Spice and Wolf

[SnoringFrog]

I read about this on The Escapist recently, and was wondering if anyone here had seen it and what they thought about it? I'm still debating whether or not to go and watch it.

[Beau Soir]

I watched the first 2-3 episodes of it, then stopped. It was charming and I really liked the music and art style. The characters are pretty neat too.

But beginning even in the opening song, the female lead character Holo doesn't like to wear clothes. However, there's no detail shown. It doesn't bother me that much since I'm an artist and I sketch out the body without clothing first (to have more accurate clothing folds and proportions), but I thought I should warn you.
Also, I don't really count this as a spoiler because it would say so in a short summary of the show, but Holo is a pagan goddess of harvest. A man who claims to be Christian insults a pagan village for their unbelief, and in the last episode I watched, Holo scoffs at humans for "thinking one God really did everything."
And that was enough to make me stop watching. :I

[blkmage]

Lots of people have said stuff about Spice and Wolf over here.

Actually, Horo does like wearing clothes (and very expensive, fancy clothes at that) and remains that way for the rest of the series. And I'm not sure what you were expecting a pagan goddess of the harvest to say about the Church. I'll repost what I've said about how Christianity is portrayed in Spice and Wolf.

Spice and Wolf is set in a fictional medieval European setting. Any opinion on the God and the Church that's presented in Spice and Wolf has to be taken in understanding the layperson's impressions of God and the Church during that period in history and the fact that the Church in medieval Europe was not the nicest institution. The Church dominated life in medieval Europe and it abused its authority. Average people are very aware of this fact and aren't exactly pleased with that. The Church is more of a political institution in Spice and Wolf and God and religion are used by the Church (like it did in historical medieval Europe) to bludgeon people into submission and their thoughts on God reflect this.

Ultimately, Spice and Wolf's portrayal of Christianity is one that attempts to be historically accurate, particularly in the Church's influence on society in that time. It would be foolish to blow it off as a negative depiction of Christianity when it is, in fact, modelled after the real-world Church's unfortunate history.

Anyway, I love Spice and Wolf. It's got a unique setting that isn't often explored in anime and it's got some of the best characters and character development in anime. The interactions and dialogue between Horo and Lawrence are incredibly charming and their relationship is one that's developed realistically.

[Beau Soir]

Well, I definitely feel ignorant. XD I did like just basically everything else about the show... so I'll take your (and that thread's) word for it, and perhaps try watching Spice and Wolf again with that bit of history in mind.

[DeusVult]

I read about this on The Escapist recently, and was wondering if anyone here had seen it and what they thought about it? I'm still debating whether or not to go and watch it.

Watch it! The nude raised some eyebrows on me but its only during those 1st episodes. And like others have said there's really no detail and to me it's not much different than say The Lil Mermaid. It's really a charming series that focuses greatly on the two characters. Both Spice and Wolf and the sequel are in my Top 10.

Lots of people have said stuff about Spice and Wolf over here.

Actually, Horo does like wearing clothes (and very expensive, fancy clothes at that) and remains that way for the rest of the series. And I'm not sure what you were expecting a pagan goddess of the harvest to say about the Church. I'll repost what I've said about how Christianity is portrayed in Spice and Wolf.

Ultimately, Spice and Wolf's portrayal of Christianity is one that attempts to be historically accurate, particularly in the Church's influence on society in that time. It would be foolish to blow it off as a negative depiction of Christianity when it is, in fact, modelled after the real-world Church's unfortunate history.

Anyway, I love Spice and Wolf. It's got a unique setting that isn't often explored in anime and it's got some of the best characters and character development in anime. The interactions and dialogue between Horo and Lawrence are incredibly charming and their relationship is one that's developed realistically.

This is basically how I perceived it. As more historically accurate depiction rather than a put down of Christianity.

[SnoringFrog]

I started watching it tonight, I'm in the middle of episode three now. I see what y'all meant about the nudity, but since it's not detailed it's not too big of a deal to me (as long as no one else sees it, lol. It might not go over so well then.)

It is definitely interesting. I'm liking the characters thus far. Well, Holo, at least, Laurence still seems a tad bland to me, but he shines more during their interaction. I like Holo's mood changes, they're varied enough to make her interesting but not unbelievable. She'll go from cute and playful to flirty to serious and deep then back into having difficultly readjusting to being human or having one of those "apple" moments that bring some more light into the series. Also, the other focus of economics (which drew me to the series, even though I hated econ. as a class, it seemed like an interesting premise for an anime) has been much better than I expected it to be. Definitely a good series.

[Midknight74012]

Just keep watching it and trust me, its get real interesting real quick. I've watched it 2 times and still like it. Can't wait to get my hands on the Dubbed version.

[Wikiwalker]

Like Mid says, Spice and Wolf is a terrific show if you just stick around.

[Song_of_Storms]

[SIZE="1"]You see, Snoringfrog, anime is full of naked women, and men who defend the fact these women are naked. Who really cares if there is no "detail"? Nudity is nudity. The fact is people are going to justify what they don't want to give up. If Holo likes clothes so much she should try wearing them.

How can Holo's words NOT be taken as a smite against the Church and God? The Church was established by God, so any such remarks are direct insult to Him. Your statement was incorrect, blkmage. The Church did not, as you suggest, "bludgeon people into submission". This secular portrayal of the Church during the middle ages in simply an assault against Christ. The Church during the middle ages was not a gigantic, evil force determined to wreak havoc and destroy the consciousness of the masses. Since God established the Church, it is only natural that atheistic, anti-Christians should desire to destroy the foundation of Christianity, the Church.

If, for arguments sake, we ignore all the blatant facts about the truth of the Church, then there is still little Holo to deal with. Oh, my! She just called all
Christians morons for believing in ONE God! Because, you know, worshiping everything else in the world makes a whole lot of sense. Oh, wait...
Holo is supposed to be a Goddess. (Who likes clothes, but doesn't wear them) In true fashion to anime, you'll find anything related to God or Catholicism is inferior, as the main character spouts some belittling nonsense about them that we're suppose to agree with.

I've gathered a few Scriptural passages that relate to the discussion... actually, its been more of a "let's all agree the Church was evil and Holo is perfect". I'm so glad I don't get my history from anime, especially after Spice and Wolf's 'historically accurate' inaccurate portrayal of one of the most influential moments in Christendom.

Spice and Wolf has a few things going for it, however. The animation is crisp and bright, quite beautiful, actually. The opening song is a personal favorite, and sets the mood of the series quite well. Holo has cute animals ears and a tail, which is adorable. X3

Matthew 28:18-20
Jesus came forward and addressed them in these words: “[color="Purple"]Full authority has been given to me both in heaven and on earth: go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations. Baptize them in the name
of the Father.
and the Son.
and the Holy Spirit.
Teach them to carry out everything I have commanded of you. And know that I am with you always, until the end of the world![/color]”

Matthew 16:18-19

“[color="purple"]I for my part declare to you, you are “Rock”, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven: whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven[/color].”

John 16:13 - [color="purple"]The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit into all truths
When he comes, however, being in the Spirit of truth he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but will speak only when he hears, and will announce to you the things to come[/color].

Luke 10:16

“[color="purple"]He who hears you, hears me. He who rejects you, rejects me. And he who rejects me, rejects Him who sent me[/color].”

St. Irenaeus (c. 200 AD )
“...the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated throughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart: and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth.”

Eusibius of Caesarea (4th century)

“But the brightness of the Catholic Church proceeded to increase in greatness, for it ever held to the same points in the same way, and radiated forth to all the race of Greeks and barbarians the reverent, sincere, and free nature, and the sobriety and purity of the divine teaching as to conduct and thought.”

St. Augustine (392 AD)

“The Catholic Church is the work of Divine Providence, achieved through the prophecies of the prophets, through the Incarnation and teaching of Christ, through the journeys of the Apostles, through the suffering, the crosses, the blood and death of the martyrs, through the admirable lives of the saints... When, then, we see so much help on God’s part, so much progress and so much fruit, shall we hesitate to bury ourselves in the bosom of that Church? For starting from the apostolic chair down through successions of bishops even unto the open confession of all mankind, it has possessed the crown of teaching authority.”

St. Irenaeus

“For where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God, there the Church and ever grace. The Spirit, however, is Truth.”

Scripture that speaks about the authority of the Church:

Matthew 18:17
John 20:23
I Corinthians 11:23-24
Luke: 10:16
Matthew 28:18-20
Matthew 16:18-19
John 16:13

Scripture that informs us the Church is the Body of Christ:

Colossians 1:18
I Corinthians 12:20-27
Ephesians 5:30
Romans 12:4-5
I Corinthians 6:15

Scriptures that inform us the Church is one:

John 10:16
John 17:17-23
Ephesians 4:3-6
Romans 16:17
I Corinthians 1:10
Philippians 2:2
Romans 15:5
John 17:23
I Corinthians 12:13
Romans 12:5
Ephesians 4:4
Colossians 3:15

Scriptures that inform us of the Church’s infallibility:

John 16:13
John 14:26
Luke 10:16
I Timothy 3:15
I John 2:27
Acts 15:28
Matthew 28:20[/SIZE]

[Etoh*the*Greato]

I'm gonna try and go into this without entering Theological grounds, since we're talking history here. The people you're citing are all lovely people, and I respect them dearly, but they didn't live in the time period in question. The church was a highly political and in several places sorely corrupt institution at this period in time. Why would Luther seek reformation, otherwise? Why fix what's not broke? It's not just a secular view either. I'm a student of the topic (having graduated with a ministry degree, and looking to combine it with history degrees to teach Church history), but an admitted fact. We have sources to verify it. Good sources. Religious and secular both. The Church is God's institution, no one argues that, but a lot of evil has been committed in our Lord's name by people looking to use the powers granted by His offices for their own ends.

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding here. Storms, no one is accusing Christanity of being an evil thing. There is merely notation that humans are what they are and some of them have used positions of power to do wrong. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and having the Church as the biggest political force on the continent was probably one of the worst things to happen to us.

[blkmage]

It seems that you've misunderstood many of my points.

I have never said that I endorsed or agreed with anything that Holo or anyone said about the Church. I only stated that their statements made sense in context of the time period that the story was set in and was consistent with their character (of course a goddess would deny that there's one God). I also said that this shouldn't be a deterrent to watching this show, unless you're suggesting that we not watch any show in which a non-Christian behaves like you'd expect a non-Christian to behave.

An aside about her state of dress when we first encounter her. She's been living literally in the wheat for hundreds of years. Of course when she first turns into a human she's not going to have clothes on. She gets clothed at the earliest convenience (after raiding Lawrence's wardrobe) and stays clothed for the rest of the entire series. Again, context.

Secondly, your perception of church history is a little off. The period of time in which I mentioned that the Church abused its authority was not in 200-500 AD like your quotes from famous Christians suggest, but from 800 to the early 1500s. In fact, it's this abuse of authority by the Church that ultimately led to Martin Luther starting the Protestant Reformation. Unless you're claiming that Luther (and other such figures in the Church) was blaspheming by criticising the Church, I'm not sure how you can claim that the Church is infallible and above reproach.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

Pope Urban II, March 1088 to July 1099, initiated the first crusade actively encouraging ideas of racial superiority and genocide. It was a political move, a response to the Byzantines who were a then-rival of the Catholics (being two separate Christian groups - the scandal!). Their rivals finally needed their help and were welcoming to come in to a situation that would be commercially advantageous considering that the pilgrimage routes they were securing were also major trade lanes. It was also used to cement the Church's power base by creating a short-live religious fervor based around the idea that killing muslims would grant even lowly footsoldiers forgiveness for all the murder they committed on the battlefields back home.

Additionally, did you know he was a proponent of the idea of clerical celibacy? Nothing wrong with that in and of itself, I suppose. Except that Priests were often married at the time, so those who were found married or otherwise "impure" were imprisoned and tortured, removed of their vestments, and he had their wives and children sold into slavery at his command.

[Fish and Chips]

[SIZE="1"]You see, Snoringfrog, anime is full of naked women, and men who defend the fact these women are naked. Who really cares if there is no "detail"? Nudity is nudity. The fact is people are going to justify what they don't want to give up. If Holo likes clothes so much she should try wearing them.

She does. At the end of episode 1.

And in episode 2. And in every episode after that, I'm pretty sure.

As for your comments on the Church, I'm afraid Etoh is correct. The Catholic Church is infamous for its historical ineptitude and laced corruption in the Medieval period, as well as a strong, occasionally violent stance against those who fell beyond the boundaries of its faith, such as Pagans and later even Protestants, a far cry from what Jesus envisioned his church to be. The selling of clerical offices (simony) to people with no theological background or education, the unsound principle of indulgences, torture, and even assassination were all claimed, abused, and misused in God's name. It's an unfortunate black spot in the history of Christianity.

Christ is infallible. His church, unfortunately, historically less so.

[Song_of_Storms]

[SIZE="1"]What in the WORLD does the Crusades have to do with anime?
You talk about citing and respecting people, yet you condemn the forefather's of the Church? All their work and toils, they dedication and love for Christ have been completely dismissed due to several false accusations and misunderstandings.

The Crusades were not a war for Catholic superiority, and it defiantly wasn't political or prejudice. The Crusades were instituted in order to reclaim the Holy Lands, which had since been taken under control by the Muslims. (about 600-700 A.D) In the early centuries after Christ, a majority of Bethlehem was Christian. Even though the Muslims had forced their way in, they still allowed Pilgrims into the Holy Land. It wasn't until they began attempts to forcibly convert Christians did the notion of the Crusades begin.
The Crusades had nothing to do with "racial" issues. The Church at that time, as it is today, was a universal operation with Christians from every race, culture and ethnic.

There was no guarantee of salvation bestowed onto the Crusaders. They fought for their faith, and the desire to protect the history of that faith. It's funny you should say that, because one of the few mortal sins is murder.

I've heard similar accusations.
Priests did not then, as they do not now, enter into the sacrament of marriage. Priests dedicated their their lives to Christ, so in a sense they married the Church.
You honestly believe such nonsense? It sounds like the making of a paper-back novel. The Church has always been against slavery, so the idea of selling people, especially children, is comical.

No, Luthor's reformation began because he could not grasp the concept of the Eucharist. It had nothing to do with Church power. Luthor "fixed" that which was not broken. Luthor's reformation was because of his own arrogance, he couldn't accept what Christ himself talks about on numerous occasions.
The founding Father's of the Church believed what the Catholic Church believes to this day. Why would those closest to Christ, those who actually walked with him, be ignorant of something of such great magnitude? Also, why would it have taken so many years for one single individual to finally decide "Guess what? Everything you've known, everything that has been passed down is an utter lie. I, on the other hand, am more knowledgeable then all the predecessors of the Church."

And I think you've misunderstood my point. Did I say that? No, I didn't. Luthor did commit a heresy, because he turned his back on Christ's own words. Not surprisingly, I'm under the assumption the Church is infallible because Christ himself says so. Christ is in the Church, and as such the Church cannot contradict itself or Scripture. [/SIZE]

[Nate]

[SIZE="1"]Luthor did commit a heresy, because he turned his back on Christ's own words.[/SIZE]

Man at least I TRY to skirt around theological debate half the time or keep it civil. This is like...blatantly attacking someone's faith for no good reason except to attack it.

Yeah this is a pretty good example of why theological debate is against the rules I'd say.

[Radical Dreamer]

Okaaayy! Time to pull this thread back on topic. Please take all further discussion of this topic to PM.

[Fish and Chips]

EDIT: Started writing this post before Radical Dreamer posted. My apologies.

The Crusades were not a war for Catholic superiority, and it defiantly wasn't political or prejudice. The Crusades were instituted in order to reclaim the Holy Lands, which had since been taken under control by the Muslims. (about 600-700 A.D) In the early centuries after Christ, a majority of Bethlehem was Christian. Even though the Muslims had forced their way in, they still allowed Pilgrims into the Holy Land. It wasn't until they began attempts to forcibly convert Christians did the notion of the Crusades begin.
The Crusades had nothing to do with "racial" issues. The Church at that time, as it is today, was a universal operation with Christians from every race, culture and ethnic.

The Crusades were sparked by renewed Islamic aggression from the Turks. After the initial wars that swept across the Middle East, North Africa, and the Southern and Eastern tips of Europe, the Muslims and Christians actually got along pretty handily, even permitting Christian pilgrims to visit various holy sites, including Jerusalem. However, with the conquest of the Turks over the existing Arabian states, they decided to break the long standing understanding and attempt to take Constantinople. Constantinople, summarily, called upon Pope Urban II to call the European nations to arms to defend his city. Pope Urban II, in turn, took it as an opportunity to declare war on the whole of the Islam world, framing it as an excuse to take back the holy land. It was an incredibly political affair, almost completely separated from religious context.

This was further established later on, when the very Christian nations Constantinople called upon to save her sacked her instead, leaving her weak for the eventual take over by Muslim forces.

No, Luthor's reformation began because he could not grasp the concept of the Eucharist. It had nothing to do with Church power. Luthor "fixed" that which was not broken. Luthor's reformation was because of his own arrogance, he couldn't accept what Christ himself talks about on numerous occasions.

Luthor did commit a heresy, because he turned his back on Christ's own words. Not surprisingly, I'm under the assumption the Church is infallible because Christ himself says so. Christ is in the Church, and as such the Church cannot contradict itself or Scripture.

Adhering to CAA's policy about not debating theology, I will cheerfully attempt to skirt this topic, except to point out that the majority of this site's membership is actually Protestant, so really, you may wish to reconsider your words.

[Yamamaya]

I'm not going to drag this thread down into theological discussions any more than is necessary, but I will address this nudity issue.

The nudity in Spice as far as I can tell lasts for only one episode and is not detailed and it is practical. If you're going to condemn it, you'll have to condemn Michaelangelo's David as well.

Speaking of which, I need to watch Spice and Wolf soon. It interests me.
You pretty much said what I was going to say about the Crusades Fish.

[Falx]

To be perfectly accurate, the episodes Holo appears nude in are: (First season only)

Approx. 50% of the first
Approx. 05% of the second
Approx. 05% of the last

The second season the only time she ever shows any skin is a few seconds of the OP.

In the interests of being objective and staying true to our beliefs I will say this: If you do not feel that you will be comfortable watching something, then don't. No matter what anyone else says, even if it is one of your Christian brothers recommending it. We are all uniquely created by God, and our fleshly weaknesses are also unique.

What is without consequence to one, is a deadly trap set by the Adversary to another. So if you are uncomfortable with the undetailed nudity, please stay away from this series... I would rather you miss the best series ever made then stain your spirit with something you could have avoided, for in the end... no matter how brilliant a show is, it pales in every way conceivable when measured against Him and His Glory.

I guess that's all I have to say.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

Falx brings up an exceptionally reasonable point. If it will cause one to stumble, then it is best for them to avoid it. Just bear in mind that what is a trap for one may not be a trap for others. This is nothing to do with the quality of one's faith being "greater" just simply that different people have different threshholds.

What is interesting to me is that Horo's nudity is treated in an entirely non-sexual way. The character is snippy and tomboyish, and if not for (I'm guessing as I've not seen but half the show) the societal need for a love-story the character would have been just as well served to be a man (Minus that whole being a fertility deity). This is contrasted with the character Chloe in the series who remains fully clothed at least up to where I'm watched and who makes open advances on the character Lawrence (who subsequently turns her down). I would go so far as to say that Horo is not even treated as a sexual object in the 'moe' sense where we are meant to feel protective of her. Just the opposite. She's smart, capable, and more than able to defend herself - more than what Lawrence could do for her even though he does at one point have to participate in an impromptu rescue. He hardly saves the day.

Again, though, this is all based on the first half of the series. I've not seen the second.

Edit: Also worth noting, the man who wrote the textbooks I used in my church history courses was Catholic.

[Wave]

For what it's worth I watched the whole first season and enjoyed it immensely. I found it a very unique and refreshing. Never before have I seen an anime where they discuss such things a currency exchanger rates and how currency is valued, bank notes and the like. I also thought the creators struck an interesting balance with Horos (Holos) character. She ageless and wise, yet seemingly young and playful at the same time. An interesting mix.

So if you think you can handle the nudity, and the anti church redirect, I would recommend this show.

\/\//\\///

[SnoringFrog]

To be perfectly accurate, the episodes Holo appears nude in are: (First season only)

Approx. 50% of the first
Approx. 05% of the second
Approx. 05% of the last

The second season the only time she ever shows any skin is a few seconds of the OP.

And in the theme song of each episode. Easily skipped without missing anything (or just looked away from, if you have a media player like mine that crashes my computer when I try to fast forward/rewind in this series).

I had other things to say in response to some posts in this topic, but I'll just forget them now. Not really important I suppose. I can't wait to get back into this series, school work dragged me away. I'm on episode 5 or 6 now, I believe. Back to back long weekends should help me knock most of the remaining episodes out, and hopefully get a review written for it too.