Terraforming

[skynes]

!!!EVEN FURTHER OFF TOPIC!!!

I think the whole 'lack of resources' thing is a pile of cack. An excuse to put prices up.

If the earth was REALLY running out of resources do you think the entire planet would squander them so much!?

I don't...

Anyway think about it. Today we're learning how to make resources out of pretty much nothing. Silicon chips are madeo ut of SAND! Standard beach SAND!

Sure coal and oil won't last forever but we'll find a substitute. The more ppl at advanced tech working on it the faster we discover it!

[Technomancer]

Like it or not, there are real resource issues facing the world. Some of these admittedly are artificial, ultimately being more a product of global economics than physical availability. This is also true of a number of issues relating to third-world poverty. However, some aspects of resource scarcity are very real: clean water and arable land being the most significant. This problem is only going to grow worse as a result of population pressures and economic development.

Admittedly, these issues really call for a terrestrial response, which is certainly within our means. However, even if the means are there, the will may be lacking. The prisoner's dilemna unfortunately seems to hard for us to escape. Short sighted self interest has thus far trumped not only good science but human morality as well. (My apologies for the divesion, but these issues have been pushed to the front of my mind after listening to Maurice Strong talk at my school last night).

Anyways, back to the topic at hand. There are clearly economic and social benefits to using space. We enjoy right now, the fruits of earlier space science that created advances in telecommunications, and remote sensing. These themselves resulted from work that at the time was also quite speculative. Knowledge is never wasted, especially given the comparatively small price we've paid for it.

Now while I don't think that the current problems here on earth are a good justification for going into space, I do believe that as a species we have much to gain. Not only in terms of not "putting all our eggs in one basket" so to speak, but also as a step in our own evolution. We need to challenge ourselves, and to continue "the ascent of man".

[kaji]

The more, the better, is not always true. Think of the vast ammounts of resources needed to advance a nomadic tribal civilization to our own status, or even our status 100 years ago. Tons of time and money and resources needs to be spent on what would merit little gain for those doing it.
I do agree with you that money that is put adrift in space could probably be better spent here on earth, but developing a 3rd world courty seams as low a probability as colonizing space. At least in space you can make your own rules. Many 3rd world courtry are in the states they are in today because they cannot manage their resources, have to little resources to supply the entire country, and/or are torn by years of war/conflicts that waste those very resources that are so scares.
It would be easier to develope an unoccupied land.

However, I do think that we have a sort of responsibility to all our fellow man, to help then when we can. Whether its sharing our advanced medicin with them, or teaching them irragation for farming, or helping replenish a diminishing food suppy.

-kaji

[skynes]

I didn't literally mean to put everything into 3rd world countries I just meant that the money could be better spent focusing on people on earth, NOT some green men out in space.

[Technomancer]

The money spent on SETI was peanuts really. In any case, when the US government cancelled it for politcal reasons, almost all of the required money had been spent. Essentially, all they had to do was pay the electric bills. That is government waste (a little like the Skylab fiasco).

[kaji]

I agree with you, and I think that what Technomancer was saying is that by "investing" in mankind and the earth, our investment whould eventualy flow tward space anyway.

[Shinja]

i find it very unlikely that we would ever need space as a haven for civilization. for one i belive God made the earth big enough for everyone that would inhabit it. and second any money you would spend building enviroments in space could be used here on earth to purify water, and inigate deserts. though all of these projects would require a world government, or at least some global leadersip and frame work, two things i find to be of the greatest danger to the world. teriforming is cool and all, but it is unessisary, and isnt very likely to work anyway. better save it for the scifi.

[Technomancer]

though all of these projects would require a world government, or at least some global leadersip and frame work, two things i find to be of the greatest danger to the world.

Of course, I'm very much for greater global organization, so I see no problems . Realistically, though I do think that effective means of global governance are necessary, given the scope of the problems facing us as a species. We are after all now a global civilzation, and will require a global effort to combat the immediate threats to our future (e.g. climate change, environmental catastrophe, poverty, etc).

Nevertheless, I think that there is a tremendous irrestible urge in us to explore the universe, and to acquire knowledge and that it is one that we should respond to. We need to aspire to greatness, and to actively pursue it.

[JediSonic]

I don't have a problem with space travel, and I'm a Catholic.

I think doing something like that for the good of humanity isn't a bad thing until humanity is stealing it from someone else. And someone else doesn't live on mars

[DrNic]

Oh man, we're gonna run out of resources and have to move to another planet. We're heading in the same direction as 'Lost in Space'. WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!! *runs screaming out the forum*

[Fsiphskilm]

[quote="skynes"]Persona

[Lochaber Axe]

Good point Volt, the only way to totally change a government that corrupt is to change it by force. Iraq is giving us enough problems already, and the international community already hates us enough. The worst thing to do also is just to send a measly amount of soldiers as peacekeepers and expect to change anything, example: Somalia. The American government should just sit back, work either on internal problems and space, and hope the world gets better. The world isn't going to get better, so why waste billions trying to change it?

[cbwing0]

The American government should just sit back, work either on internal problems and space, and hope the world gets better. The world isn't going to get better, so why waste billions trying to change it?

I agree. Every other country on the planet openly acts based on it's own interests, so why shouldn't the U.S.?

But I don't agree with the We should worry about third world countries instead of NASA... Dude, there are always going to be third world coutries. It's the way things are, if you spend time and money on them it's not like they'll change...

Indeed...we cannot realistically eliminate poverty. The world simply cannot support the level of resource consumption enjoyed by developed countries for the entire world population. Of course we can alleviate poverty, and we are doing quite a bit of that already. This is not a new concept: "You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me" (John 12: 8).

We can't even eliminate poverty in our own country, so what makes us think that we can do it on a global scale? Instead of pursuing unrealistic goals, I think it would be better to continue space exploration and expand human knowledge. Perhaps in the process we will be able to do more to help feed the hungry; then again.

[Technomancer]

We're getting a bit far afield from the OP, but I have to disagree with Volt and Lochaber. The causes of third world poverty are rather more complex than simply saying "it's their government's fault". To a large extent it is, of course, but we should not minimize our own responsibility either. International economic systems have a lot to with it, was well as the legacies of the cold war and colonialism.

In any event, there are more options than force or nothing. Economic and political sanctions have been effective in the past (think South Africa). In addition, there is much that can be done to foster the growth of civil society on a variety of levels (e.g. through bilateralism, or working with bodies lke the UN, the Commonwealth, etc). What's needed is a mix of hard and soft power, and a knowledge of when and how to apply them.

We may never be able to eliminate poverty, but that is no excuse not to try. It is still possible to make an enormous difference, and to improve the lives of many people around the globe. It is in our interests to do this, both at home and abroad.

[Fsiphskilm]

True but when USA was

[mechana2015]

sooo.... when did a scientific thread turn into a political debate?

[Fsiphskilm]

It did??? I

[cbwing0]

sooo.... when did a scientific thread turn into a political debate?

Well, there is much more to the issue that just science. The money for such a project has to come from somewhere, adding an econimic aspect. The necessary resources would have to come from many countries, making it a political issue. Someone asked whether it was unbiblical to colonize Mars, hence religion entered the discussion. I could go on, but the point is that this is a broad topic that can be discussed from many angles.

[The_Marauding_Maniac]

Terraforming is almost needed as the population grows. We need places to stand.... And if we terraform Mars we might be able to double food! I cannot find anything wrong with it in the bible.

[Lochaber Axe]

I myself I am not against helping them to change their countries, indirectly. I once was gung-ho enough to say that we should just march in and take over, but when has that ever worked? I do agree with using economic sanctions, but that only goes so far. A belligerent country can (though it would be hard) survive without imports. This causes a lot of human rights issues, take North Korea for instance.

One good aspect created indirectly from space technology that has revolutionized many countries ability to produce food is hydroponics. Right now, Israel is producing an adequate amount of food for itself. Hydroponics allows for growing crops either in a desert or a space colony. Without the push for space exploration, why would the industrial countries need to worry about crops for unless it was looking up?

[Straylight]

Hmm, third world poverty, an interesting topic.

Although corrupt governents have a significant role to play, there is also much guilt in the developed world.

There are unfair trade regulations, where rich countries act to protect their economy by placing heavy taxes on foreign imports from poorer countries, effectively destroying pioneer industries that could help to fund better living standards.

There is also debt, anyone remember the Jubilee 2000 campaign? I remember when I was younger, I took part in a demonstration over that. Poor countries would be able to spend more money on education if they didn't have to spend so much repaying their rich debt collectors.

These issues are very real and the blood of all the children who have starved to death is on our hands, because we haven't spoken out.

Those issues are what we should be worried about. Less money being spent on NASA does not have a direct effect upon the living standards of the poor.


Hydroponics is definately an interesting topic. However people need to be taught how to build and operate a hydro system, which is pretty complicated. You also need lots of chemical fertiliser, grow mediums, a good electrical supply, and lots of water. Not really the cheapest way of growing food, and probably quite impractical for a small uneducated third world village..

[Lochaber Axe]

Hydroponics is definately an interesting topic. However people need to be taught how to build and operate a hydro system, which is pretty complicated. You also need lots of chemical fertiliser, grow mediums, a good electrical supply, and lots of water. Not really the cheapest way of growing food, and probably quite impractical for a small uneducated third world village..

But it is the most efficient way of growing crops. It also allows for the ability to grow extensively indoors leading to lessening use of pesticides and herbicides. Yes, we should focus more on updating our own agribusinesses first but then we can help the developing countries do just that; develop.

[madphilb]

Well, there is much more to the issue that just science. The money for such a project has to come from somewhere, adding an econimic aspect. The necessary resources would have to come from many countries, making it a political issus. Someone asked whether it was unbiblical to colonize Mars, hence religion entered the discussion. I could go on, but the point is that this is a broad topic that can be discussed from many angles.

And I think this is the point where you hold up Frank Herbert's DUNE and show (from his perspective anyway) the whole of it was addressed in a fiction setting

[Straylight]

[quote="Lochaber Axe"]But it is the most efficient way of growing crops. It also allows for the ability to grow extensively indoors leading to lessening use of pesticides and herbicides. Yes, we should focus more on updating our own agribusinesses first but then we can help the developing countries do just that]

I'm not slamming the idea, I actually think that it's brilliant. However I'm just pointing out that there are big practicalities involved.

I remember a while back when I was younger we went around some Fillipino villages sharing the gospel and teaching people how to become self sufficient using various livestock/farming techniques. It requires quite a lot of manpower and dedication because you need to make sure that people are fully educated about how to run their livelihood, so that you can leave them on their own. One of the projects involved fish livestock and there were quite a lot of failures along the way because the villagers made mistakes. However if a charity of some kind took hold of hydroponics and developed a cheap system, and had the manpower to educate people about it, then I think the results would be awesome.