I just finished watching the best anime I've ever seen!

[Yamamaya]

Yoko was also a very fanservicy character from Gurren Lagann. If you are going to complain about Kallen, then you have to complain about Yoko as well.

I found the rampant advertisments for pizza quite funny actually.

[LadyRushia]

I agree with you there, Fish. I think for me, the strength of the female characters, especially Kallen, outweighed their over-sexualization so I didn't find it as distracting as you did (and I'm by no means saying you shouldn't find it distracting or problematic). That tends to be how I react in general. If a character is stronger than her marketing, then it's easier for me to pay less attention to the latter. Even still, looking back at my watching experience, I remember thinking "Are you serious?" during many of those fanservice moments.

I complain about Yoko. I complain about any female character who's subject to fanservice, yet they tend to be my favorites because they're good characters. It also helps that Kallen and Yoko's personalities don't line up with the way they're marketed. I think that's another reason why I can easily separate those two aspects most of the time.

[goldenspines]

Yoko was also a very fanservicy character from Gurren Lagann. If you are going to complain about Kallen, then you have to complain about Yoko as well.

I found the rampant advertisments for pizza quite funny actually.

But this thread is not about Gurran Lagann, it's about Code Geass.

Fish made some great points about the series. And I agree with all of them.
I still watched and enjoyed the series, but it could have done without all the fanservice and C.C., who served no purpose whatsoever besides giving Lelouch his power, but he could have gotten it elsewhere easily.

[Yamamaya]

I am merely saying that the same could be said of many other "good" anime series.

I disagree with the fact that CC served no purpose. She was one of the few people who drove Lelouch on and stayed by his side when the Geass began to isolate him from other people. She was his only true confidant.

[Fish and Chips]

Yoko was also a very fanservicy character from Gurren Lagann. If you are going to complain about Kallen, then you have to complain about Yoko as well.

I do, actually.

The difference, however, is that Code Geass wants you to take it seriously, whereas Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann doesn't. Gurren Lagann gets away with a lot of stuff that would (and does) come off as ridiculous in Geass, just like Geass could conceivably (conceivably) pull off some drama the likes of which would be totally inaccessible to a series like Gurren Lagann. So both Kallen and Yoko suffer from being fanservice bait, which isn't really excusable, but because Code Geass is the one who tries to convince us Kallen is a deeper character, they're the ones who fall harder when they trip over their own argument. Arguably Yoko is just as bad, but since Gurren Lagann doesn't try to sell us anything, it's less noticeable when she lapses (and comparably draws more attention when she does do something deeper than her assumed role).

The only reason I don't complain about her is because everyone's basically on the same page as far as Yoko's concerned.

[Yamamaya]

They also attempted to make Yoko a deeper character(through her whole teacher thing and her love life.)

Fanservice characters are just something you'll run into a lot if you watch any anime. You just have to take it in stride. Besides, the directors know that their fanbase generally likes fanservice, so they give it to them.

[LadyRushia]

I still watched and enjoyed the series, but it could have done without all the fanservice and C.C., who served no purpose whatsoever besides giving Lelouch his power, but he could have gotten it elsewhere easily.

I actually think C.C. is an interesting character. In the first season, we get hints that there's a lot more to her than what we see, but we don't really find anything out. I don't know if we find out more in the second season (and whether we do or don't I'd rather find out for myself, so please don't say either way), but I think the mystery surrounding her makes her interesting. Plus, as Yamamaya said, she does stay with Lelouch no matter what. In general, I don't think there's a useless character in the series and I think that's due to good character development.

[MasterDias]

The fanservice in Code Geass was rather blatant at points, but you can still find more fanservice-heavy material even in this genre. Not that I'm trying to excuse it. However, the fanservice seemed to be toned down a bit in R2 when they changed to an earlier time slot, bunny-suit Kallen aside.

I was honestly rather surprised, given the fanservice in Geass and some other Sunrise shows, that Gundam 00 actually had very little.

@Fish and Chips/Roy Mustang: I'm sort of assuming you guys didn't like Full Metal Panic either? Since that's basically High School Comedy + Serious Mecha although pulled off more consistently than Code Geass.

[blkmage]

The fanservice in Code Geass was rather blatant at points, but you can still find more fanservice-heavy material even in this genre. Not that I'm trying to excuse it. However, the fanservice seemed to be toned down a bit in R2 when they changed to an earlier time slot, bunny-suit Kallen aside.

I was honestly rather surprised, given the fanservice in Geass and some other Sunrise shows, that Gundam 00 actually had very little.

@Fish and Chips/Roy Mustang: I'm sort of assuming you guys didn't like Full Metal Panic either? Since that's basically High School Comedy + Serious Mecha although pulled off more consistently than Code Geass.

Unless I'm terribly mistaken, I don't think Gundam was ever the venue for fanservice, especially not with the hardcore Gundam fans lingering about.

As for FMP, isn't it deliberately trying to be both mecha and comedy? I'd imagine if that's the goal then it won't turn out poorly.

[Nate]

When you do a reveal, no matter how shocking or unpredictable it is, people have to be able to see where it came from in hindsight. The reveals in Code Geass were only shock with no reasoning behind it. This is bad, because it breaks suspension of disbelief and instead of feeling shock, people are left going lolwut.

To clarify what blkmage is saying, let's look at an example.

Let's say we're watching a classic movie, Ghostbusters. The movie is exactly the same, but in this version at the end the Ghostbusters rip off human masks and reveal themselves to be aliens and say "NOW OUR PLAN TO CONQUER THE WORLD IS COMPLETE."

That's unpredictable and shocking, isn't it? But it's also mind-numbingly and absolutely STUPID. The movie would have zero setup to this, no hint would be given that this would even occur. It's only unpredictable because it comes out of left field and has no purpose EXCEPT to be unpredictable.

GOOD unpredictable plot twists are foreshadowed and make sense in the context of the medium. Bad plot twists are not.

[MasterDias]

Unless I'm terribly mistaken, I don't think Gundam was ever the venue for fanservice, especially not with the hardcore Gundam fans lingering about.

That depends on the Gundam actually. I don't think you will be able to convince me that some/much of the nudity in older Gundam series wasn't fanservice. 08th MS Team, one of the series that is generally loved by the hardcore UC fans, actually has a more blatant example of this.
Also, Gundam Seed...the last AU before 00...did have some pretty obvious examples of fanservice.

[Roy Mustang]

@Fish and Chips/Roy Mustang: I'm sort of assuming you guys didn't like Full Metal Panic either? Since that's basically High School Comedy + Serious Mecha although pulled off more consistently than Code Geass.

I have seen FMP and like it and yes it had high school comedy and serious mecha and it pulled it off and it was deliberately trying to be both mecha and comedy. Where Code Geass never give you an idea on what the heck it was after the start of R2.

[font="Book Antiqua"][color="Red"]Col. Roy Mustang[/color][/font]

[minakichan]

I disagree with you, Fish.

To say that Code Geass shouldn't have high school hijinks in a show that's about giant robots and terrorism is silly. Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo is essentially about the resistance combating an oppressive government, and it has nose hair jokes and squirrel drama. Fun fact: Code Geass and Bobobo are EQUALLY ABSURD.

The difference, however, is that Code Geass wants you to take it seriously, whereas Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann doesn't.

The main charater wears a flowing purple cape and a fluffy cravat while monologuing and making impossible hand gestures. How could you possibly say it takes itself seriously?

Essentially, what I'm trying to say is, to accuse Code Geass of being bad is like criticizing a soap opera of being superficial. That's the point.

[Yamamaya]

In addition, there were some hijinks in Evangelion, which is a very serious series.


The only real problem I have with Code Geass is the fact that R2 wasn't as coherent as the first season. It rambled on, going off in several different directions. However, it was still entertaining.

[Mr. Hat'n'Clogs]

In addition, there were some hijinks in Evangelion, which is a very serious series.


The only real problem I have with Code Geass is the fact that R2 wasn't as coherent as the first season. It rambled on, going off in several different directions. However, it was still entertaining.

This.

The biggest problem(besides the fanservice) to me with Geass was that it felt like the only real factor in most of the battles was who had the bigger mecha. One person on TVTropes complained about a scene in R2 when the response to Xingke's mecha easily defeating Chiba was to send out Kallen with little energy, and my thought was something along the lines of "But this is Geass, where all the generic mechs really serve no purpose other than to be blown up". This wasn't as bad in the first season, but it came to extreme levels in the R2. I think Todoh's line of "Now that we have Kozuki we can fight on equal ground" pretty much summed up my complaints.

[blkmage]

I disagree with you, Fish.

To say that Code Geass shouldn't have high school hijinks in a show that's about giant robots and terrorism is silly. Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo is essentially about the resistance combating an oppressive government, and it has nose hair jokes and squirrel drama. Fun fact: Code Geass and Bobobo are EQUALLY ABSURD.



The main charater wears a flowing purple cape and a fluffy cravat while monologuing and making impossible hand gestures. How could you possibly say it takes itself seriously?

Essentially, what I'm trying to say is, to accuse Code Geass of being bad is like criticizing a soap opera of being superficial. That's the point.

The difference is that I'm really skeptical that Code Geass was supposed to be intentionally hilarious.

[Fish and Chips]

Mina, I'm afraid Blkmage has beaten me on this one.

They also attempted to make Yoko a deeper character(through her whole teacher thing and her love life.)

I disagree. They tried to make Yoko an interesting character, which is not the same as deep, and inadvertently some depth snuck in.

To rephrase, Code Geass tries to present Kallen as a serious character, then undermines that when they throw in what Wikipedia apparently thinks is a running gag. Gurren Lagann tries to present Yoko as a silly character, then through the natural course of the plot stumbles into deeper waters, as if by accident.

Though it probably fits in there that Yoko isn't so much straight fanservice, per se, as simply Improbably Dressed for most of the series (baring a single, particular episode), compared to Kallen who at times makes even Yoko look modest. Still not too fond of Yoko anyway though. Nia's a much better character.

Fanservice characters are just something you'll run into a lot if you watch any anime. You just have to take it in stride. Besides, the directors know that their fanbase generally likes fanservice, so they give it to them.

I don't think that just because something exists I have to accept it as a staple of the genre.

@Fish and Chips/Roy Mustang: I'm sort of assuming you guys didn't like Full Metal Panic either? Since that's basically High School Comedy + Serious Mecha although pulled off more consistently than Code Geass.

That you are and right you are. Coincidentally, FMP! was the show that convinced me I wasn't a fan of this mixed genre, though since FMP! was trying to be ridiculous on purpose, that softens the blow somewhat.

In addition, there were some hijinks in Evangelion, which is a very serious series.

You seem to have a predilection for countering with big name Anime which it is assumed I watched, or enjoyed.

Fortunately, I did watch Evangelion and I did enjoy it, which isn't the point, but whatever. Suffice to say, the hijinx in that series were comparably downplayed, and usually didn't involve Shinji's class doing anything in particular.

Also, shock and awe, I actually like Shinji, whereas I find LeLouch insufferable.

[MasterDias]

To say that Code Geass shouldn't have high school hijinks in a show that's about giant robots and terrorism is silly. Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo is essentially about the resistance combating an oppressive government, and it has nose hair jokes and squirrel drama. Fun fact: Code Geass and Bobobo are EQUALLY ABSURD.

I... don't think comparing Code Geass to a show like Bobobo is a valid comparison.

Bobobo is a gag series. It's meant to be a silly comedy. CG, no matter how deliberately over-the-top certain scenes were, was intended to be taken at least somewhat seriously.

[LadyRushia]

I think all the dramatic extremeness in CG just goes along with the fact that it takes place in an extreme kind of world, so it's never come across to me as silly. There were a few times when I was like "Did that seriously just happen? That's ridiculous," but it was ridiculous and awesome at the same time.

[Yamamaya]

Mina, I'm afraid Blkmage has beaten me on this one.I disagree. They tried to make Yoko an interesting character, which is not the same as deep, and inadvertently some depth snuck in.

To rephrase, Code Geass tries to present Kallen as a serious character, then undermines that when they throw in what Wikipedia apparently thinks is a running gag. Gurren Lagann tries to present Yoko as a silly character, then through the natural course of the plot stumbles into deeper waters, as if by accident.

Though it probably fits in there that Yoko isn't so much straight fanservice, per se, as simply Improbably Dressed for most of the series (baring a single, particular episode), compared to Kallen who at times makes even Yoko look modest. Still not too fond of Yoko anyway though. Nia's a much better character.I don't think that just because something exists I have to accept it as a staple of the genre.That you are and right you are. Coincidentally, FMP! was the show that convinced me I wasn't a fan of this mixed genre, though since FMP! was trying to be ridiculous on purpose, that softens the blow somewhat.You seem to have a predilection for countering with big name Anime which it is assumed I watched, or enjoyed.

Fortunately, I did watch Evangelion and I did enjoy it, which isn't the point, but whatever. Suffice to say, the hijinx in that series were comparably downplayed, and usually didn't involve Shinji's class doing anything in particular.

Also, shock and awe, I actually like Shinji, whereas I find LeLouch insufferable.

I'm not going to comment on the Lelouch/Shinji remark as that would drag this thread into waters that violate the rules.

Anyway, you seem to think that fanservice=demeaning of the character. I happen to disagree. Fanservice is simply used to make the fanbase happy. The fact that she is used for fanservice does not effect her actual character. Imo, CG balanced the scenes of fanservice with Kallen and the serious scenes with her relatively well.

I think LadyRushida expressed my thoughts well. I mean Lelouch has a hax ability button and it's a mech world. Crazy things are bound to happen.

[Nate]

So portraying women as sex objects isn't demeaning to them? AWESOME.

[Yamamaya]

So portraying women as sex objects isn't demeaning to them? AWESOME.

It only effects the general affect of her character. It doesn't change who she is as a character. Is it silly and unnecessary? Of course. Does it destroy who she is or completely demean her character? I wouldn't say so.

[Nate]

lol wut

You can't ask an audience to take someone seriously as a character and consider them an actual human being in one moment and then reduce her to **** material the next. Portraying someone as a sex object does just what it says...makes them an OBJECT. Objects don't have thoughts or feelings, they exist only to give pleasure to people.

Someone cannot be simultaneously a character AND an object (barring strange things like say, Rescue Fire, where the vehicles are living things and have souls, but at the same time the team members treat them as living things and not objects, so that doesn't work as a comparison anyway).

If you've ever watched My Neighbor Totoro, there's a bath scene of the father with his daughters. There's some nudity, but it isn't meant to be sexual. They're not portrayed as sex objects. They're just having a bath and plot-related things happen during the scene.

If a series wants to portray a character as fanservice material, I have no problem with that, as long as they don't try to make her "deep and complex." If she's a one-note gag then that's fine. But you can't make her eye candy one moment and then expect me to take her seriously the next.

It'd be like trying to portray Wile E. Coyote as a tragic sympathetic character with a wife and kids who are starving to death, and then expecting me to laugh when he sets up a trap that backfires on him. It doesn't work.

[goldenspines]

Whoa, people, this derailed quite fast.
I am saddened to think that the original thread was ruined by people going off topic. Locked for now before anymore trouble spreads.

To the OP, please feel free to create a proper thread for Code Geass if you wish to continue sane discussion. ^_^