime Industry on an international level, I don't think the dramatic decline in Dubs on the American side will have much of an impact. As Nate has said, we do plenty of business in other products that help us encourage the programs and industry. On the other hand, the American industry is almost cromprised almost solely of dubs. There is a market for american made or american marketed omake and what-nots, but this market has been tapped and is currently being headed by the companies that are actually doing well.

Perhaps the lesson then is that instead of asking us to generate interest the companies themselves should shift gears and start producing or importing figures/posters/etc for the licenses they've acquired. It's more expensive, granted, but what few companies could end up pulling it off would be much healthier in the long run, I reckon. Economically speaking it is much wiser to produce a grocery list of goods and services than to clench your entire business around one specific product.