What kinds of fans scare you the most?

[Shadowalker]

Personally, I've never really understood this whole shonen ai/yaoi obsession that seems to overtake certain fandoms. And I've never understood why so many straight women and girls are so obsessed with it. Meh.

Some of it, I think, is just peer pressure of a sort, and wanting to look hip, cool, and "rebellious". However, I also think like ShatterheartArk does - some of it is simple perversion - it's just that straight men who are into yuri for, well, cheap thrills, are generally more up front and honest about it than straight women who are into yaoi for cheap thrills are.

No doubt some straight women do like yaoi for the "social justice for homosexuals" message that it somehow sends in their minds, or to be "hip and cool", but some of it really is cheap thrills I think.

minakichan - Thanks for the informative answer, and the reply! I'm glad that we see eye to eye on a lot of these issues. Yaoi does bother me a lot when I get a feeling that it's taking away from a perfectly good plutonic friendship between two male characters... or from a perfectly good rivalry between two male characters. The notion that "two rivals must secretly love one another" is simply absurd to the nth degree to me. Barring an exceptionally nasty break-up (and something severely wrong with one or both of the two partners), you don't try to kill the one you love...

[uc pseudonym]

uc pseudonym, I have heard some Naruto fans say that they feel that the characters of Naruto and Sasuke, as well as the interactions between them, have been impacted by fan commentary and even fanfics - that the manga/anime writer is actually altering the canon somewhat to please the fans.

I can see it, but then again the protagonist and his rival accidentally kiss in the first chapter... the motive may have been comedy, but I remain cynical. Also, I'm pretty sure that's the only kiss in the entire manga, three hundred chapters later.

THIS. IS. SO. TRUE and it really kind of pisses me off. There are mangaka who will change whole outcomes of stories just to please fans-- sometimes for the better, admittedly, but often for the worse. You should see what they do to Prince of Tennis, in the stage musical, especially-- stuff like Tezuka calling Echizen "Stupid... but cute" or having a song between Sanada and Yukimura called "First Love." (BUT I still stick with Tenimyu. There's really nowhere else you can find adult men dancing on a stage with tennis rackets in hand.)

As a writer this one bothers me a lot. Not just in how it relates to my fears about manga overall, but on a visceral level. This is why I don't worry as much about the US fandom, though, because they can't have much impact on the author (even if they aren't volumes behind).

[Mave]

Why yaoi?: Speaking on my behalf, it was probably a mix between being curious and seeking cheap thrills. It had nothing to do with social justice or being cool/hip. Sometimes, you just do stupid things when you're a teenager.

Naruto: I was so ticked off by that Sasuke/Naruto kiss in the first volume because it had no point apart for setting the mood for yaoi fans/future yaoi fans to be) <---- my personal opinion

Fanfiction.net: Heard about it, pop by just a little and left. Never went back. I'd rather read fanfics written by individuals I trust, including those written by members in CAA or those recommended by word of mouth (my friends would never recommend lemons/worse.)

Livejournal: It's not that bad, IMO. You just need to select the right community. The only LJ I go to is Royai (Roy X Riza). I do have to endure some risque images but from what I remember, there is barely any yaoi there. Yay.

With that said, I'm just glad to have CAA.

[minakichan]

Why yaoi?: Speaking on my behalf, it was probably a mix between being curious and seeking cheap thrills. It had nothing to do with social justice or being cool/hip. Sometimes, you just do stupid things when you're a teenager.

There are also adult women, married, with kids, who read yaoi (just as there are adult men, married, with kids, who read porn).

Concerning the social justice thing, I think that can be a hook, but it's never the main reason that fujoshi fall into that path. Think Brokeback Mountain-- many of the ladies, young and old, who went to see it did so not because they really wanted to see men suck face, but because (among other things) "Oh, it's about gay men! I feel so bad for them, always getting blasted by various homophobic bigots!" Or something along those lines. A hint of shounen-ai out of curiosity then becomes hardcore yaoi obsession.

[Shadowalker]

I can see it, but then again the protagonist and his rival accidentally kiss in the first chapter... the motive may have been comedy, but I remain cynical. Also, I'm pretty sure that's the only kiss in the entire manga, three hundred chapters later.


As a writer this one bothers me a lot. Not just in how it relates to my fears about manga overall, but on a visceral level. This is why I don't worry as much about the US fandom, though, because they can't have much impact on the author (even if they aren't volumes behind).

Great points. If the accidental kiss is the only kiss in the entire manga, then yeah... it's more than just comedy, sadly.

You also make a good point about the impact of the US fandom... which means that it's the Japanese fandom that must be driving some of the more subtle (and not so subtle) yaoi/yuri content in canon anime.

Mave and minakichan - Thanks for the honest replies and comments.

Mave, I agree with your approach to reading fanfiction, and it's generally what I do myself (there's a couple pretty good fanfiction writers who are internet friends of mine, and I read their works from time-to-time).

[the_wolfs_howl]

So, and I mean this with sincere polite curiousity... if people find these sites so offensive, why do they go to them? If you find the fanfics so offensive, why do you read them? I mean, being a fan of Series A doesn't obligate you to read fanfics of Series A - and if most fanfics of Series A are terribly weird to you in one way or another, why read them?

It seems I'm probably the only one here stupid enough to be like this, but here is my answer. I go to FanFiction.net regularly and look at the new fics of my favorite fandoms (mainly FMA), purely for the diamonds in the rough. There are WAY too many fics about random/weird/nonsensical yaoi, yuri, or whatever pairings (just this morning I saw a RoyXTrisha fic, and I was like ), and even more that are just stupid, poorly written, or have overly recycled premises (self-insert, crossover with fandom x, etc.). But at the same time, I have managed to find a surprising amount of fics ranging from "yeah, pretty good" to "WOAH. ARE YOU SURE YOU'RE NOT A PUBLISHED AUTHOR?!!!!" I've met three good friends on there who all take writing very seriously and are very good writers themselves. So...you probably have to be slightly mad, extremely patient, and a huge fan to go wading through all the festering piles of absolute garbage just to find the good ones. But that's what I am, and that's why I still go to FanFiction.net.

[ShiroiHikari]

I don't go to places like Fanfiction.net because to me, it's not worth sorting through the stinking refuse to find the gems. Same thing with internet forums, Livejournal communities and the like.

Also, I tend to have the complete opposite opinion of most people, even if we like the same things (which is also increasingly rare). So I usually opt not to talk about things I like with anybody these days. Not a fun place to be, frankly. :\

[MasterDias]

Fanfiction.net isn't quite as bad on some of the smaller fandoms that haven't yet been completely overwhelmed by bad fanfics and people who should actually be taking writing classes before they ever attempt to write anything. I do browse through the site here and there, and occasionally I'll find a decent author, but I admit I sometimes wonder why I even bother.

Yaoi fans: That reasoning makes sense unfortunately.

I can see it, but then again the protagonist and his rival accidentally kiss in the first chapter... the motive may have been comedy, but I remain cynical. Also, I'm pretty sure that's the only kiss in the entire manga, three hundred chapters later.

I have heard rumors that Weekly Jump editors and authors sometimes actually alter characters and plotlines just to please shonen-ai fans and such. I'm not sure exactly how much water this holds, but certain things have occasionally made me suspicious before.

[Shadowalker]

It seems I'm probably the only one here stupid enough to be like this, but here is my answer. I go to FanFiction.net regularly and look at the new fics of my favorite fandoms (mainly FMA), purely for the diamonds in the rough. There are WAY too many fics about random/weird/nonsensical yaoi, yuri, or whatever pairings (just this morning I saw a RoyXTrisha fic, and I was like ), and even more that are just stupid, poorly written, or have overly recycled premises (self-insert, crossover with fandom x, etc.). But at the same time, I have managed to find a surprising amount of fics ranging from "yeah, pretty good" to "WOAH. ARE YOU SURE YOU'RE NOT A PUBLISHED AUTHOR?!!!!" I've met three good friends on there who all take writing very seriously and are very good writers themselves. So...you probably have to be slightly mad, extremely patient, and a huge fan to go wading through all the festering piles of absolute garbage just to find the good ones. But that's what I am, and that's why I still go to FanFiction.net.

I see your point, and reasons. Thanks for the reply!

[teigeki_calesa]

Hmm, looks like everything that comes to my mind has already been mentioned. Although, I'm not scared, but rather, irritated to death by such people, particularly the non canon yaoi fangirls and the Japanese audio purists.

And I don't know if this was mentioned somewhere in this thread, but I'll say it anyway: let me add the other kind of elitist, the one that goes "Hah! you're into that *insert title* trash? You call yourself an anime fan?!"; and the anti-Western toon anime fans to the list. In the official forums of a local animation cable channel, I tried to bring up the subject of one Canadian cartoon series shown there that I liked, and they went like "EEEW WESTERN *excrement*BLECH". Yes, I have enough sense to know that the said show isn't the best around, but, it's because of the same sense that I can tell if they hate it because they don't like the story, or simply because it isn't anime, and more often than not, it's the latter.

[mathgrant]

My least favorite kinds of fans are those furry fans who are proud of their yiff addiction and proclaim it everywhere and make it part of their identity. Not only do they kinda creep me out, but it is because of these people that a 27-year-old can make the kinds of sweeping generalizations that make me, as a furry, hurt so deeply inside. I am truly able to sympathize with the people who've mentioned their dislike for the yaoi/yuri/hentai addicts who cause their own fandom to be viewed by some people the same way furry is. x.x

On an anime/manga note, though, I just realized I'm sure as heck glad I don't read Yotsuba&! fanfiction. Judging by the posts in this thread, I'd be scarred for life. I'm already scarred for life at the concept! x.x

[Momo-P]

I have heard rumors that Weekly Jump editors and authors sometimes actually alter characters and plotlines just to please shonen-ai fans and such. I'm not sure exactly how much water this holds, but certain things have occasionally made me suspicious before.

Actually I wouldn't go doubting those rumors anytime soon.

http://comipress.com/article/2006/08/24/624
http://comipress.com/article/2007/01/01/1263

ComiPress translated an article from MoePre. The original article is dated '06, but it doesn't change how true the words spoken in it are. Although Shounen Jump is aimed at little boys, the fujoshi crowd is too "important" to ignore. That's why the Naruto character polls always has Kakashi and Iruka at the top and that disgusting yaoi-Sakura scene popped up.

Blah...Yaoi fangirls tick me off. I don't agree with yuri either, but yaoi fangirls in particular are the most loud, rude, and bratty people I've ever met in my life. They have no shame and often will be real proud of that too. I know I'm just generalizing since there are some yaoi fans who are decent behaving, but the majority I've met? Absolutely terrible.

[minakichan]

I read that article, actually, and I totally took it with a grain of salt. The author (a fujoshi) even admits

The article below is based on assumption, hypothesizing and the author's personal opinions.

There is no actual proof-- not even anecdotal-- to suggest that this actually occurs (either on the editor or the mangaka side), and a fujoshi who really wants textual evidence that suggests that her favorite pairings are REALLY CANON will always make a stretch to justify themselves, based on their "perceptions" on what they've experienced. I've heard people use the same argument to insist the Light and L were written as a sexually active gay couple in Death Note. It's nonsense. I really think it's the case with this woman-- she makes sweeping generalizations that have absolutely no basis whatsoever. The writer herself is just a typical BL-loving blogger (and just because one has an oft-updated website does not make one an authority); she's certainly not an expert in the field, she has no contacts in the industry, and there's no reason to believe that anything she said is true.

I felt ashamed at Comipress for treating this "article" like fact.

[Righteousss]

for halloween the wapanese kids at my school dressed like every character there is in naruto. Half of them were suspended for bringing that prop off the show which I dont know the name of(is it a ninja knife?) It was really funny and really embarassing.

[Momo-P]

[quote="minakichan (post: 1195112)"]There is no actual proof-- not even anecdotal-- to suggest that this actually occurs (either on the editor or the mangaka side), and a fujoshi who really wants textual evidence that suggests that her favorite pairings are REALLY CANON will always make a stretch to justify themselves, based on their "perceptions" on what they've experienced. I've heard people use the same argument to insist the Light and L were written as a sexually active gay couple in Death Note. It's nonsense. I really think it's the case with this woman-- she makes sweeping generalizations that have absolutely no basis whatsoever. The writer herself is just a typical BL-loving blogger (and just because one has an oft-updated website does not make one an authority)]
Minaki, I think you're taking another person's opinion too lightly. Usually it's the other way around, but in this case I strongly disagree.

So what if she's not the head of SJ magazine, who cares? She's been reading SJ for ten years and is apart of the Boys Love crowd, she probably has more insight on the fujoshi situation than most people do. To actually take some of her word for it isn't as insane as you're treating it, I mean, even anti-yaoi fans have noticed the dramatic change in the way SJ handles it's stories. I think the point of that article was to prove that general fans weren't losing their minds when they began to wonder "are they catering more to women nowadays?"

Also you just contradicted yourself there. ComiPress never treated the article like fact, they just translated it. You even posted the section that stated it wasn't their actual opinion, but the opinion of someone from a Japanese site. Though even if it wasn't the opinion of someone from a Japanese site, would it matter? Usually "facts" in the anime community aren't facts at all, usually it's just fans bringing up good points and everyone coming to a made up conclusion. Right now there's lots of evidence to suggest SJ is ignoring it's core auidence (I believe they even released numbers that said women buy their magazine more than men) so actually hearing from one of those women definitely helps.

[Stephen]

I have a hard time dealing with Furrie fans. Seems to me, so be smiled upon form of beastility. >.< I'm sure some will disagree with me. Whatever. I think it's really weird.

[Raiden no Kishi]

Mostly the sort of vastly illogical people who think, for example, that Light Yagami and L would ever have any sort of sexual relationship. What part of both guys, Light's a player, and . . . oh yes, they're mortal enemies do they not get? Sheesh! Maybe I'm just too much of an L fan.

At any rate, it's those sort of people who want to justify their ravings by ignoring logic, decency, and the author's intent that bother be the most.

.rai//

[mathgrant]

I have a hard time dealing with Furrie fans. Seems to me, so be smiled upon form of beastility. >.< I'm sure some will disagree with me. Whatever. I think it's really weird.

x.x Trust me, we're not all into furry for the sex and crap. Some of us simply really like animals. I role-play as a foxger (or two) because it's fun, and not for sexual reasons. I am deeply hurt that so many people, both non-furries and even furries, seem to think the fandom is inseparable from sex. I hope you may come to meet more furries of the non-yiff-obsessed type someday. o.o (I hope I can meet some more, myself. Despite being furry, I have my own brand of furry misanthropy to overcome. x.x )

EDIT: I think I just had an epiphany. I've been wondering why it hurts me so deeply to see other people over-generalize the furry community and think we're all into yiff, when truth be told, I have the same misanthropic view. And I've come to conclude that, just as some people cannot seem to separate furry from the whole sex thing, I think I have trouble separating the disliking of furry from a jerkwad "let's have EPIC LULZ at furries' expense!!!!1111" attitude. Sadly, I have had horrible experiences with furry-haters myself, and I tend to forget that mere intolerance and downright uncivility are two different things. I feel like an utter failure. . . .

[minakichan]

1) Yes, "fact" probably wasn't the right word. "Respectable opinion" might have been more correct. ComiPress generally posts more reputable articles, and I think this was an exception. I do think, however, that there are "Facts" involved in this case-- Weekly Shounen Jump editors either ARE or ARE NOT actively instructing mangaka to include BL-suggestive content. One woman's fujoshi-tinted belief in a conspiracy does not mean it is so-- it is her opinion that the facts happen to be in a certain state, and that itself is contradictory (not to mention baseless). Sure, there is no way to tell for sure, but at the same time, if it was true, there would be real evidence for it; there is not.

2) The line I posted was the author's own admission. Just so you know. Also, there are thousands upon thousands of male and female longtime readers of Jump; not all of them can suddenly be considered experts because of this experience. An industry commentator or expert would have some weight (although even their comments cannot always be taken 100%; see James Watson). A fujoshi blogger writing casually for fujoshi audiences cannot be expected to be completely understanding and correct. By the same vein, there is many a girl who has been reading and watching Death Note for the five long years it's been out, is a part of the BL crowd, and insistently believes that Light and L are canonly gay; that "experience" does not qualify the view.

3) Yes, I do believe SOME Jump titles cater a bit (but certainly not exclusively, as the author claims) to women; no, I do not believe for a second that this is due to some specific magazine-wide editorial pressure to include more BL in their titles. Specific authors like Kishimoto Masashi may include fujoshi-pandering content, but there is no reason to believe that the editors are pushing for it or even that a great number of Jump mangaka feel that pressure either. At the same time, even Kishimoto-sensei does not include significant amouts of BL-suggestive content, so I'd be wary of any claim that he was specifically instructed to do so. I would even say that most currently-running Jump manga does NOT have ANY BL-pandering content, if you actually pay attention to what's serializing aside from Naruto or Prince of Tennis, so the idea that Jump has decided to focus specifically on the ladies is ludicrous. There are also Jump series that have just as much and even more rampant female fanservice and GL-suggestive content, but doesn't that seem contrary to the proposition that Jump is ignoring male audiences in favor of female?