Question a friend asked...

[silent-wings]

So I was talking to a friend on the phone a few days ago and she brought up this question:

"Why does God allow, genocide, murder, and starvation? Why is the world this way?"

I answered something like, God gives us trails so we can learn from our mistakes, but I don't think that was quite the answer I should have given. I want some of your 2 cents about this question. I'm curious myself too, but I think I received 1/2 an answer tonight at youth. =)

Thank you and God bless!

[Kunoichi]

I could go into a huge theological reason and what not....but i read Lee Strobel's book "The Case for Faith" that was about interviews done with very intelligent men and woman (most best in their field) and addressed such questions. Might be a good place to start ^^

For the rest of my answer..please PM as it is personal *smile ty

[USSRGirl]

God doesn't - man does. I'd take a look at the first two chapters of Genesis with your friend - particularly the parts about death coming in to the garden through the fall and subsequent sections about bearing children in pain, having to work and kill to eat, being at the mercy of nature now instead of its steward. The fall sin, death, hardship, evil... God never created any of it. Satan did, man sealed the deal. God gave us all free will, and through the advent of free will disobedience was made possible. We're born from a polluted race, "bad genes." Sin isn't an act, it's a hereditary condition that affects the whole human race. I think your answer about trials was good but that's more relating why God tests Christians or how a Christian can react to situations. In my opinion it goes deeper than that.

Romans 5:12-14 is a good section for this: "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many."

God did not cause this - we did, and He allows it to go on until the last day so that out of mercy those who repent before then will be saved. The Bible also calls Satan the "prince of this world" making it clear that this is NOT God's world and that creation will be remade after this world is judged.

I'm guessing your friend might throw the "why did God give us free will if He knew we were gonna sin and screw things up" million dollar question at you. I tend to look at it like this; let's say you want your daughter to marry this awesome, wonderful, Mr. Perfect guy. You could arrange the marriage, force her into it because you really want her to have a great relationship like that, but would she be happy? Would she still love her husband WITHOUT choosing him? No, it would be a cold marriage. But if you let her out into the world and give her the freedom to choose whoever she wants, she could choose a real creep, but there's also a chance she'd choose Mr. Perfect in which case it would be out of love and not compulsion. I don't believe you can have love without free will, and God wants us to come to Him through love not compulsion.

So there's my 1.5 cents. Hope that helped some - praying that God will give you strength and guidance in sharing His word with your friend.

[Tsukuyomi]

There was a thread somewhere here on Caa that held an answer to this question,""Why does God allow, genocide, murder, and starvation? Why is the world this way?" It wasn't the same exact question, but pretty similar ^ ^

The answer they came up with was that, God didn't make things that way.. We did. Not you and I per se, but.. you know what I mean.

He gave us all life, so it's up to us to decide how we're going to live it ^ ^

Not sure if I strayed away from the subjet.. Sorry if I did ^__^

[Mr. SmartyPants]

The fact that man has fallen into sin enables man to further sin towards their fellow humans.

Why do bad things happen to good people? Well first off, by saying that you presuppose that all people are good. Not quite so when it comes to Christianity. XD

[Midori]

Yeah. If sin didn't hurt people it wouldn't be sin, right? And if God gives us free will, to choose to serve him, he also has to give us the choice to do bad things. If we lived in a world where your actions couldn't hurt people, you also wouldn't be able to show love and bring others to Christ by your actions.

'Least that's my interpretation. It covers genocide and murder, but not starvation or disease.

[silent-wings]

Wow, thank you everyone! =)

I got multiple of the same answers so that's just confirming the truth. =D

Next time I talk to my friend about this I'll be ready. ^^
Thank you for your help. =)

God bless you all!

EDIT: Kunoichi -Thank you for the book rec. =) I'll be sure to check it out. I prefer not to get into any personal things, but thank you for your offer. God bless you very much. =)

[Prince Asbel]

Yeah. If sin didn't hurt people it wouldn't be sin, right? And if God gives us free will, to choose to serve him, he also has to give us the choice to do bad things. If we lived in a world where your actions couldn't hurt people, you also wouldn't be able to show love and bring others to Christ by your actions.

'Least that's my interpretation. It covers genocide and murder, but not starvation or disease.

No offense meant towards those who, like Lee Strobel, say God must use free will to allow bad things to happen. But that's unbiblical. The man says that sinful man cannot submit itself to the law of God because he's not even able to do so. Surely, a position like free will between good and evil is not available for man. There is an alternative explanation, of course.

The way to show how God can allow these things to happen is to focus on the depravity of man. Man, by default, deserves nothing good, and everything bad- I.E. Hell. Hell is the ultimate suffering. Any moment outside hell is mercy from God's perspective. So since God allows people to spend any time at all outside hell is mercy. He's under no obligation to save a person dying of starvation when that person deserves much worse]People may wonder how God could still blame people for being enslaved to sin. Well, you may PM me about that if you wish, but I wish for this thread to focus on the question silent-wings's friend has.[/I]

The focus must not be "Why does God not provide for everyone?", it must rather be "Why doesn't God do much WORSE?" That's the mentality you need to take when you see bad things happening in the world.

[silent-wings]

Prince Asbel:
Wow, now that's a lot to think about. ^^; Thank you for explaining even further, I'm sure my friend will bring that up one day. =) I just have to keep praying for her, and not thump the Bible on her too much.
Thank you again and God bless.

[Prince Asbel]

[quote="silent-wings (post: 1264695)"]Prince Asbel:
Wow, now that's a lot to think about. ^^]

You're welcome.

Oh, and you're right. No bible thumping. I wish I had known not to thump the Bible when I talked to other people years ago. I really drove a person nuts one time when I talked to them about their involvement in witchcraft. If I could, I would travel back in time and smack myself in the back of the head for being such a jerk.

[silent-wings]

You're welcome. ]I[/B] had known not to thump the Bible when I talked to other people years ago. I really drove a person nuts one time when I talked to them about their involvement in witchcraft. If I could, I would travel back in time and smack myself in the back of the head for being such a jerk.

You just reminded me of something actually someone! I need to e-mail her. It's about Wicca (a totally different topic from this thread), but that's for another time. =) I'll post when I get around to it, or when it becomes eminent to do so. ^^; Thanks again!

[Midori]

Now that I think about it more, maybe bad things happen to good people partly to show that one's circumstances don't matter to one's salvation. A truly righteous person is righteous whether living in plenty or in hunger. After all, what's a little starvation when your treasure is in heaven.

[Prince Asbel]

Now that I think about it more, maybe bad things happen to good people partly to show that one's circumstances don't matter to one's salvation. A truly righteous person is righteous whether living in plenty or in hunger. After all, what's a little starvation when your treasure is in heaven.

It could be any number of reasons. Though that reason certainly wouldn't apply to someone who is not or never will be saved. One of the first things that comes to mind when bad things happen is God's justice. And God makes it a priority to demonstrate his justice just like he does his mercy. That's the explanation for why bad things happen.

Sorry, I'm probably ranting. But so few people seem to realize that God IS glorified in his justice, and turn God into some kind of lovey-dovey, mother-who-never-wants-to-punish-her-children kind of God.

[quote="silent-wings (post: 1264698)"]You just reminded me of something actually someone! I need to e-mail her. It's about Wicca (a totally different topic from this thread), but that's for another time. =) I'll post when I get around to it, or when it becomes eminent to do so. ^^]

That's just scary. The person I spoke to was a girl, and she was specifically into wicca!

[Kunoichi]

Now that I think about it more, maybe bad things happen to good people partly to show that one's circumstances don't matter to one's salvation. A truly righteous person is righteous whether living in plenty or in hunger. After all, what's a little starvation when your treasure is in heaven.

well as the Bible says, "Rain falls on both the good and the bad." I agree with you that the level of suffering we go thru on this earth is either miniscule in comparison to heaven and miniscule in comparison to the separation of God.

[Gabriel 9.0]

So I was talking to a friend on the phone a few days ago and she brought up this question:

"Why does God allow, genocide, murder, and starvation? Why is the world this way?"

I answered something like, God gives us trails so we can learn from our mistakes, but I don't think that was quite the answer I should have given. I want some of your 2 cents about this question. I'm curious myself too, but I think I received 1/2 an answer tonight at youth. =)

Thank you and God bless!

Its not his fault at all. He is sadden what goes on down here. Sin started with Satan when he rebelled and was banished from Heaven along with his fallen host.

Those horrible acts and others are from Satan, his fallen host and people who do not wish to be saved.

That's how I look at it anyway.

[Prince Asbel]

Its not his fault at all. He is sadden what goes on down here. Sin started with Satan when he rebelled and was banished from Heaven along with his fallen host.

Those horrible acts and others are from Satan, his fallen host and people who do not wish to be saved.

That's how I look at it anyway.

I disagree. God could stop it. He's not sitting around pouting about it as if he couldn't stop it. In one sense, his directive will (<--My terminology, not official) is violated in that people don't do everything his law says they should do, but on the other hand, his prescriptive will has decreed the bad actions of sinful man for his own purposes, I.E. To be punished, to make justice known to objects of his mercy, just plain for justice's sake, and a variety of others. God feels glorified in those things, not sad. For example, it was God's purpose for Joseph to be sold into slavery. That was a horrible act, and it was caused by God. It was his purpose to have him sold into slavery so that he could save many people alive. So I don't think God was disappointed or sad when that happened.

[Lengai]

That was a horrible act, and it was caused by God. It was his purpose to have him sold into slavery so that he could save many people alive. So I don't think God was disappointed or sad when that happened.

Whoa. Whoa. No, God did not cause Joseph to be sold into slavery. God does NOT cause sin. I don't believe God is in any way involved with creating or urging on evil. He allows it to happen, but he does not cause it. Anything otherwise would mar and contradict his nature of being Holy and Perfect. God does not commit or cause evils.

[quote]Psalm 5:4
You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil]

Joseph being sold into slavery by his brothers was a terrible, awful thing. God didn't cause that. He was with Joseph, though, and used his situation for good. He gave Joseph the dreams and knew how things were going to turn out, but he did not make or cause the brothers to react how they did. I don't believe God is ever 'disappointed'. He knows we're going to screw up, and nothing we can do will ever surprise Him. I do believe, though, that he grieves when we do ill or have ill done to us.

Evils in the world, I believe, are caused by the Fall. Our sin, the deterioration of the Earth and humans as we get closer to the End Times, and the spiritual forces of evil are all at work here. It's how God knows it going to go down. He could intervene, but it's not in His perfect timing to step in right now. This is not to say that he doesn't use suffering for good. He does, and, as C.S. Lewis said, "God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: it is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world."

The Israelites suffered at God's hand, you may say. But it wasn't for no reason. It was like any parent having to discipline their child. They were given time and time again to repent, and needed a stern wake-up from God. The had fair warning, and they brought God's wrath upon themselves.

Saying this, it's no surprise that I recommend Lee Strobel's The Case for Faith, as well.

In any case, as far as debating all this goes, it still remains secondary in the light of what God has done for all of us, right? We're brothers and sisters here.

[Prince Asbel]

Whoa. Whoa. No, God did not cause Joseph to be sold into slavery. God does NOT cause sin. I don't believe God is in any way involved with creating or urging on evil. He allows it to happen, but he does not cause it. Anything otherwise would mar and contradict his nature of being Holy and Perfect. God does not commit or cause evils.

Well, since man is totally depraved, I believe man is being restrained continually from making it dangerous to even walk outside your house every day. God restrains man's nature, and can use it in different ways. If God did not control the sin nature of certain men to act in certain ways, there would be no way he could ensure that Jesus would have been crucified.

Joseph being sold into slavery by his brothers was a terrible, awful thing. God didn't cause that. He was with Joseph, though, and used his situation for good. He gave Joseph the dreams and knew how things were going to turn out, but he did not make or cause the brothers to react how they did. I don't believe God is ever 'disappointed'. He knows we're going to screw up, and nothing we can do will ever surprise Him. I do believe, though, that he grieves when we do ill or have ill done to us.

That's not what Joseph said to his brothers. He said that they meant what they did for evil, but God meant it for good. That's a lot different from seeing something's going to happen, and then figuring out how to make something good come of it. That's God planning what would happen so he could bring about a better outcome. Remember, it's not injustice for God to do something like this, since every man including Joseph deserved hell from the beginning. I think when God kept Joseph's brothers from killing Joseph like they originally intended, and had them sell him into slavery so he could save many people alive, that he was pleased.

Saying this, it's no surprise that I recommend Lee Strobel's The Case for Faith, as well.

In any case, as far as debating all this goes, it still remains secondary in the light of what God has done for all of us, right? We're brothers and sisters here.

Right, but we can't let that drain the importance to the answer to these questions. And as brothers and sisters we are obligated to correct each other. The answer that people like Lee Strobel give is no explanation for the problem of evil, and gives no comfort to those who are enduring horrible things in their life. The answer can be so crucial, and that's why it should be debated. I remember hearing of someone giving a Lee-Stroble-non-answer to a child who was a victim of sexual abuse, and the child was stupified because God didn't stop it even though God didn't want it to happen and he could have stopped it anyways. Seriously, what kind of pathetic God is that?

[ADXC]

I know it's already been said, but the answer is man's depravity.

[Gabriel 9.0]

I disagree. God could stop it. He's not sitting around pouting about it as if he couldn't stop it. In one sense, his directive will (<--My terminology, not official) is violated in that people don't do everything his law says they should do, but on the other hand, his prescriptive will has decreed the bad actions of sinful man for his own purposes, I.E. To be punished, to make justice known to objects of his mercy, just plain for justice's sake, and a variety of others. God feels glorified in those things, not sad. For example, it was God's purpose for Joseph to be sold into slavery. That was a horrible act, and it was caused by God. It was his purpose to have him sold into slavery so that he could save many people alive. So I don't think God was disappointed or sad when that happened.

God did not cause Joseph to be sold into slavery man, his siblings who were tempted by Satan and were jealous of him are the reason why he was sold in the first place. After-all Lucifer accused God of being a tyrant for no reason and that his law was unfair, another reason why these bad things go on down here. To show how great Lucifer's government really is. Plus giving us all a chance to be saved.


Now it is true that the wages of sin are death and that transgressing the law of God is a sin. Fortunately though, for those that really want to serve God like you and me along with many others have a chance to go to Heaven.

Seeing the deaths of innocent people does sadden God, do you recall how he felt with his own son dying on the cross. God and the Heavenly host are indignant towards what Satan, his fallen host and people who seek no redemption commit, and they will face justice for such acts at Armageddon.

I mean I myself who was abused by my father for a entire year for no reason, by just seeking love from him, was not God's act. It was Satan's temptations and my father's acts sometime drunken sometime not. But I will not go into a past event of mine.

The thing is , yes bad things do happen. But they are not God's fault so he can be glorified, there are many other ways he is given glory.

Not saying you said anything related to my last sentence. Just thought I mentioned the above.

[Prince Asbel]

I'm sorry you were abused, Gabriel 9.0. And let me just say briefly what I'll say in more detail, I don't think God was making your father abuse you as if your dad wouldn't have done so anyway.

I agree they were tempted. But there's no mention of Satan. They were tempted because man is naturally sinful as can be, and if they wanted to sell Joseph as a slave, that's normal. I want it to be understood that I don't think God is poking someone in the back with a gun saying "Be evil! Be evil!" Man is evil by default, and he would do the absolute worst, disgusting, the most heinous acts of violence and abuse if God didn't restrain him.

But, he is not obligated to do that. And if he wanted to save tens of thousands of other people, he could lift his hand of restraint on the evil nature of Joseph's brothers in such a way that they would sell Joseph into slavery, thus sending him into Egypt, thus saving Egypt and the seed of Abraham. Plus, Joseph portrays what God wanted and what his brothers wanted working synonymously. So yes, he was involved, and he did INDIRECTLY cause him to be sold. The thing to keep in mind is that they would have done worse to Jospeh if it hadn't been for God.

So there you have the evil intentions of man, and the good intentions of God. God's purpose good, man's purpose evil. Man is justly judged, and God is glorified as his goal is attained by his control over the whole ordeal.

Again, think of the antithesis of this. Like I said to Lengai, a child who was abused was stupified because someone told him 1. God didn't want him to be abused 2. God could see it was going to happen and 3. Even though he could have stopped it, he didn't anyway. That is not the God of the Bible. God is not a weak, pathetic, whimpering, clean-up-after-the-mess kind of God. God is mighty, and he predetermines everything that happens for one good reason or another.

[Gabriel 9.0]

I'm sorry you were abused, Gabriel 9.0. And let me just say briefly what I'll say in more detail, I don't think God was making your father abuse you as if your dad wouldn't have done so anyway.

I agree they were tempted. But there's no mention of Satan. They were tempted because man is naturally sinful as can be, and if they wanted to sell Joseph as a slave, that's normal. I want it to be understood that I don't think God is poking someone in the back with a gun saying "Be evil! Be evil!" Man is evil by default, and he would do the absolute worst, disgusting, the most heinous acts of violence and abuse if God didn't restrain him.

But, he is not obligated to do that. And if he wanted to save tens of thousands of other people, he could lift his hand of restraint on the evil nature of Joseph's brothers in such a way that they would sell Joseph into slavery, thus sending him into Egypt, thus saving Egypt and the seed of Abraham. Plus, Joseph portrays what God wanted and what his brothers wanted working synonymously. So yes, he was involved, and he did INDIRECTLY cause him to be sold. The thing to keep in mind is that they would have done worse to Jospeh if it hadn't been for God.

So there you have the evil intentions of man, and the good intentions of God. God's purpose good, man's purpose evil. Man is justly judged, and God is glorified as his goal is attained by his control over the whole ordeal.

Again, think of the antithesis of this. Like I said to Lengai, a child who was abused was stupified because someone told him 1. God didn't want him to be abused 2. God could see it was going to happen and 3. Even though he could have stopped it, he didn't anyway. That is not the God of the Bible. God is not a weak, pathetic, whimpering, clean-up-after-the-mess kind of God. God is mighty, and he predetermines everything that happens for one good reason or another.

Thanks man , I've forgave my dad long ago and pray his soul will be saved. And yeah, he did say he regretted doing it.

That is true that mankind is sinful due us being born into sin.
But fortunately we have a chance to be redeemed.
And yes God isn't like that.

Indeed God was involved in delivering Joseph out of evil hands and later lead him to his true purpose.
I mentioned Satan, because sin started with him, and I feel he definitely had to have tempted Joseph's brothers, which unfortunately they gave into.
And given how he wishes to destroy every single human being, even that unfortunately serve him.

That is a very good point there, because in my own experience with my father, I was brought out of a ordeal that could have destroyed me.
I even fe;t hurt from what my dad did , however I now have much peace and happiness thanks to God.

[Prince Asbel]

[quote="Gabriel 9.0 (post: 1265212)"]Thanks man , I've forgave my dad long ago and pray his soul will be saved. And yeah, he did say he regretted doing it.

That is true that mankind is sinful due us being born into sin.
But fortunately we have a chance to be redeemed.
And yes God isn't like that.

Indeed God was involved in delivering Joseph out of evil hands and later lead him to his true purpose.
I mentioned Satan, because sin started with him, and I feel he definitely had to have tempted Joseph's brothers, which unfortunately they gave into.
And given how he wishes to destroy every single human being, even that unfortunately serve him.

That is a very good point there, because in my own experience with my father, I was brought out of a ordeal that could have destroyed me.
I even fe]

I'm glad for you, Gabriel. Seriously. It's not often I hear of someone who recovered from abuse as opposed to someone still suffering from it.

Anyway, I think I've made my points. I still don't think, Gabriel, that you understand that it was God's intention beforehand to send Joseph to Egypt, but I think I've said enough on that. I want to say real quick to the moderators that I know about the rules against theological debate here on CAA. It wasn't my intention to get on here and start a debate, but when such a critical question popped up, and I saw so many getting it wrong, I felt it would be wrong NOT to debate it.

As for Lengai and the others, I hope you think about what I've written. I'm sure you and others will be asked this question, and I pray you give a biblical answer. (I.E. Mine. )

[Gabriel 9.0]

[quote="Prince Asbel (post: 1265235)"]I'm glad for you, Gabriel. Seriously. It's not often I hear of someone who recovered from abuse as opposed to someone still suffering from it.

Anyway, I think I've made my points. I still don't think, Gabriel, that you understand that it was God's intention beforehand to send Joseph to Egypt, but I think I've said enough on that. I want to say real quick to the moderators that I know about the rules against theological debate here on CAA. It wasn't my intention to get on here and start a debate, but when such a critical question is asked and I see so many getting it wrong, I felt it would be wrong NOT to debate it.

As for Lengai and the others, I hope you think about what I've written. I'm sure you and others will get be asked this question, and I pray you give a biblical answer. (I.E. Mine. ]


Thanks again, it wasn't easy. Fortunately I'm the man I am today thanks to God.

I fully understand God wanted Joseph to go to Eygpt, sorry if I came across looking like I didn't. Currently I'm recovering from a cold and been making typos all day XD.