Anime (or manga) on the level of Literature?

[Hana Ryuuzaki]

I have to vote "Noein" and "Fairy Cube".

...so sue me.

[the_wolfs_howl]

Okay, just thought I'd point something out. You've all said that no anime or manga can compare to Shakespeare. Can you even say that any modern bit of prose writing compares to Shakespeare? I don't think people can even write like that anymore. So trying to compare something made within the last decade or two to Shakespeare or Dickens is rather useless, if you ask me.

The following are series that I honestly think can compare to modern literature:

Monster (MANGA - I haven't seen the anime) - Haunting and suspenseful, there's something about the way it's put together that makes me almost afraid to turn the page. And it's not just about the suspense or the scares; it makes you think about serious issues like why someone would commit murder. This substance, and the way it's executed, would bring me to call it "literature-y."

Haibane Renmei (ANIME - haven't read the manga) - Layers. Raising questions about death and the meaning of life. Sustaining a story with almost none of what is usually referred to as "action." What more needs to be said?

Jin-Roh: Wolf Brigade (MOVIE) - A haunting tragedy that mingles with Japanese history (commentary anyone?), uses metaphors, and gives off a sad aura that I doubt I'll forget for years.

Full Metal Alchemist (MANGA - taken away from the anime) - I consider this manga to be, in some ways, almost the Japanese parallel of Harry Potter. (Oh, boy. I can hear you laughing. Well, excuse me, but I actually consider that to be a very good piece of modern literature.) FMA is the only manga I've read (not that I've read very much....) that utilizes the literary element of foreshadowing. There is much depth to the story, I think. So it has some humor (hilarious, if you ask me). So it's an action story with magical elements. Does that stop it from making wordless (yet poignant) statements about brotherly love, life and death, war, the nature of the soul? Hiromu Arakawa is a great storyteller, I think, and there are some frames that are so wordlessly stunning it just blows my mind away:

[clipped]

[Godly Paladin]

FMA is the only manga I've read (not that I've read very much....) that utilizes the literary element of foreshadowing.

I guess that means that they actually WEREN'T making it up as they went along, which is/was the case with 90% of anime and manga. :p

[uc pseudonym]

The only one? Foreshadowing is a pretty common element of modern shonen (anything where it isn't being made up by the chapter). Even a mainstream series like Bleach has some pretty heavy foreshadowing, from trivial character references to thematic hints that didn't play out for 20+ volumes.

Ohba Tsugumi specificaly said that s/he did not intend Death Note to be this hugely awesomefully deep philosophical work (although I think s/he admitted it was supposed to social commentary on modern Japan), which is why although I LIKE to say it's literature-y (should be obvious, considering, you know, I RUN A SITE THAT TRIES TO SPREAD PROPAGANDA THAT IT IS), I'll admit that it's really not 100%]
I have similar feelings. In the end, however, I guess I come down on the side of giving it literary value because it tries to say something worthwhile about a human value like justice.

Okay, just thought I'd point something out. You've all said that no anime or manga can compare to Shakespeare. Can you even say that any modern bit of prose writing compares to Shakespeare? I don't think people can even write like that anymore. So trying to compare something made within the last decade or two to Shakespeare or Dickens is rather useless, if you ask me.

Good point, though I have to add that some of here are rather cynical when it comes to Shakespeare or Dickens.

Lastly, on FMA: I think I'd grant the manga some credit, though judgment is pending until the end of the series. But it is a story told very well... and frankly, I think that's all a lot of classic authors have going for them.

[minakichan]

Yeah, um, I'm inclined to think that foreshadowing and metaphor-- you know, those stock vocab words that your English teacher made you memorize-- are really in almost every anime or manga that was created half-intelligently, period.

I think there are tons of anime and manga that are like modern (or you know, close to modern) lit. How many hoards and hoards and hoards of people have compared Death Note to Dostoyevsky's Crime and Punishment? (Personally, I'm more of a modern lit fan, although some old stuff like DUMAS! and HUGO! old dead French guys! does it for me.)

I brought up Shakespeare and Dickens because when they were writing, everyone thought their crap was crap, but it ended up being not-so-crap, at least according to crap lit experts and critics today. Similarly, most people think anime and manga is crap, and lots of it truly is crap, but some of the crap might me less craptastic than other crap, and eventually, some future literary expert is going to look at the not-so-crap and decide that it really is not-so-crap and everything will be hunky-dory.

[MasterDias]

Yeah, I'd hope most authors aren't simply making stuff up as they go along. I agree with UC and minakichan.

The comparison between Harry Potter and FMA is valid. They are both popular YA titles with well-told stories and good writing. I'm still hesitant to consider it under this kind of list however.

To be honest, I think it might be decades too early to seriously say what titles would consitute this. Lots of what we consider "literature" wasn't considered so until centuries later.

[jon_jinn]

i'm surprised Berserk hasn't popped up in this thread yet.

anyways, i agree with Monster, 20th CB, and The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya. might i also add Paranoia Agent as well...

[Godly Paladin]

I would never consider Berserk to be literary. Heck, I think it's a D-grade piece of work even for anime. That's just me, though.

[Cognitive Gear]

I dunno... have you READ some of the Japanese indie and small publishers comics? In other words, works that you'd never find on the shelves in the US, but there's quite a few in scanlation. I've seen some that are pretty darn literate, though more in a modern and postmodern lit sense.

I've read a few, but nothing that gave me the impression of being literature. Again, many were well written and had worthwhile stories to tell, but they didn't quite make the impact that literature is supposed to.

Now, if you know of some good ones that you can recommend to me, please do so via PM. I am always looking to expand my literal literary horizons.

[uc pseudonym]

To be honest, I think it might be decades too early to seriously say what titles would consitute this. Lots of what we consider "literature" wasn't considered so until centuries later.

Agreed. All we can do now is discuss which series we feel have lasting merit.

I would never consider Berserk to be literary. Heck, I think it's a D-grade piece of work even for anime. That's just me, though.

I would assume anyone suggesting Berserk is talking about the manga, not the anime. The latter is barely worth mentioning, but I think the former is respectable as a serious work. Though the story is incomplete, it seems as though it will be epic in the true literary sense of the word. There is graphic content, but that has never disqualified literature. As far as dealing with serious themes, I think the Idea of Evil qualifies.

But the anime? It's like the movie adaptation that robs the story of everything that made it worthwhile.

[AsianBlossom]

Hm...I suppose in terms of anime, instead of comparing them to books, we could possibly compare them to such works as New Line Cinema's "Lord of the Rings" trilogy, based on Tolkein's books. Or "Titanic" for that matter (only saw an edited version on a plane when she was nine...can't remember too much except that it was sad...come to think of it, why were they playing a movie about a ship sinking when we were in a plane flying over the Atlantic? O_o)

Anyways, in that regard, do you think that "Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind" (anime) could be considered as having the same sort of value as a great work of literature or cinema?

[Fish and Chips]

This thread has reignited my plans to eventually read Berserk.

[Nate]

Yeah, I think I'm gonna give Berserk a try now after seeing how well uc speaks of it. XD

Also I'm with others here. There's lots of stories I enjoy, but I'm not sure if they'd stand the test of time to be considered classic literature. Heck, I don't even understand who says what classic literature is. A Tale of Two Cities? That book was TERRIBLE!

[jon_jinn]

I would never consider Berserk to be literary. Heck, I think it's a D-grade piece of work even for anime. That's just me, though.

as UC said, i was referring the the Berserk manga.

and while i am talking about manga, i might as well add Akira to my list.

[minakichan]

Oh man. Berserk is one title I'm not touching with a 15-foot pole.

Heck, I don't even understand who says what classic literature is. A Tale of Two Cities? That book was TERRIBLE!

>D If normal people got to make that decision, English professors would all be out of jobs. Not an undesirable situation...

[Shadowalker]

The first question is, what is literature?

According to Merriam Webster:



For the purposes of this question, we will focus on definition 3A1.

Honestly, I think there are few Japanese comics that fall into this category. Most of them that do fall under the "excellence of form" category. Few manage to truly express ideas of permanence or universal interest.

Honestly, I don't think that Japan has quite caught up with the "West" when it comes to literate comics. Certainly they exist, but I have found far less of them in the Japanese comics then I have with western comics. It should be noted that I have been reading Japanese comics for a much longer period of time than the western ones.

Out of curiousity, which western comics would you consider on par with good literature, and/or managing to truly express ideas of permanence or universal interest?

I was a big western comic book fan (i.e. Spiderman, Batman, Superman, numerous DC, Marvel, and Image titles) during the late 80s to mid-90s (when I started to like anime more than western comic books), but I rarely found them that deep or dealing with ideas of permanence or universal interest.

[Nate]

Out of curiousity, which western comics would you consider on par with good literature, and/or managing to truly express ideas of permanence or universal interest?

Sadly I couldn't find the one with the words "ONE OF TIME MAGAZINE'S 100 BEST NOVELS" across the top.

I also kind of wanted to post pictures of Kingdom Come, The Killing Joke, and The Long Halloween on here, but I figured I'd go with number one.

[Sheenar]

I brought up Shakespeare and Dickens because when they were writing, everyone thought their crap was crap, but it ended up being not-so-crap, at least according to crap lit experts and critics today. Similarly, most people think anime and manga is crap, and lots of it truly is crap, but some of the crap might me less craptastic than other crap, and eventually, some future literary expert is going to look at the not-so-crap and decide that it really is not-so-crap and everything will be hunky-dory.

I like Charles Dickens...

Anyway, I agree that it is decades too early to decide which manga/anime would be considered literature. Off the top of my head is (a lit. example) Zora Neal Hurston's Their Eyes Were Watching God. It didn't become popular until decades after she died--in fact, it almost died out for a while. Then, you have a book like The Road by Cormac McCarthy which wound up on Oprah's book list (that surprised me --it's a good book, but it's pretty depressing) --It's vision of a post-apocalyptic world and the relationship between the father and son remind me a little of the relationship between the brother and sister in Grave of the Fireflies and the hardships they faced in war-torn Japan.
I personally think the FMA manga has a lot of themes that make it a good potential choice to be on the level of literature. Playing in God's domain, sin, trying to find restoration, brotherly love, redemtion (in a sense --not the Christian one, exactly), the existence of God (Ed struggles with this --he's lost everything dear to him), etc.

[Cognitive Gear]

*Image Cut*

Sadly I couldn't find the one with the words "ONE OF TIME MAGAZINE'S 100 BEST NOVELS" across the top.

I also kind of wanted to post pictures of Kingdom Come, The Killing Joke, and The Long Halloween on here, but I figured I'd go with number one.

Thank you. I would also add The Sandman, The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Maus, and the list goes on from there. There are not many, but they do exist.

[minakichan]

Mm, Maus won a Pulitzer. That's pretty dang hardcore.

[the_wolfs_howl]

The only one? Foreshadowing is a pretty common element of modern shonen (anything where it isn't being made up by the chapter). Even a mainstream series like Bleach has some pretty heavy foreshadowing, from trivial character references to thematic hints that didn't play out for 20+ volumes.

Hey, I said I don't read much manga, so what do I know? FMA was the only one I've read where the foreshadowing really struck out at me. And I'm not including anime in this, because there is lots of foreshadowing in the animes I've seen.

Heck, I don't even understand who says what classic literature is. A Tale of Two Cities? That book was TERRIBLE!

*ahem* I'll refrain from saying anything beyond I strongly disagree with that comment, because otherwise I'd work myself into a lather and be the laughingstock of this thread.

[Shadowalker]

Sadly I couldn't find the one with the words "ONE OF TIME MAGAZINE'S 100 BEST NOVELS" across the top.

I also kind of wanted to post pictures of Kingdom Come, The Killing Joke, and The Long Halloween on here, but I figured I'd go with number one.

I've never read Watchmen myself, but I do know that it's critically acclaimed.

I thoroughly enjoyed both Kingdom Come, and the Killing Joke... however, I'm not sure if there's much permanence or universality to the ideas or themes explored within them.

Kingdom Come was basically DC's response to Image's more hardcore, "it's cool to kill the villains" style. It delved very nicely into the characters of Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, but I don't recall any particular universal theme that it dealt with, other than "thou shalt not kill" (a theme - and, of course, a Biblical imperative - explored regularly in anime, manga and western comics). While I did enjoy Kingdom Come, I often felt like the Preist and the Spectre's presence were superfluous to the plot. There was no strong Christian/Catholic message coming from the Preist, imo, other than a rejection of judgementalism perhaps.

The Killing Joke, similiarly, delved very nicely into the characters of the Joker, and Batman, but I don't know if there's much permanence or universality of the themes explored within it either.

Kingdom Come, and Killing Joke, were outstanding works, but honestly... I would feel comfortable putting Full Metal Alchemist and Death Note up against them.

I'm not familiar with Long Halloween - I might check it out.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[uc pseudonym]

Since people are showing interest, let me backpedal a bit in regard to Berserk. Though I think it is probably the best mainstream seinen (is that an oxymoron?) title currently running, I wouldn't endorse it wholeheartedly. Though there are strong literary elements and even philosophy, you have to read 30+ volumes to get at them. Among those volumes are some weak arcs and some violence that is simply mindless.

Oh man. Berserk is one title I'm not touching with a 15-foot pole.

As in not read with a 15-foot pole, or you're not going to give us your opinion?

Mm, Maus won a Pulitzer. That's pretty dang hardcore.

Another excellent work of graphic literature. This is one that shows its depth from nearly the start, and the simple art style shows itself effective as it progresses. There are too many Holocaust stories, but Maus managed to set itself apart for me. Most framed stories have the frame as a simple device or an excuse for narration, but here it is what gives the work so much depth.

I've never read Watchmen myself, but I do know that it's critically acclaimed.

For however little it is worth, Watchmen is strongly endorsed by me. Well written in story and dialogue, morally complex, fascinating take on heroism as pathology, action that exists only when necessary but is solidly done... I couldn't ask for much more.

[Shadowalker]

Thank you. I would also add The Sandman, The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Maus, and the list goes on from there. There are not many, but they do exist.

The Sandman? Hhhmmm... I've read some of it. I have to be frank - it frequently struck me as pretentious goth stuff. I'm not saying that it wasn't highly intellectual, or philosophical, but it just felt like it was trying too hard to me at times. Kind of like the various Adam Warlock comics that Marvel put out.

What I liked about Death Note, Full Metal Alchemist, and the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya (though, in fairness, the latter has no manga that I'm aware of - only novels and anime), was how the more philosophical content came across as natural and sincere, flowed well within the plot, and while it could be deep, it never felt like it was trying to lay it on really thick.

I'm not familiar with the other two, though, I must admit. Can you please give me a brief breakdown of what's Maus is about, if you don't mind?

Since people are showing interest, let me backpedal a bit in regard to Berserk. Though I think it is probably the best mainstream seinen (is that an oxymoron?) title currently running, I wouldn't endorse it wholeheartedly. Though there are strong literary elements and even philosophy, you have to read 30+ volumes to get at them. Among those volumes are some weak arcs and some violence that is simply mindless.


As in not read with a 15-foot pole, or you're not going to give us your opinion?


Another excellent work of graphic literature. This is one that shows its depth from nearly the start, and the simple art style shows itself effective as it progresses. There are too many Holocaust stories, but Maus managed to set itself apart for me. Most framed stories have the frame as a simple device or an excuse for narration, but here it is what gives the work so much depth.


For however little it is worth, Watchmen is strongly endorsed by me. Well written in story and dialogue, morally complex, fascinating take on heroism as pathology, action that exists only when necessary but is solidly done... I couldn't ask for much more.

So Maus is about the Holocaust? Interesting - I might see if I can pick it up somewhere then.

I have to admit that I have a bit of a reluctance to read Watchmen. I've heard it stated that the series basically endores the concept of "the ends justify the means" through an action that one of the characters took near or at the end of it. Would you say that this is a fair criticism of Watchmen, or not?

[Shadowalker]

Since people are showing interest, let me backpedal a bit in regard to Berserk. Though I think it is probably the best mainstream seinen (is that an oxymoron?) title currently running, I wouldn't endorse it wholeheartedly. Though there are strong literary elements and even philosophy, you have to read 30+ volumes to get at them. Among those volumes are some weak arcs and some violence that is simply mindless.


As in not read with a 15-foot pole, or you're not going to give us your opinion?


Another excellent work of graphic literature. This is one that shows its depth from nearly the start, and the simple art style shows itself effective as it progresses. There are too many Holocaust stories, but Maus managed to set itself apart for me. Most framed stories have the frame as a simple device or an excuse for narration, but here it is what gives the work so much depth.


For however little it is worth, Watchmen is strongly endorsed by me. Well written in story and dialogue, morally complex, fascinating take on heroism as pathology, action that exists only when necessary but is solidly done... I couldn't ask for much more.

So Maus is about the Holocaust? Interesting - I might see if I can pick it up somewhere then.

I have to admit that I have a bit of a reluctance to read Watchmen. I've heard it stated that the series basically endores the concept of "the ends justify the means" through an action that one of the characters (Ozymandais, IIRC) took near or at the end of it. Would you say that this is a fair criticism of Watchmen, or not?

[uc pseudonym]

The Sandman? Hhhmmm... I've read some of it. I have to be frank - it frequently struck me as pretentious goth stuff. I'm not saying that it wasn't highly intellectual, or philosophical, but it just felt like it was trying too hard to me at times. Kind of like the various Adam Warlock comics that Marvel put out

Though I think The Sandman is a worthy title overall, it isn't my favorite because I feel the series is uneven. Uneven in writing, very much so in art, and in the aspect you mention. If you have time, I would suggest trying the series a bit further, as I think some parts of it would feel much more natural to you.

So Maus is about the Holocaust? Interesting - I might see if I can pick it up somewhere then.

It is, yet it's more than that. The author is talking to his father, a survivor, and perhaps a quarter of the story is their conversations instead of the events in the past. But what is happening in the present adds layers of depth to the meaning of the novel and how it addresses human tragedy.

I have to admit that I have a bit of a reluctance to read Watchmen. I've heard it stated that the series basically endores the concept of "the ends justify the means" through an action that one of the characters took near or at the end of it. Would you say that this is a fair criticism of Watchmen, or not?

I don't believe so. As I said, Watchmen is morally complex. My suspicion is that those who present that objection are operating under the assumption that the person who wins must be the good guy. As I interpret the story, there aren't white hats and black hats, but I don't think the author means to support the darker shade of hat that prevails in the end. Instead, the work calls the reader to more deeply consider philosophies such as the ends justifying the means. Because while what is done is reprehensible, it is the logical progression from many less drastic philosophies that many do hold in real life.

Also, I edited the name of the individual from your post. Major spoiler.

[Cognitive Gear]

The Sandman? Hhhmmm... I've read some of it. I have to be frank - it frequently struck me as pretentious goth stuff. I'm not saying that it wasn't highly intellectual, or philosophical, but it just felt like it was trying too hard to me at times. Kind of like the various Adam Warlock comics that Marvel put out.

Actually, The Sandman series predates the gothic subculture movements, and was one of the early influences on the subculture itself. I don't believe that literature is a matter of taste, as A Tale of Two Cities proves quite soundly.

If you are looking for something that is a "cut above" I would highly recommend issue #19 A Midsummer Night's Dream. The Sandman is not for everyone, but it is indeed literature.

[minakichan]

Hey, I said I don't read much manga, so what do I know? FMA was the only one I've read where the foreshadowing really struck out at me. And I'm not including anime in this, because there is lots of foreshadowing in the animes I've seen.

No, I sort of mean that the majority of semi-decently-written narrative storytelling in any medium really has to rely on foreshadowing. It's kind of ridiculous to say that it only "sticks out" in one or two series, when it really should be in almost anything one could read. There is nothing noteworthy about it-- to point it out would be akin to saying, "Look, this novel has similes in it!"

As in not read with a 15-foot pole, or you're not going to give us your opinion?

I can't read it-- I REALLY cannot stand gore and guts in any capacity at all. It really sucks, because there's a lot of excellently remarkable shtuffs out there that just happens to be ridiculously and excessively bloody.

[Fish and Chips]

[quote="Radical Dreamer (post: 1190474)"]I'll also mostly second Kino's Journey]
I can vouch for Kino, though depending on the episode/chapter, some bits are better written than others.

[Nate]

I thoroughly enjoyed both Kingdom Come, and the Killing Joke... however, I'm not sure if there's much permanence or universality to the ideas or themes explored within them.

I wasn't aware that was a requirement for classic literature. The Grapes of Wrath is about the Dust Bowl/Great Depression, which is neither permanent nor universal, and it is considered classic. I'm just sayin'. :p

However I would say that the Killing Joke does have universality to its theme, which is "The most upstanding citizen is capable of going mad after having just one bad day." That has a lot to do with the inherent goodness or evilness of man, and a bit to do with the root cause of mental illnesses. :p

Also the thread is about manga/comics on the level of literature, not necessarily manga/comics we believe will become great or classic literature. I'd actually be surprised if any of the things we say would ever gain such notoriety.

For the record I would say that I would classify Kingdom Come on the level of classic literature. The Killing Joke, while excellently written, might not necessarily hold the same prestige, but I think it's solid in its own right.