To Aru Majutsu no Index, a Christian perspective

[nanikore]

I do not need to state the obvious references to Christianity in the series To Aru Majutsu no Index, so I'll get right to the points I'd like to make for those who might be interested:

• [SIZE="2"]Magic and the actions of the church authorities:[/SIZE] The practice of magic in my opinion amounts to a great abuse of God's creation. The actions of the Church of England in the story (Disclaimer: fictional distinctions are of another topic- we will treat references of people, places, actions and events in the series as "real" within the world of the series) serve as an important illustration that the actions of a church and its constituents do not necessarily reflect the will of God. Would God want the Church of England to do what it did in the story? No- and the story actually reflects this as I will point out later. An very big example of this in our world would be the misdeeds of the Crusades, where corrupt bishops led a great many down a bloody path of slaughter (In post-Roman times there is a great "corruption", for the lack of a better word, in the supposed Christian constistuency, for Christianity become dilluted to become some kind of "fashion" as it was fashionable to be Christian at the time... Many were without the understanding what being a Christian entails or what being a Christian means) that would mar the history of the church forever. Such was the disobedience and willfulness of man, not of God.
• [SIZE="2"]The origin of super abilities (ESPers): [/SIZE]If people with these abilities exist, why would God create such anomolies for their abuse to occur? Christian theodicies regarding the existence and consequence of human free will and their role in the trials of humanity would say something akin to the following: The ESPers are brought into the world so that people would see that ultimately, they should place their destiny in the hands of God and not in their own. The powers given to them are abused on their own hands, thus the trials and tribulations. ESPers have the option not to use their power. They may think that they do not, but they do. (ref. the story of the "sisters" and the tests.)
• [SIZE="2"]The role of the Imagine Breaker:[/SIZE] The utterly unexplained and a power to dispel a calamity that is not of this world, The Imagine Breaker is God's remedy to the world's plague of magic and ESP. Not for man resort to magic or ESP which cause even more harm to come into the world, but to rely upon what could not be scientifically or rationally analyzed- an intervention of God. In this light, the worldly efforts of man (e.g. the Churches and the ESPer school) are rendered empty and fruitless, and the "Necessarius" utterly unnecessary. The grimoires should not have been sealed away within Index... In such way was the church organization's unchaste motives exposed. They should have been destroyed. Abuse should not be countered with more abuse, and genuine prayer for God's mercy and providance should replace diseased incantations of the occult.

[Shao Feng-Li]

So, what's this about...?

[Nate]

I figure it's about some anime.

Some anime named To Aru Majutsu no Index.

Other than that, your guess is as good as mine.

[LadyRushia]

Maybe context or a plot summary of said series would make it easier to understand?

[uc pseudonym]

The reference is to this franchise:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Aru_Majutsu_no_Index

It's the usual Japanese work loosely using Christian elements without really understanding them and with no particular care for the source material. If people want to use it as a discussion point for broader issues that's fine, but I think it's fairly mundane.

[Sheol777]

[MasterDias]

Yeah, trying to make an analysis of something without giving sufficient context is pointless.

But, man, I think you're seriously over-analyzing things. Speaking as someone who has seen it, the series isn't going to make much sense or hold up under any sort of critical analysis or application of real world principles. That wasn't what it was meant to be in the first place anyway.

[Tsukuyomi]

And how does this make you feel?

[minakichan]

Protip: lots 'n lots 'n lotsa anime aren't very Christian.

Except Chrno Crusade. Nuns + guns = SHYEAAAAH!

Index isn't quite at that level yet.

[Radical Dreamer]

And how does this make you feel?

This is my favorite post. XDDD I LOL'd. XD

Anyways, yes, context would be nice, for future reference. XD

[blkmage]

I suspect that the assumption here was that this thread was for people who were already watching it. I think the problem here is that most people here haven't.

[Nate]

Do we even have a review or any discussion threads about this anime? I dunno, just seems kind of weird to post a thread out of the blue on a series no one has even mentioned in passing on the site (that I can remember anyway).

Weirder still is that the purpose seems to be to explain stuff in the series that people would either have no problem with in the first place, or people that did have a problem with it would've stopped long ago and not bothered to continue. *shrug*

I looked it up on wikipedia. Like uc said, it looks like they basically took a bunch of Christian words and threw it into a manga without any rhyme or reason...for example, the Index-Librorum-Prohibitorum the series mentions is actually a list of books that were at one time banned by the Catholic Church, but Pope John Paul II abolished the Index in 1966.

Which makes no sense because in this anime the girl containing the Index is from the Church of England. Not only does the Church of England not have nuns (religious communities were abolished when Henry VIII dumped Catholicism), but they don't have an Index either...but even if they DID, they wouldn't use a Latin name for it, because it's the Church of England. Catholics are the ones who like Latin.

So yeah, just patchwork Christian things thrown together to sound cool and foreign to the people of Japan.

[nanikore]

It's for people who have seen the anime. Those who haven't can freely ignore it.

It's also not to explain any "problems" with the series. It is an attempt at weaving a Christian narrative out of it- Because the original clearly wasn't.

Obviously, the instance of "Church of England" as well as everything else in the series are fictional. Whichever implications the original author tried to make isn't important in this new narrative- I'm not trying to interpret the intent of the original author and I think that much is obvious.

If the narrative is deemed "pointless" then that's that- I have no obligation to make people see the point I'm making. Either a reader does, or does not.

[Raiden no Kishi]

It's also not to explain any "problems" with the series. It is an attempt at weaving a Christian narrative out of it- Because the original clearly wasn't.

Can you elaborate a bit on this idea? I'm not sure I completely understand your intent.

.rai//

[Tsukuyomi]

=nanikore (post: 1287407)It's also not to explain any "problems" with the series. It is an attempt at weaving a Christian narrative.

Perhaps by "narrative" you mean "review"? If that's the case. I'm pretty sure you're more then welcomed to do so You can use one of the other reviews as reference found here ^__^

[nanikore]

Can you elaborate a bit on this idea? I'm not sure I completely understand your intent.

.rai//

A narrative is a description of an event or a series of events from a certain point of view.

In this case, it would be a description of the events in this anime series from a Christian standpoint.

[Raiden no Kishi]

A narrative is a description of an event or a series of events from a certain point of view.

In this case, it would be a description of the events in this anime series from a Christian standpoint.

Thank you, I've actually heard the word "narrative" before and know what it means.

More to the point, are you attempting to apply real-life Christian philosophies and theology to a Japanese animated show? Because given the particularly low Christian population of the country and, as Nate mentioned, it being quite common for such shows to adopt Christian/Catholic imagery for stylistic purposes without any theological intent, that seems to me like reading a lot into the show that was never really there. Unless, of course, I'm missing something.

.rai//

[Fish and Chips]

I think I'm missing the part where Index is a heavily watched show on CAA, and thus relevant to public criticism and narrative. Maybe it's an underground sensation, quietly enjoyed by a number of our members in comfortable silence, but since only two people outside this thread have even mentioned it in passing, I tend to think not.

Then again since the first episode features that classic standby Females Sans Clothing, silence would be the optimum way to enjoy it, I suppose.

[Nate]

I don't see anything wrong with him applying real-life Christian philosphies to an anime, I've seen others do it on this site (didn't someone from this site write a Sunday School lesson plan about Haibane Renmei?).

I think the confusion on my side stems from him picking such an average anime that doesn't even really get its own facts straight, despite it being a fictional world. Haibane Renmei I can let slide, as it isn't really meant to be any sort of serious representation of the afterlife or the like, but when you use a definitive real-world counterpart such as "Church of England" you'd better get things right as far as I'm concerned. It'd be like me setting a TV show in Africa and have everyone be Italian. Yeah, it's fictional but...why make it so ridiculously out of tune with reality?

The biggest problem I have is with this (about the Imagine Breaker):

In this light, the worldly efforts of man (e.g. the Churches and the ESPer school) are rendered empty and fruitless,

From the wiki article I know what the Imagine Breaker is; it nullifies all psychic and magical activity. But to call it "God's remedy" seems a bit off to me. After all, the description says it also nullifies the main character's own good luck. I haven't seen the series so I'm not sure what nullifying his own good luck means, but certainly that isn't what anyone would classify as a good thing. If it were truly God's remedy, would it have negative or ill side-effects? Would it really screw over the person using it?

I don't think it would, and that doesn't sit well with me. If the Imagine Breaker were truly "of God" I don't think it would hurt the main character as it does (not physically hurt, but still). This of course also assumes that God exists in the fictional world of this anime, which may not even be true...remember Death Note in the first few chapters/episodes loved to talk about Heaven and Hell, only to find out in the end that neither existed. The church being run by greedy men and there being no real God is a common theme in many Japanese works (Final Fantasies X and Tactics come to mind immediately).

[uc pseudonym]

Everyone, let's take a step back - from this thread, if necessary. Give him the benefit of the doubt: say he really liked the series and wants to talk about it in a Christian context. It's fine for us to critique this methodology, but there is a point where this response becomes simple mockery.

Nanikore: I don't think you're going to get much of a response to a thread about a fairly obscure series. Normally I would try to respond to what you said to be nominally on topic, but the truth is that I dropped Aru Majutsu no Index pretty quickly because I didn't find it to be worthwhile. Please don't take this as an insult, but I think you're attempting to stretch relatively insubstantial content into a more meaningful framework.

[nanikore]

More to the point, are you attempting to apply real-life Christian philosophies and theology to a Japanese animated show? Because given the particularly low Christian population of the country and, as Nate mentioned, it being quite common for such shows to adopt Christian/Catholic imagery for stylistic purposes without any theological intent, that seems to me like reading a lot into the show that was never really there. Unless, of course, I'm missing something.
.rai//

As I have already stated in a previous reply (#13), I'm not trying to interpret the intent of the original author. Once an artist puts the art in public consumption, he or she can no longer claim ownership to any and all interpretation. The audience own their own- The art then services the audience, despite any intent of the artist. This is the freedom of interpretation.

I think I'm missing the part where Index is a heavily watched show on CAA, and thus relevant to public criticism and narrative. Maybe it's an underground sensation, quietly enjoyed by a number of our members in comfortable silence, but since only two people outside this thread have even mentioned it in passing, I tend to think not.

Then again since the first episode features that classic standby Females Sans Clothing, silence would be the optimum way to enjoy it, I suppose.

I'm not forcing anyone to read. Also, the relative import of any topic is subjective. In other words, it is of yours and my opinion.

From the wiki article I know what the Imagine Breaker is]

In Christian theology there is no such thing as luck- Everything proceeds according to God's plan. Also, note how in the series the main character stated himself that he has no regrets when it comes to the state of his life. He may grumble and complain, but to him he is not a victim of his appearently "unfortunate" circumstances. In the Bible, Job also complains of his life (ref. Book of Job), but he does not blame God (unlike his friends who either point their fingers of blame either at him, God, or both) for there is a purpose behind his circumstance.

In sum, God's remedy in the form of the Imagine Breaker is only a detriment to the main character on the surface.

Everyone, let's take a step back - from this thread, if necessary. Give him the benefit of the doubt: say he really liked the series and wants to talk about it in a Christian context.

THANKS!

Nanikore: I don't think you're going to get much of a response to a thread about a fairly obscure series. Normally I would try to respond to what you said to be nominally on topic, but the truth is that I dropped Aru Majutsu no Index pretty quickly because I didn't find it to be worthwhile. Please don't take this as an insult, but I think you're attempting to stretch relatively insubstantial content into a more meaningful framework.

I wouldn't take it as an insult at all; No one should expect others to like to dislike the same set of things.

However, it can be argued (and I believe it to be very apparent) that "stretching relatively insubstantial content into a more meaningful framework" happens all the time in the realm of art interpretation

[Raiden no Kishi]

As I have already stated in a previous reply (#13), I'm not trying to interpret the intent of the original author. Once an artist puts the art in public consumption, he or she can no longer claim ownership to any and all interpretation. The audience own their own- The art then services the audience, despite any intent of the artist. This is the freedom of interpretation.

I'll just leave this discussion by saying that's one way of looking at it and that the freedom to interpret inherently includes the freedom to be mistaken. I'm not claiming you're wrong (having never seen the series in question, I wouldn't know), but I'm sure you understand that Christianity itself is dependent on there being correct and incorrect interpretations of a work.

And with that, I'm off.

.rai//

[Nate]

In Christian theology there is no such thing as luck- Everything proceeds according to God's plan.

Yet the series does state that the Imagine Break nullifies his own luck. Then the narrative contradicts itself; even if we're treating this as solely fictional, things still have to work within their own fictional framework...meaning if there's luck, that would necessitate the absence of God.

Alternatively, the God of this series could be the same god of deism, who exists but takes no active part in creation. This would allow for god AND luck to coexist, but then makes the Imagine Breaker not created by god (since it would be him taking an active role in the world).

Again, not trying to discourage, and I feel weird discussing a series I've never even seen. But a narrative must at least play by the own fictional rules of its universe, and if the series explicitly states that luck exists, that's going to be basically a complete roadblock to any kind of Christian interpretation.

[Tsukuyomi]

There doesn't seem to be a review for this anime. Have you ever considered writing/typing up a review for To Aru Majutsu no Index? It also doesn't seem like a lot of others here have seen it ^ ^ it'll be a great help, and you'll get your own thoughts out about it ^__^

[nanikore]

I'll just leave this discussion by saying that's one way of looking at it and that the freedom to interpret inherently includes the freedom to be mistaken. I'm not claiming you're wrong (having never seen the series in question, I wouldn't know), but I'm sure you understand that Christianity itself is dependent on there being correct and incorrect interpretations of a work.

And with that, I'm off.

.rai//

Then again, the Bible isn't a piece of fiction.

Yet the series does state that the Imagine Break nullifies his own luck. Then the narrative contradicts itself]

It's only the characters that are giving statements regarding the existence of luck. That is, there's only no luck as far as their knowledge is concerned. There is no background narrator voice saying anything at all regarding it.

I'm the Christian narrator (see my original post), having the point of view that none of the characters inside the world of the story have privy of- and of course, the characters don't see everything that's going on around them... I have the priviledge as the audience to see what the characters can not see

As the Christian narrator, I would be the voice which say things akin to "Unbeknownest to them, luck has nothing to do with it..."

There doesn't seem to be a review for this anime. Have you ever considered writing/typing up a review for To Aru Majutsu no Index? It also doesn't seem like a lot of others here have seen it ^ ^ it'll be a great help, and you'll get your own thoughts out about it ^__^

I have not. Wikipedia seem to do a pretty good job at introduction... As for the series itself I'm not sure what I could say about it except that the production quality is pretty good (I like the music of I've Sound, which is probably why I ended up watching Rideback, Shana, Black Lagoon and all those other series with I've Sound music in them), and there was one lame episode which REALLY dragged (I don't know why they bothered putting it in, it was the worse filler I've ever seen with just two people talking back and forth- the episode was almost Dragonball-ish in execution... Sorry DB fans), and if seen from a Christian perspective it can be quite interesting, which is what I'm doing here. I guess if people have not seen it, they can give it a shot to see if they can stand it.

[LadyRushia]

Then again, the Bible isn't a piece of fiction.

This is irrelevant. Regardless of whether or not any work of writing is fiction, there is a correct and incorrect way of reading it. You don't read the Psalms like a recipe, nor do you read a biography like an epic poem. You also can't make the Bible, or any text for that matter, mean what you want it to mean. Context is everything, and that includes the intent of the author.

Back on topic, I can't make any comments on your view of this series because I haven't seen it. I see nothing wrong with seeing little bits of Christianity, or at least behaviors that also agree with Christian morals, in anime, manga, and video games. In fact, I love it when that happens because then I am reminded of God.

[MasterDias]

It's not really possible to write a review yet anyway, as it still has half-a-cour of episodes left.

My general opinion/mini-review of the series -> It has some fun characters and a potentially interesting premise, but it doesn't really live up to its setting. The series has so far alternated between "magic-side" stories about Index and various magicians and "science-side" stories about Mikoto Misaka and the espers of Academy City. The series has the tagline "When magic and science collide" but, so-far, the magicians only have significant roles in the "magic-side" arcs, and the espers only in the "science-side" arcs. In addition, it has some really awkward pacing and bits of wonky exposition at points.

Even though it's a 24-episode series, it almost feels like it's trapped in character-introduction mode of a longer shonen series.
The flaws are rather serious, but despite this, it still proves strangely enjoyable.

Content rating: 15+ - blood, (mostly) mild fanservice, questionable religious/occult imagery and themes

[Nate]

Context is everything, and that includes the intent of the author.

There was a time when I would have agreed with this statement, but now I'm not so sure. Part of the reason lies with Ray Bradbury and his (possible) senility.

Have you ever heard of Farenheit 451? It's one of his most famous novels, and is used in schools as an illustration of the horrors of censorship (the novel revolves around firemen who burn books "for the good of society," since reading is outlawed). Everyone who's anyone in the world of literary analysis will say it's about censorship.

However, Ray Bradbury in an interview said "Everyone who thinks it's about censorship is a moron, it's about how television will make people not want to read!"

So is every literary analysis that's used this book as an example of censorship wrong? Is Ray Bradbury's opinion really the only one that matters, even though it's ridiculous?

I think people can get something out of any piece of media that the creator never intended. Unless the meaning a person gets is contradicted by the story (for example, anyone trying to get any Christian meaning out of Philip Pullman's books would be contradicted by the fact that in the books God does not exist, but is a rogue angel), there really is no "wrong" way to interpret something. It may seem odd and strange, but unless you can use the story itself to prove them wrong, it's valid.

Such is my problem with this critique, as luck is acknowledged to exist and therefore contradicts any Christian interpretation (as luck and God cannot coexist).

You're welcome to your narrative, but I can't agree with it and think there are better series that would be usable for such a feat.

Though if the purpose is simply to illustrate Christian principles, I stand behind that (similar to using a three-leaf clover to represent the Trinity), but it seems you're going beyond simple illustration to "shoehorning" God into a story where He may not even exist (and probably doesn't, as shown by my Final Fantasy Tactics reference).

[nanikore]

This is irrelevant. Regardless of whether or not any work of writing is fiction, there is a correct and incorrect way of reading it. You don't read the Psalms like a recipe, nor do you read a biography like an epic poem. You also can't make the Bible, or any text for that matter, mean what you want it to mean. Context is everything, and that includes the intent of the author.

We're talking about a piece of fiction in this anime series, and there is no "correct way" of interpreting fiction. What you were speaking of isn't ways of interpretation but ways of classification.

On that front, I'm still reading the story in its classical form- A story; Not a poem or a recipe. Your objection does not apply here.

In fiction, context is determined by the audience. It is nonsensical to leave the context to the author, and I think Nate has explained why- Sometimes it is difficult or impossible to accurately judge the original intent of the author. Even if it is possible, why should the author's message dominate the discourse regarding the material at hand? Once something is produced (and art is a product) it is out there to be utilized- and the utility of any object is surely not limited to the intent of its producer. When the author speaks of something, any commentary regarding it is game. Surely, the author utilized the world at large as material, and of course the author does not own the world at large as his or her subject.

That is why it's important to distinguish fiction from non-fiction when it comes to interpretation.

[nanikore]

I think people can get something out of any piece of media that the creator never intended. Unless the meaning a person gets is contradicted by the story (for example, anyone trying to get any Christian meaning out of Philip Pullman's books would be contradicted by the fact that in the books God does not exist, but is a rogue angel), there really is no "wrong" way to interpret something. It may seem odd and strange, but unless you can use the story itself to prove them wrong, it's valid.

Such is my problem with this critique, as luck is acknowledged to exist and therefore contradicts any Christian interpretation (as luck and God cannot coexist).

As I have already stated, only the characters in the story have referred to luck. That alone does not contradict my narrative. There could very well be Christian stories were every single character complain about their "bad luck", because they don't know any better.

You're welcome to your narrative, but I can't agree with it and think there are better series that would be usable for such a feat.

Though if the purpose is simply to illustrate Christian principles, I stand behind that (similar to using a three-leaf clover to represent the Trinity), but it seems you're going beyond simple illustration to "shoehorning" God into a story where He may not even exist (and probably doesn't, as shown by my Final Fantasy Tactics reference).

I guess you have not seen the Angel Falls episode. That episode clearly acknowledges some sort of "Christian systematics" at work, however warped it may be. Even if my narrative say it may or may not be an angel, no one can use it to say that follows an overt atheist narrative (i.e. "There is no god at all" versus "God is strange/messed up"). Also, my narrative is not regarding representation- It is an interpretation of all the people and events in the story, a far cry from your "three-leaf clover" dismissal.