Anime (or manga) on the level of Literature?

[minakichan]

So, technically "literature" doesn't necessarily mean much aside from writings or books, but usually, when we think of the term, we think of writing that is superior or has lasting artistic value (you know, Dickens, Shakespeare... Dostoyevsky... Kafka... whatever you read in English class >D). This separates it from YA fiction and smutty romance novels. What anime and manga can you think of that have literary value-- enough that even the most typical literature snob would acknowledge? (Anime based on novels only counts if it still retains that artistic whateverness.)

Off the top of my head, I can say Death Note, Monster (although 20th Century Boys is slightly debatable, in my opinion), and even Kino's Journey (which has been touted as a dark version of Le Petit Prince). All of these could definitely be discussed in length for their actual narrative and thematic content (rather than just as "kinda interesting anime lol") in a high-level literature-ish class. Also, some (but not all) Miyazaki films, of course-- Spirited Away actually has a Sparknote.

I also want to anti-vote Hagaren; yes, it has great characters and themes and it can get All Deep and Stuff (TM), but you know, while "classic literature" can be humorous, it usually doesn't rely on repeated height jokes. (Although Shakespeare works can be just as juvenile, I think he doesn't count >_>)

[ShiroiHikari]

Well...there's Gankutsuou, which is based on The Count of Monte Cristo. But I'm not sure if that's exactly what you're talking about.

[mitsuki lover]

Inuyasha is based on Japanese mythology.Lupin III is actually based on
a series of French detective novels about a thief named Arsene Lupin,
Lupin is actually Arsene Lupin III.

I agree though that the title of the thread is a bit ambiguous,do you mean anime on the level of literature or anime BASED on literature,if the former than we're both off.

[KhakiBlueSocks]

[font="Trebuchet MS"][SIZE="4"][color="RoyalBlue"]Well, "Nadia: Secret of Blue Water" is based off "20,000 Leagues Under The Sea" by Jules Verne. However, the anime itself is really well done, and the story is something I can see people reading over and over again in book form.[/color][/SIZE][/font]

[Nate]

I agree though that the title of the thread is a bit ambiguous,do you mean anime on the level of literature or anime BASED on literature,if the former than we're both off.

Uh...you know, there's this handy thing you can do in the forums. It's called "reading what other people post." Sometimes, if you read what people post, you can understand what they're asking! She clearly says, if you, y'know, READ, that...

What anime and manga can you think of that have literary value

See? The opening post removes all ambiguity from the title! Dang, reading posts sure is great! You should try it!

And Inuyasha has NO literary value. I'm sure people would LOVE to read a book of "Kagome!" "Inuyasha!" "Kagome!" "Inuyasha!" "Kagome!" "Inuyasha!"

Yeah, that's Shakespearian right there. e.e

[Roy Mustang]

Since I read this in the news a few months ago, but alot of people feel that Death Note is on the level of literature, when the manga was nominated for the Evergreen Young Adult Book Award by librarians.


[color="Red"][font="Book Antiqua"]Col. Roy Mustang[/font] [/color]

[Htom Sirveaux]

Whoa, Nate. Easy, tiger. People make mistakes. It's part of what makes us human. No mistakes=no sin=no need for Christianity as we know it=no CAA=no mitsuki lover to not read the first post=no opportunity for Nate to criticize him for making a mistake. Just let people be imperfect in peace, dig?

[minakichan]

I also wrote "(Anime based on novels only counts if it still retains that artistic whateverness.)" but whatever. Maybe that sentence was too "whatever"-y to actually be comprehensible.

I'm actually debating with myself whether Gankutsuou is really that great/ has lasting artistic value/ whatever. Le Comte de Monte Cristo is my absolute favorite novel ever (hmm, maybe tied with Crime and Punishment), but I didn't enjoy Gankutsuou as much, partially because I was being purist and partially because it genuinely wasn't that wonderful at all. I felt that the characters and lots of the themes were oversimplified, the revenges didn't work at all, the decision to set it in space did absolutely nothing to advance the story or ambience, and the major plot changes that were applied were sort of... cliche? unimaginative? I'm OK with deviations from the original only if they're BETTER, and it certainly wasn't the case here. I really wanted to believe Gankutsuou was awesome, but I was disappointed. So it's PROBABLY not on MY list of literature-ish anime, although others might disagree.

[Radical Dreamer]

The only one I can think of off the top of my head is possibly Haibane Renmei. I will, however, fully second Urasawa's Monster and 20th Century Boys. If V for Vendetta can be considered literature, then so can these, absolutely. XD I'll also mostly second Kino's Journey; I say "mostly" because I've only read most of the first light novel and haven't seen the anime. XD

[Fish and Chips]

[quote="minakichan (post: 1190424)"]I also want to anti-vote Hagaren]
And Javert never overindulged in pastries.

Your point?

[Shadowalker]

I agree with Death Note.

I'm on the fence with regards to the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, but I think that it's at least worth throwing out there for this topic.

The typical plotlines of individual (or two-part) episodes, while enjoyable to watch unfold, aren't necessarily the stuff of masterpiece theater. However, the broader overarching philosophical issues that the anime sometimes delves into (typically through Kyon's inner monologues, and/or his discussions with Koizumi, in my opinion) strikes me as being at a level that, say, your average English/Bachelor of Arts Major could appreciate, and find good fodder for several good, intelligent, classroom discussions. It benefits from being a little less depressing, in my personal opinion, than a lot of the books you can end up studying in College/University English classes.

[minakichan]

And Javert never overindulged in pastries.

Your point?

*blink* Sorry, what?

I think Haruhi is definitely something that can be discussed professionally/intelligently/whateverly, but more as a representative of otaku and fandom culture than concerning its literary content. (I know MIT CMS has discussed it in passing, but I don't think anyone on this side of the pond has investigated it thoroughly.) I think Kyon and Koizumi's discussions are pretty cool, quite interesting, sort of in a Matrix-y way.

[EricTheFred]

Oh,boy. There's LOTS of stuff, people. The problem is, you're tunnel-visioning down on only the last couple years.

The best examples are always in movies, probably because having to spread a story out over an entire season causes one to put in 'filler' material that waters it down.

My first vote in the movie category goes to "Grave of the Fireflies", easily the most emotionally draining of Miyazaki's work. I also give votes to Miyazaki for two other great pieces, "Whisper of the Heart" and "Spirited Away." These are all 'literary' quality works.

Other movie makers have achieved similar highs, though. "Metropolis", "Beautiful Dreamer", "Roujin-Z", and the original "Ghost in the Shell", for example. In more recent years, "Paprika" and "The Place Promised in our Early Days" have achieved similar results.

I could list quite a few more, but I want to move on to the TV category, since that's what the previous posts all seem to have focussed on.

Only recently have TV series truly begun achieving higher quality. My first vote, "Now and Then, Here and There", is an emotional roller-coaster ride (and more than one acquaintance has found the middle part so depressing they couldn't finish it, which is unfortunate, because they miss the most important parts)

The recently aired "Noein" is brilliance, although the English version is badly marred with lousy voice acting (or actually, bad casting. The VAs themselves are top of their trade, but most of them were completely mis-matched to their roles.) The Japanese version is where you find the brilliance.

Also, I vote for:
"Noir"
"Witch Hunter Robin"
"Ergo Proxy"
"Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex"

I think that most of the people seeing greatness in "Death Note" (which I also agree with, by the way) would appreciate all of these (but not necessarily N&T,H&T, which is a different kind of story.)

An ongoing series, "Ghost Hound", looks to me to be on the road to achieving the same level of sophistication. A recent series, "Dennou Coil", deserves the same, except for certain specific, blatant filler episodes that I wish they could have just omitted, which badly marred the overall story.

In the OAV category, I will vote for "Tokyo Babylon" and "Yohohama Kaidashi Kikou" (only available in Japanese, sorry.) I give an honerable mention to "Voices of a Distant Star", which is good, but I wish he had gone ahead and filled in the rest of the story in between the bits we did get to see. As a feature-length movie beginning and ending in the same places, but with a lot more middle, it would have been so much better.

[minakichan]

Yeah, I actually haven't seen many of the classic movies and such. For example, I know Tezuka's Hi no Tori is supposed to be a masterpiece, buuut still haven't seen it. I'm kind of asking for suggestions.

Noir, really? I've only seen the first two eps, but it struck me as a simple girls-with-guns-and-sekrit-conspiracies thing, so I'm a little curious (again, stressing the fact that I haven't actually seen it....)

[Radical Dreamer]

Other movie makers have achieved similar highs, though. "Metropolis", "Beautiful Dreamer", "Roujin-Z", and the original "Ghost in the Shell", for example. In more recent years, "Paprika" and "The Place Promised in our Early Days" have achieved similar results.

Oh, I forgot about Satoshi Kon stuff. I agree with Paprika and would suggest Millennium Actress, as well. The rest, I haven't seen, but I wouldn't hesitate to guess that shows like Paranoia Agent would rank pretty highly, too.

[uc pseudonym]

Sadly, I'm generally inclined to believe manga/anime tends to fall into the transitory literature category of romance novels. However, the titles that first occurred to me as exceptions (Monster, Death Note) have been mentioned, if we set aside movies, so I'll contribute something different, hopefully.

What exactly connotes Literary Value? Reading the opening post immediately made me think of Charles Dickens, who wrote serial fiction that was condemned as mindless vernacular. Though I agree with some of his critics who felt his plots were contrived and occasionally episodic (speaking in broad terms), looking back it is easy to tell that his work was a massive leap ahead for fiction in general. Similar things can be said about Shakespeare.

So I think it is possible that certain series should be noted for developing a medium, even if they may not be excellent in quality. Or, more negatively, some of the series that are the most lasting may be those that appeal to mass popularity, not those that are worthwhile. If there is such a thing as memetic selection, it is not pleasant.

I'm sure people would LOVE to read a book of "Kagome!" "Inuyasha!" "Kagome!" "Inuyasha!" "Kagome!" "Inuyasha!"

"Romeo!" "Juliet!" "Romeo!" "Juliet!" "Romeo!" "Juliet!"

I'm not making any kind of point whatsoever, I just thought it should be done.

[Fish and Chips]

*blink* Sorry, what?

I'm saying don't discount FullMetal Alchemist but welcome Death Note and Haruhi Suzumiya with open arms. Not if comic relief is the deciding factor.

[Shadowalker]

Speaking personally, literary value arises from the depth, complexity, and, in some cases, universality or paradoxically novelty (i.e. a pioneering work), of the ideas and themes and characterizations seen in a piece of work. Then those ideas and themes and characterizations should be woven together into a reasonably well-written and well-timed plot.

Even beyond that, though, there does seem to me to be a certain intangible factor that seperates a great literary work (or an animated work on par with one) from something less talked about by academics/scholars.

I'm confidant that Haruhi has the first paragraph here covered nicely, but I don't know if it's missing that intangible quality or not.

Somehow, I just know that Death Note has that intangible quality, though.

[Shadowalker]

I'm saying don't discount FullMetal Alchemist but welcome Death Note and Haruhi Suzumiya with open arms. Not if comic relief is the deciding factor.

Full Metal Alchemist, taken as a whole, deserves to be mentioned on this thread, yeah.

[minakichan]

What exactly connotes Literary Value? Reading the opening post immediately made me think of Charles Dickens, who wrote serial fiction that was condemned as mindless vernacular. Though I agree with some of his critics who felt his plots were contrived and occasionally episodic (speaking in broad terms), looking back it is easy to tell that his work was a massive leap ahead for fiction in general. Similar things can be said about Shakespeare.

Yeah, ditto on Shakespeare. I think high school Literature is enough to convince anyone that English professors, critics, and experts are all out of their minds o_O. Raunchy jokes = true mastery! Concerning Dickens, I think it's fascinating that serialized manga follows really similar format to serialized prose fiction of old (since novels are less often serialized today), and while it's true that 90% of everything is crap, I think the format can really allow for some gems that will eventually stand the test of time to crop up.

I'm saying don't discount FullMetal Alchemist but welcome Death Note and Haruhi Suzumiya with open arms. Not if comic relief is the deciding factor.

First off, definitely not necessarily welcoming Haruhi-- I think it has more merits as a what its fandom has brought about than its actual content. And it's not a comic relief factor-- tons of great crap was very funny. It's just, I sort of feel like a lot of Hagaren-- humor and otherwise-- isn't really as groundbreaking as many of its fans would suggest. Hm, how should I put it... so, I've heard it said that Shakespeare isn't really lauded today for being amazing and awesome and deep and whatever (because he's not necessarily), but because he was pretty revolutionary for his time. His sort of raunchy jokes and melodramatic comedy/tragedy today are the norm; if any fellow wrote a purely Shakespearian play or novel today, it would be passed off as uncreative bad pulp fiction. I kind of get the same feeling from Hagaren. Of course, I'm not a literary expert, so I'm not allowed to draw the ambiguous and baseless line in the sand.

EDIT:: at any rate, I think I'm going to stress that I know people will disagree with me on Hagaren. It's not "I'm right and you're wrong," I will admit that. The whole topic is pretty subjective, at any rate.

[EricTheFred]

Noir, really? I've only seen the first two eps, but it struck me as a simple girls-with-guns-and-sekrit-conspiracies thing, so I'm a little curious (again, stressing the fact that I haven't actually seen it....)

It sneaks up on you. Basically, yes, it's a girls-with-guns anime, but that's just the surface. Believe me, there's a wide difference between "Noir" and say, "Madlax", "Grenadier", or "Gunslinger Girls."

In the same way, you could minimize "Death Note", and toss it into essentially the same category as "Bleach", "Shana", etc. (Both of which are good Anime, but really just entertainment. Death Note just seems to rise above them somehow.)

[Debitt]

Sadly, I'm generally inclined to believe manga/anime tends to fall into the transitory literature category of romance novels.

I'm inclined to agree, mostly, with this.

However, I think a few exceptions can be made. Outside of the skill of writing, the depth and complexity, and the ground-breaking nature of the work (by this I mean, how did the work change the genre, ex: Shakespeare or Dickens), I think I'd add 'historical value' to the list of things that could potentially qualify a work as a piece of literature. And no, by this I don't mean "first anime to ___", I mean how does the work reflect Japanese society's attitudes towards issues in the country's history? How does it deal with particular events and make a commentary on them? I feel like titles that contain elements of history, like Grave of the Fireflies, Barefoot Gen (which I haven't seen, but have read about briefly), and Akira would probably fall into the category of literary.

Right now, those three are probably the only titles I can mention without going "...weelllll...", though I'll admit my reservations about other titles (namely Death Note and Monster) are based more on a gut reaction than anything else.

[EricTheFred]

I think it's a matter of depth and complexity. The people who dissed Shakespeare or Dickens in their day were failing to note the many layers of meaning these guys were folding into their work. I would hold up as a comparison the Mary Shelley "Frankenstein" versus the typical Hollywood version of the same name. The book is literature, beyond a doubt. The movies... not so much.

[Shadowalker]

The raunchy, largely comedic relief portions of Shakespeare's work isn't what makes him considerred an outstanding writer - not from what I've been personally taught by various English teachers and professors.

The key to Shakespeare is how he took the Greek tragedy model and artfully and skillfully applied it to some of the concerns, ideas, and philosophies of his day, as well as historical situations.

A lot of Shakespeare's writings don't resonate with that many people today because our world is vastly different than his in many ways. A lot of Shakespeare's writings was critical of royals (royals with actual, serious, life-and-death power over people), and various socioeconomic classes and conflicts and issues of his time - things culturally alien to us today.

[Godly Paladin]

I definitely back ErictheFred up on Ghost In the Shell, or at least the movies. The original and Innocence are brilliant and Solid State Society was a definite surprise as well. Haven't seen Laughing Man yet, but if you want literary-quality science fiction with a deep philosophical bend...yeah. Ghost in the Shell. Not so much the series, since it's too episodic to really get in gear and start a flow of emotional resonance, drama, etc.

And of course, only for the 17+ crowd, I'd imagine.

[Cognitive Gear]

The first question is, what is literature?

According to Merriam Webster:

1archaic : literary culture
2: the production of literary work especially as an occupation
3 a (1): writings in prose or verse; especially : writings having excellence of form or expression and expressing ideas of permanent or universal interest (2): an example of such writings <what came out, though rarely literature, was always a roaring good story — People> b: the body of written works produced in a particular language, country, or age c: the body of writings on a particular subject <scientific literature> d: printed matter (as leaflets or circulars) <campaign literature>
4: the aggregate of a usually specified type of musical compositions

For the purposes of this question, we will focus on definition 3A1.

Honestly, I think there are few Japanese comics that fall into this category. Most of them that do fall under the "excellence of form" category. Few manage to truly express ideas of permanence or universal interest.

Honestly, I don't think that Japan has quite caught up with the "West" when it comes to literate comics. Certainly they exist, but I have found far less of them in the Japanese comics then I have with western comics. It should be noted that I have been reading Japanese comics for a much longer period of time than the western ones.

[Technomancer]

I've only very rarely read manga, so am not about to say very much on that account, save that what I have read has been less than spectacular. On occasion its diverting, but I wouldn't say much for the field beyond that (and I include Death Note in this). As far as anime goes, I would rather compare it to other cinematic efforts instead of works in a whole different medium. Under those circumstances, there are pieces that I do consider worthy of consideration as serious cinema:

Wings of Honneamise
Grave of the Fireflies
Spirited Away
Ghost in the Shell (the 1st movie and Solid State Society, Innocence was simply boring and pretentious).
Millenium Actress

Full Metal Alchemist started out pretty well too, although I was not especially impressed with the either the series ending or the movie.

[MasterDias]

While Full Metal Alchemist is good series, I wouldn't classify it in the same category as Shakespeare. Death Note and Monster are better to consider, but I'm still somewhat iffy.

I find it easier to argue certain movies like some of Miyazaki's titles or (while I'm not very fond of it) Grave of the Fireflies.

[Fish and Chips]

I kind of get the same feeling from Hagaren. Of course, I'm not a literary expert, so I'm not allowed to draw the ambiguous and baseless line in the sand.

EDIT:: at any rate, I think I'm going to stress that I know people will disagree with me on Hagaren. It's not "I'm right and you're wrong," I will admit that. The whole topic is pretty subjective, at any rate.

My bad. I was under the impression you were singling it out for some arbitrary reason such as running gags. I retract my complaint.

And besides, I'm not going to argue that FullMetal Alchemist is great literature, because I don't think it is. Pulp fiction, even with depth, is still pulp fiction. Although on that note, I wouldn't consider Death Note as up to par with "Great literature" either, if mostly due to it's excesses, though it gave it a shot.

I usually reserve "Great literature" for works that leave both an influence on the genre and the reader, preferably on the deeper end of the wading pool. As such I don't consider most Manga or Anime as anything more than popular entertainment, though occasionally more fleshed out. It's more than just masterful execution, great literature makes the reader forget these events are just words on a page, or drawings in a book. That said, the number of Manga that fall under this category I could list on one hand.

Only Naoki Urasawa has come close to achieving this.

[minakichan]

Although on that note, I wouldn't consider Death Note as up to par with "Great literature" either, if mostly due to it's excesses, though it gave it a shot.

Ohba Tsugumi specificaly said that s/he did not intend Death Note to be this hugely awesomefully deep philosophical work (although I think s/he admitted it was supposed to social commentary on modern Japan), which is why although I LIKE to say it's literature-y (should be obvious, considering, you know, I RUN A SITE THAT TRIES TO SPREAD PROPAGANDA THAT IT IS), I'll admit that it's really not 100% so. But I like to pretend it is and then write long, pretentious essays about it >_>; still, it was pulp fiction that, I believe, has achieved enough depth. I would say that the approach isn't much different from Shakespeare, who essentially wrote pulp fiction with a bunch of ridiculous crap, but people ended up overanalyzing it and saying it was awesome and poof, instant classic.

Honestly, I don't think that Japan has quite caught up with the "West" when it comes to literate comics. Certainly they exist, but I have found far less of them in the Japanese comics then I have with western comics. It should be noted that I have been reading Japanese comics for a much longer period of time than the western ones.

I dunno... have you READ some of the Japanese indie and small publishers comics? In other words, works that you'd never find on the shelves in the US, but there's quite a few in scanlation. I've seen some that are pretty darn literate, though more in a modern and postmodern lit sense.