Illegal downloads: A HUGE problem for Liscened Anime

[termyt]

FUNi didn’t do as well as expected, but they did well enough. So, on one side, that’s OK, on the other, it may cause some in the industry to worry. It may make some of the companies less aggressive in pursuing licenses. There are a lot more indicators of trouble than just Geneon, and I am, quite frankly, concerned.

ADV was at one time the premiere licensor of anime in the US but a couple of years ago, they took a step back. They complained then (at a panel at Colossal Con) that anime licenses had become very expensive due to some smaller upstart companies paying a lot more than (ADV believed) the market warranted. They took the position of a kind of “take less popular, less expensive titles and wait for the others to go bankrupt” mentality. Thus FUNi’s rise to the forefront of the industry was initiated.

Geneon’s decision to withdraw from the American distribution market is another troubling sign. It looks worse than it is, perhaps, because their deal to distribute through ADV fell through, but the decision to withdraw is still there and another indication of trouble. Geneon is a very large company and it did what is typical of very large companies when faced with a division that doesn’t make money – they got rid of it.

Media Blasters has stopped dubbing some if not all of their anime. Elitists may applaud this approach, but elitist account for very few sales.

Bandai, through their new Honnemaise line, has also stopped dubbing some titles. Worse still, the subtitled series are running at a cost premium well above the industry standard prices for dubbed anime. (Galaxy Angel Rune, for example, is sub-only and running at about $1 per episode minute).

The writing on the wall is clear to me – the anime industry in the US is in trouble. US distributors are desperately trying to figure out how to make a sustainable profit in this market. Licenses are more expensive and there is more to choose from leading to thinning profits on a lot of series.

Fansubbers and bootleggers were largely tolerated until now. Why is that? Because before, everyone was making enough money, so it wasn’t worth the hassle of dealing with a few bootlegs. Now, profits are harder to come by and bootlegging has grown into a sizeable industry. It stands to reason that struggling distributors now look at the bootlegs as lost profit. Fansubs were tolerated because they bred interest in anime in the US, but now interest is at its peak and the Japanese companies view fansubs as competition for US distributors, and thus, a loss of profits for them.

The actual profitability of anime licensers in the US is only part of the puzzle. The Japanese rights holders, who are facing lean profits themselves, are very concerned about both fansubbing and bootlegging in the US. The anime market in Japan has been in a bit of decline – which is a big reason for demanding more in licensing fees from US distributors and the large presence of bootlegs and fansubs have stopped some titles from being released over here (any fans of Legends of Galactic Heroes out there? This is one reason why it’s never been officially released here).

The bottom line is this: The anime industry is at a crossroads. The future looks to be very scary place for a lot of distributors.

There are a few things we can do as individual anime fans to help:
1) Do not buy, download, borrow, or have anything to do with bootlegs of licensed anime and encourage others to do the same. This will improve the profit and financial outlook of US distributors.
2) If you own fansubs, destroy them immediately once the anime has been released in the US and then buy a copy of the US release. This will show Japanese rights holders that the fan-subbs are truly that – subs by fans who will support anime when it becomes officially available over here.

[Mave]

You know, almost none of my anime fan friends had legal copies of anime with the exception of Cowboy Bebop (maybe the series was shorter than your super long series Naruto/Bleach) and some random movies.

I had a friend who spent more time d/led the episodes than watching them. This same friend also passed away in an accident, making me wonder what was the point of all that d/ling & anime-watching activity.....

Anyway, I used to watch anime but since obtaining anime legally is not complimentary to my financial plan, I've stopped watching anime altogether. Doubt that helps the anime industry either. Heh.

[Kaligraphic]

For my perspective, I would favor a combined JP/EN development approach. While doing both languages simultaneously would add to initial costs, launching a series simultaneously (or nearly so) in Japan and in the U.S. would cut out the rationale for fansubbers, as US fans who would otherwise have to search for fansubs could just turn on their TV. Not having downloaded fansubs for the initial viewing, people would be more likely to purchase the discs. As an added bonus, with JP and US television contracts coming in together, deserving shows would be less likely to run out of production money and be cut short.

This would actually be a great time to implement such a strategy, as the WGA strike does not affect animation writing, which is done under other contracts. There's a lot of writers out there who I believe would be willing to smooth out the EN dialogue and a lot of actors who, lacking live action scripts, might not be averse to some voice acting.

Of course, this wouldn't be practical for every series, but as long as the US is distributed as a secondary market, US fans will try to obtain goods faster from the primary market. The language barrier creates fansubs, which are de facto bootlegs already, even if they're free. Addressing the reason that fansubs exist in the first place would make them unnecessary, which would clear up a lot of the moral ambiguity in the world of anime fandom. Well, that and offering decent value for money, as ShatterheartArk already noted.

[mechana2015]

Mave makes an interesting point. Anime would be a much smaller industry if there were no publicity for it, and the advertising budgets would have to be much larger if there was no preestablished fanbases. This coupled with the fact that many fewer shows would get seen, unless there were many more channels with anime content. After that then the question is what would happen. Would it just be a massive rental system, assuming there was enough knowledge to even know what there was to be rented, or would there be a market for it at all?

[MasterDias]

Well, I assume that we would still have an anime market around even if there was never a "boom" during the 90s and all of the publicity from the internet and fansubs and such. But, we wouldn't have had near the amount of titles that we do today.

And we would also probably still have the irritating generalization that all anime is either Pokemon or porn...

Bandai, through their new Honnemaise line, has also stopped dubbing some titles. Worse still, the subtitled series are running at a cost premium well above the industry standard prices for dubbed anime. (Galaxy Angel Rune, for example, is sub-only and running at about $1 per episode minute).

That's still Bandai Visual USA who's pulling that kind of thing. It's not the same entity as Bandai Entertainment(Gundam, Haruhi, CBebop). Although, I don't think Bandai Ent. is doing all that well either.

[Roy Mustang]

That's still Bandai Visual USA who's pulling that kind of thing. It's not the same entity as Bandai Entertainment(Gundam, Haruhi, CBebop). Although, I don't think Bandai Ent. is doing all that well either.

You are right about that. Bandai Entertainment and Bandai Visual USA work as two companies then as one.

Bandai Visual USA is the one that is putting out titles on blu ray disk or in sub only format. Where Bandai Entertainment puts out titles in both sub and dub format.

To me, Bandai Visual USA is for those hard core otakus that want to pay close to the same price as what the people in Japan pay for their anime dvd's. The only dvd's from Bandai Visual USA that are worth it, are the ones that have both the blu ray and dvd in the volume.

Its just not Bandai Entertaiment USA that is not doing well, but the whole company. They have been doing a good number of cut backs in Japan.

[color="Red"][font="Book Antiqua"]Col. Roy Mustang[/font][/color]

[TriezGamer]

Kali, I think your solution is a little too idealistic. The problem is that people simply don't want to pay for their entertainment anymore. Those that will buy DVDs will buy DVDs. Anyone else is just making excuses.

[Stephen]

While doing both languages simultaneously would add to initial costs, launching a series simultaneously (or nearly so) in Japan and in the U.S. would cut out the rationale for fansubbers

Hello. Why have I never seen this brought up before? This is a great idea.

[termyt]

Interesting solution, Kaligraphic. I remember hearing at the ADV panel that, due to less profit/TV interest in Japan, Japanese studios have been looking for the US distributors to get involved in the development process - i.e. pay up front when the anime is being created for the rights to distribute it in the US down the road. As far as I know, US companies have not been jumping onto the band wagon. I think a lot of US distribution relies on finding out through the fansubbers whether or not an anime will fly here first.

Releasing the Japanese and English language versions at the same time is an excellent idea, though. It could improve US TV contracts while at the same time reducing bootlegs. The other side is anime will be more US TV friendly. That may be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on PoV, but there would be no complaints about bad editing later, at least.

[SnEptUne]

It is obvious that the ratio between people who watch fansubs of unlicensed anime and people who buy anime DVD is huge. Firstly, many title never have the chance to get licensed. Secondly, they may not have access to store or the cash to buy DVD box.

BUT, that does not meant majority of people are downloading licensed anime. If the anime is licensed and available in store at reasonable price, I bet most people will not go through the trouble of hunting down licensed anime online just to save a few dollars. I personally don't buy DVD because they are overpriced, cheap VCD anime are good enough for me.

Youtube cannot be a good indicator either. Not everyone on youtube is from American, and the sample is biased. How many people who buy anime DVD would make AMV?

[EricTheFred]

Releasing the Japanese and English language versions at the same time is an excellent idea, though. It could improve US TV contracts while at the same time reducing bootlegs. The other side is anime will be more US TV friendly. That may be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on PoV, but there would be no complaints about bad editing later, at least.

I know of at least one anime that was a simultaneous French and Japanese production, which I think was released simultaneously in both countries. "Oban Star Racers" has distinctly European-style character designs (in fact, it frankly looks just a little like "Lego Star Wars") but a genuine Japanese feel to the animation, the backgrounds, and the general quality of production, thanks to the animation work being largely Japanese.

Over the years there have been animations that were Japanese work, but built for US and/or UK release under the auspices of a US/UK contractor. And, there have been in recent years many higher quality products coming out of American and European studios. (First to come to mind, Teen Titans, Ben 10, and Samurai Jack.) I wonder how far away we are from Animation becoming a more unified marketplace, with national production focusing on voice-acting and distribution while international production works on story, character design and animation.

[KhakiBlueSocks]

Would it be a logical assumption to think that the more illegal downloads that go on, the higher DVD prices are going to be?

Off topic suggestion for those who want to access Vic's site with dialup--don't. Wait until you go to the library.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

In theory, yes. But there are TONS of other factors you have to contribute.

[Shao Feng-Li]

Hey Shao. Bestbuy has 500 gig external harddrives for 120 bucks. *laughs*

*_*

[Rocketshipper]

On the issue of joint Japanese/American involvment in anime, there was also the Yugioh Movie and Yugioh Capsule Monsters, both of which were produced by 4kids and animated/written by the japanese creators (although I doubt anyone wants them setting the standard for joint projects ^^;;;) There was also Fushigi Yugi Eikoden, which had its dub (by Geneon) created at the same time as the actual anime in Japan. The Japanese Region 2 DVDs were bi-lingual. It still took it a while to get released here though

[Blitzkrieg1701]

In theory, I think the idea of anime getting simultanious releas worldwide is a GREAT idea. It would deffinately cut away a lot of the percieved gray areas surrounding downloads and the like, and it probably would be really good for the industry. However, I doubt that'll happen any time soon. The Japanese animation industry is still pretty darn insular, and launching an English version of an anime at the same time as the Japanese would require some pretty close cooperation with western companies all through the production. At best, I'd say there's only been baby steps taken towards that goal.

[desperado]

I find it hard to invest in a dvd when I go to any dvd shop and family guy or such American series are half the price boxsetted then the anime counterparts.
Its just hard for me to spend my money on something i dont OMGWOWMUSTHAVE when its just so expensive. I do plan on getting gurren lagann boxset and raxephone but both arent going to be cheap. I mean for two expensive boxsets I could almost get a xbox 360.


I did buy tenchi recently but that was due to geneon the other day though, there goes my cushion.... Heh time to eat cheap for a month.

[Netbug009]

I admit I used to download episodes of Hoshi No Kirby, because I was sick to death of the crappy 4kids dub, but I've stopped doing that kinda stuff. I want to respect the original creators. So, I'm simply importing DVDs from Japan. I plan to get some OP ones.

[Kura Ookami]

People will pay for added value. The more value you add the more people will pay for it. If anime companies in the US either added more value or reduced the prices of anime DVDs they might sell more and end up with greater profits. Who else thinks the extras aren't worth getting and you're paying $15 or more just for the extras alone. It's so rare to get English extras like commentaries or interviews with English actors. If anime DVD's are the lowest price they can be add more value to them. Make people want the extras so they'll be willing to pay a higher price for them.

Finally I think most people who do download fansubs also buy the animes when they're licensed. I do that whenever i can, which isn't that often because of the price. I don't think fansubs are as big a contributing factor as the american distributors like to make it seem, however, we can do our bit by buying anime as it is licensed in our country.

My point? Give people more value, and they'll be willing to pay more. Make it well worth the price they are paying.

[MasterDias]

Guys, they can't really help the prices. There's licensing and dubbing costs to take into account, and they aren't exactly cheap. I doubt that removing extras would significantly affect it very much.

And realize that shows like Family Guy and Lost sell incredibly more than pretty much any anime. They can afford to price these shows cheap because they have already made oodles of money. Anime sales would have to skyrocket towards that amount, before they could seriously start lowering retail prices. And I don't see that happening, like ever.

Finally I think most people who do download fansubs also buy the animes when they're licensed. I do that whenever i can, which isn't that often because of the price. I don't think fansubs are as big a contributing factor as the american distributors like to make it seem, however, we can do our bit by buying anime as it is licensed in our country.

I think there is probably a substantial amount that do buy what they have seen on fansubs. But, I think there is also a substantial amount who don't, or don't buy titles they liked enough to watch, but didn't like enough to buy.

[Doubleshadow]

I can imagine that the anime industry has taken a hit from illegal downloads in much the same way that other forms of electronic media have (Napster, anyone?), but I think the industry will find a way to adapt if people want their products.
But, the survival of the industry isn't as much of a concern as the knowledge that people don't care if they steal from people providing a product that the love to enjoy to save money. I don't buy the argument that stealing is acceptable because you don't have the funds to spend on it, a blatant rip-off or not. I find it ironic myself; stealing from the company because you feel they are 'stealing' from you. Why not just boycott and not let a sense of entitlement take over? That way, you also add a lack of interest to the lack of revenue.
Besides, I always try to people a fair amount for their work. Why wouldn't I do that for my favorite artists? I take Shao's approach, and as soon as I figure where the mall is in this city, (no really, it took me like a month to find a Wal-Mart), I'll start some new series I've had my eye on.

[Nate]

I just want to say something here.

Radiohead released an album called In Rainbows online. They did not go under a record label. They recorded their own album, and released it online for download.

No one was forced to pay. There was a box where you entered the amount you wished to pay to download the album. You could type 0, if you wanted, and you could still download the album.

Only about 1/3 of the people who downloaded the album paid nothing for it. The average price people paid for the album was four pounds, ten dollars or so to us Americans. Since they released the album without a record company, all of that was money for them, not for some record executives.

What does this have to do with the topic? Well, no one had to pay to download that album. They COULD have paid nothing. But only about a third of the people who downloaded did that. There are people who will download stuff for free no matter what. But most people, by and large, are willing to pay money for something they enjoy.

Food for thought.

[creed4]

while I have sampled anime on youtube, I have bought many of the titles as money permitted, I try to buy the licensed release because I believe that the artist deserves pay for their work.

[desperado]

Guys, they can't really help the prices. There's licensing and dubbing costs to take into account, and they aren't exactly cheap. I doubt that removing extras would significantly affect it very much.

And realize that shows like Family Guy and Lost sell incredibly more than pretty much any anime. They can afford to price these shows cheap because they have already made oodles of money. Anime sales would have to skyrocket towards that amount, before they could seriously start lowering retail prices. And I don't see that happening, like ever.


I think there is probably a substantial amount that do buy what they have seen on fansubs. But, I think there is also a substantial amount who don't, or don't buy titles they liked enough to watch, but didn't like enough to buy.

I compared Family guy to the prices for the big reason, of most people will look at one see how much it is compared to the other and scream highway robbery.

I understand that all the hoops they have to jump through are not cheap, but in essence, selling to people is a competition. Am I going to buy two boxsets or buy a 360? Am I going to buy two anime dvds or a family guy boxset? Honestly I think the competition price wise drives most people to download illegally. It is really not about how much they are making but what the person is going to buy when they go into the store and see the costs of some of this stuff.

[Rocketshipper]

I was wondering if anyone here has seen the editorial on ANN called "An open Letter to the Industry"? Its all about this very problem and what the anime industry (mainly the japanese industry) could do about it. Here's the link. http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/editorial/2007-11-25

[ChristianKitsune]

I actually JUST read that, rocketshipper...

really opens my eyes...

Although I will still only buy boxsets. >_>

[Debitt]

It's funny, I was just talking to a few friends about the exact problems with anime distribution that they outlined in that letter. I honestly think a BIG factor in the fansubs issue is distributors failing to adjust their business model depending on the culture of their target demographics. =/

[desperado]

I was wondering if anyone here has seen the editorial on ANN called "An open Letter to the Industry"? Its all about this very problem and what the anime industry (mainly the japanese industry) could do about it. Here's the link. http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/editorial/2007-11-25

This is what I have been wanting for some time. Prices competively priced against American shows? Anime legal and available days after it starts showing? I think that alone could maybe turn the matter around. That and if the industry starts breaking out of the niche rut it has found itself in (moe for example) and come up with something new.

But as with the music industry, I forsee the anime industry not taking action soon enough to their great misfortune. I just really cant see them changing.

edit because I forgot

Death Note was a HUGE step in the right direction, but it failed in the end. Why? It started a little over halfway through the season, most people that had started downloading it had already locked onto a fansubber at that point and paid no heed to the subbed one that was being put out for pay. If they start at the same time, a few days after, maybe even a week after, the fansubbers go and put pressure on them to stop it might just do it.

[creed4]

I've been looking at the stores and it seems American new release dvd are going up. I saw movies like transformers for 25$ on the shelf, thats starting to get to the same price as anime dvd.

[ranma8]

Pirated and illegal downloads will never be stopped. The government can't afford to spend millions of dollars on bootleggers. Plus, the pirated dvds are true bargains ... 50 episodes for like 20 bucks haha. It's wrong, but hey, I can't afford to spend 2000 dollars on entire dbz seriesl, when I can spend like 90 bucks for good quality, good subs bootlegs.

-_- If you are going to be as cheap as to buy bootlegs, then why not just illegally download them online? You would still be hurting the anime industry, but you also wouldn't be rewarding pirates for bootleging anime.