Possible Ideas with Christian Videogaming

[Mr. SmartyPants]

No "conversion games" not that that zelda clone wasn't fun, it's just... Cheesy... Christian media is full of it, and the secular world suddenly becomes lactose intolerant when it comes to Christian media, but then again, so do I...

Can anyone say... Left Behind?

[Raiden no Kishi]

Perhaps the Lobster of Rock meant themes that align with Christian beliefs, such as wanting to do the right thing, loving your friends no matter what, etc.

.rai//

[Nate]

Perhaps the Lobster of Rock meant themes that align with Christian beliefs, such as wanting to do the right thing, loving your friends no matter what, etc.

.rai//

Still, those games also align with Buddhist beliefs, Hindu beliefs, pagan beliefs. Doing the right thing and loving your friends isn't unique to Christianity, so to tout those as Christian principles is a faulty statement. Not to say they aren't present in Christianity, but Christianity certainly isn't defined by them.

I think Joshua Christopher made a thread on this subject long ago, how morality is not the same as Christianity. Christianity is defined by grace and loving our enemies, not by good actions.

[Raiden no Kishi]

Granted ~ I wasn't necessarily vouching for the statement's complete accuracy, but trying to explain what he may have meant.

.rai//

[mssthang_1]

hmmmm....that all sounds kewl...all i could come up with is like a street fighter or tekken game that's like angels vs. demons....i know sounds lame..forget i mentioned it >.<

[rocklobster]

Still, those games also align with Buddhist beliefs, Hindu beliefs, pagan beliefs. Doing the right thing and loving your friends isn't unique to Christianity, so to tout those as Christian principles is a faulty statement. Not to say they aren't present in Christianity, but Christianity certainly isn't defined by them.

I think Joshua Christopher made a thread on this subject long ago, how morality is not the same as Christianity. Christianity is defined by grace and loving our enemies, not by good actions.

Actually what I was trying to point out was the fact that Sora tries hard to convince Riku that he's going down the wrong path. And that he never gives up on him. Even though Riku is fighting on the wrong side.

[Shinja]

am i the only one a little bit disturbed by the idea of christians FPS where you go around killing demons with spiritual weapons and powers. is this what we find in the bible? is this what God has given us to do through the great commission? is this our message to an unsaved world? seriously were we saved to further our entertainment. did Christ die that man might pretend to kill for his own enjoyment in the name of Christ? how we as christians live our lives is important not for our own future glory but also for the salvation of others. sure it would be fun to make games and to play them. but who would we be exaulting, ourselves or the Lord?

[Nate]

Actually what I was trying to point out was the fact that Sora tries hard to convince Riku that he's going down the wrong path. And that he never gives up on him. Even though Riku is fighting on the wrong side.

I don't remember that at all. The closest thing I can remember is Mickey asking Riku which path he would travel at the end of CoM, and Riku replying he would take the road to Dawn. I don't remember Sora mentioning this at all, seeing as how Sora didn't even know Riku was alive when this happened.

Riku wasn't taking the wrong path anyway... o.O

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Shinja, yes I think you are. Don't be a kill joy.

As for the whole arguement: that doing the right thing and loving your friends isn't exclusive to Christianity isn't true. Christianity = following and worshipping God, all good things originally came from God, so in essence it is exclusive to Christianity (or at least Juadism) BUT other religions have taken snippets they liked and applied them.

[Fish and Chips]

I'd rather have a game that had Christian values or elements weaved into the characters or storyline than an explicitly "Christian" game.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

So would I. Too many Christians think when it comes to games etc the message should come before the entertainment factor. No. Entertainment comes first, then the message. These are meant to be games, not devotionals.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Wow this is certainly Gravedug XD Anyway, W4J you pretty much nailed it. A Game -- Christian or not -- needs to be entertaining before it can spread a message.

The problem with Christian games is that they are simply too open and straightforward with Biblical messages and stuff. Plus you got the whole "Use prayer as a power-up" thing. A good Christian game, in my opinion, is something that has some sort of subtle message towards the end that mixes in a symbolic and allegorical style.

[uc pseudonym]

Shinja, yes I think you are. Don't be a kill joy.

Actually, he isn't. I think his criticism should be kept in mind and I highly agree that the the "Christians killing demons" game style is a bad move.

No. Entertainment comes first, then the message. These are meant to be games, not devotionals.

Yes. As someone else put it, to flip these priorities around is to do a disservice to both.

[TheMelodyMaker]

Hello, all. I hope you don't mind a little bit of insight from someone who has been developing a "Christian video game" for nearly 14 years now (and on my third try, still in progess... ). When I started making The Traveller's Guide back then, it was because even then I wasn't overly impressed with the quality of Wisdom Tree's games at the time -- even though the message was good. I had to try to make something myself that contained our Lord's good news, yet still with the same good game play quality that secular games have.

If I may ask a humble question, have I been doing my job well so far with The Traveller's Guide? Does it have that balanced "happy medium" between good game play and integrated Biblical values that people on here have been wanting? That's exactly what I'm trying to aim for.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

I think you have a good idea and kudos for the guts to do something, but dare I say I found your game a little schmaltzy and girly for my liking.
The actual gameplay (for an old skool type game is pretty good though) considering your a one man-band um game designer/programmer etc.

[TheMelodyMaker]

..."Girly?" I was indeed trying to make it look cute, because that's the kind of style I like -- but not that cute. *shrug* Oh, well; so not everyone likes that kind of style. ^_^ I'm glad you think the game is otherwise good, though. As long as it preaches the Word and is entertaining, that's the most important thing to me.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

No, what I mean is too sweet and innocent, it's hard to relate to something that is more more sugar-coated than The Sound of Music.

[TheMelodyMaker]

Well, I am aiming it for all ages; I don't want to scare little kids with anything too intense and realistic. Then again, what I currently have released is still fairly early in the game. That means it is going to get a little more exciting later on in. (Melody has no idea what I've got in store for her. )

I'm hoping that I don't sound offended, because I'm not. I am aware that not everyone likes the sweet and innocent style that I do, and that's fine. As the saying goes, "Each to one's own taste." (Or something like that.) ^_^

[uc pseudonym]

Since you asked for comments, I'll give them. I played some of the game a while back (through the end of the band arc, however far that is).

Though I would have gameplay criticisms, I realize that as a one-man development team you have limitations and so I won't go into those. It wasn't bad, though, as far as basic mechanics go. If I were writing a review I'd probably talk about some theological things as well, but I think this is because we have fundamentally different views of prayer, not because you write sloppily or anything.

Here is the one piece of constructive criticism I have to offer: I feel that the storyline to gameplay ratio is much too high for the beginning of the game. When I play a game I expect an opening sequence and then to be put into a "training" area or the first major level. Unless my memory is failing me, in The Traveler's Guide you spend quite a while talking to people and doing menial tasks before fighting anything.

The amount of non-gameplay stuff at the beginning isn't necessarily too much (though I did feel the statements of Christian beliefs came pretty thick), it just comes too early. Consider the Final Fantasy games, which typically have endings that can take a good 30 minutes to watch. But they've earned that time because by that point you care somewhat about the characters.

For whatever that's worth.

[TheMelodyMaker]

If I were writing a review I'd probably talk about some theological things as well, but I think this is because we have fundamentally different views of prayer, not because you write sloppily or anything.

Although I'm not entirely sure what you mean here, I do suspect that you're referring to the player-controlled "pray function". I have already addressed this issue on Guiding Her Travels, if you'd like to read what I have to say about it there...

http://www.christianmanga.com/tg/forums/index.php?showtopic=21

Here is the one piece of constructive criticism I have to offer: I feel that the storyline to gameplay ratio is much too high for the beginning of the game. When I play a game I expect an opening sequence and then to be put into a "training" area or the first major level. Unless my memory is failing me, in The Traveler's Guide you spend quite a while talking to people and doing menial tasks before fighting anything.

This was brought up to me once by a good friend of mine quite a while back, though at the time I wasn't quite sure how I was going work it in -- and then I totally forgot about it. Now that I think about it again, I may be able to work something in there after all. I'll see what I can come up with.

The amount of non-gameplay stuff at the beginning isn't necessarily too much (though I did feel the statements of Christian beliefs came pretty thick), it just comes too early. Consider the Final Fantasy games, which typically have endings that can take a good 30 minutes to watch. But they've earned that time because by that point you care somewhat about the characters.

This is something that I never considered, and it's probably too late to do anything about now. Because I've gotten to know and care about my own characters over a span of many years of working on this game, I never thought about how someone to whom they're new would react. There will be plenty of time for character development, though. You don't know Melody yet like you think you do. ]For whatever that's worth.[/QUOTE]
^_^ Thank you for your input (and yours too, W4J). And my apologies for hijacking this thread.

[uc pseudonym]

Although I'm not entirely sure what you mean here, I do suspect that you're referring to the player-controlled "pray function". I have already addressed this issue on Guiding Her Travels, if you'd like to read what I have to say about it there...

Not precisely, but don't worry about it. I actually do like that the prayer mechanic seems wholly spiritual. That is, when you fight a boss afterwards the story continues as if you didn't spend a while running around and such and it was just a prayer.

This was brought up to me once by a good friend of mine quite a while back, though at the time I wasn't quite sure how I was going work it in -- and then I totally forgot about it. Now that I think about it again, I may be able to work something in there after all. I'll see what I can come up with.

It wouldn't be too difficult. Anything that puts a segment before she gets to her home and such, even a dream sequence, could suffice. This might be an oversight on my part, but you also might want to indicate that you can jump more clearly. I didn't know you could until I couldn't get up the stage and began to get annoyed.

[TheMelodyMaker]

It wouldn't be too difficult. Anything that puts a segment before she gets to her home and such, even a dream sequence, could suffice.

I got it worked in today! ^_^ When I eventually get around to releasing WIP 3.2, make it a point to examine Melody's dresser.

This might be an oversight on my part, but you also might want to indicate that you can jump more clearly. I didn't know you could until I couldn't get up the stage and began to get annoyed.

I always wondered if people had trouble figuring out where they can jump due to the graphics. I could try to do something about that (though it's no promise), but for the time being I simply changed one word in Melody's final monologue before that point as follows...

It looks as though the fastest way there is to get up on stage...

It looks as though the fastest way there is to jump up on stage...

I think I'll also add one extra hint to the Strategy Tips part of the manual: "If something's in the way, try jumping over it." ^_^

[Photosoph]

As others have said, I think the story and game should possibly come first. Sometimes the message can come first and then the game... but I agree with the former.
As a writer (not claiming to be great at it; just claiming to write something every now and again XD ), I started out writing stories just for kicks. But as I improved and became a better writer, the stories I wrote were inspired by things that I really cared about. So their themes and events followed a line that did more than just give the reader (or rather, writer ) 'kicks' of entertainment, but actually told a story that, though guised in completely different settings, with unreal characters etc, put forth an issue that I, as the writer, felt strongly about.
So I think if you come up with the idea for a game first, if you can find a story you feel passionate about, it may just be that it's because you've found a way to tell what you're feeling inside. You know how they say writing and playing instruments can be a good release? I think it's because you're able to say what you're not able to say straight out in the open. And when it comes to stories, it can mean you really want to say something important: a statement about life, about God, etc.

Where this applies to games is that storyline is a major factor. If you have a good story, and develop good scenarios and gameplay for it, you can make an excellent game. So you might write a story about a superhero who faces a mammoth challenge of some sort (such as a truly evil villain, though pardon my cliche'd example please), but in the end he finds he doesn't have enough strength on his own, despite his talents, to save the day, and everything he loves. At that point, though I wouldn't want to make it preachy, but more subtle, you could have him do something like wearily go in and sit in a church. And if you had the write music, and the right graphics to convey the atmosphere, as well as a few spoken/written thoughts of his appear on the screen, you might be able to show that in the end we're all powerless; we can't do it all ourselves. And with the church, his thoughts, and perhaps even an event with meeting someone there, you could subtley show that we need to look to God for strength; we can't trust in our own, or just give the player of the game a nudge to send their thoughts in that direction. After that, perhaps a change of behaviour and even slightly changing the gameplay could help to emphasise that something happened back there for him, even if you didn't say anything specific.

Hope you don't mind my two cents worth.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

While many games require a good storyline to be better, that does not apply to every genre. Most shooters only have a meager plot, as it's all about the gameplay. Puzzle games obviously don't need a story. And you also have side-scrollers, simulation, fighting games, multiplayer, etc. Those do not require a story either.

Now RPGs and Adventure games are definitely require a good story more than any other videogame genre. I will say that; as you are playing for the story as well as the gameplay.

However in rare instances, there is a game like a shooter than also has an amazing storyline. These games are considered amazing, revolutionary, simply awesome, etc etc. (Such games include Half-Life, Gears of War, (For it's immense character development, thus it gets a mention) and Metal Gear Solid)

[uc pseudonym]

While many games require a good storyline to be better, that does not apply to every genre.

I agree. However, I would argue that while they do not require a solid storyline to be good, they do require one to be Christian. If the FPS has a simplistic Christianity-related premise (kill the demons) then it's exactly like all the other excuses to run around shooting things. As has been said here before, there is no real difference between using a Bible Bomb and a grenade to fight enemies.

As for puzzle games, I think that making Christian versions of them would be pointless. Does it really matter if there's a picture of Jesus as the background for a Tetris knockoff? On the other hand, there's no harm in it.

[Raiden no Kishi]

As has been said here before, there is no real difference between using a Bible Bomb and a grenade to fight enemies.

Wikipedia, HO!

...And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this, Thy hand grenade, that with it, Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits... in Thy mercy." And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats and large chu...And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then, shalt thou count to three. No more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbeth thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it." Amen.

Sorry, UC-sama. I just couldn't resist.

I do, however, agree with the sentiment that it is the storyline that adds Christian elements to a game. The trick is to hire good writers who know how to weave Christian themes into a story without beating you over the head with them.

.rai//

[righteous_slave]

How about a historical RPG set in the first century telling the tale of a new believer trying to learn his (or her, unlockable character, replay the whole game dealing with gender issues of the times as well as religious persecution!!!) faith, reach new believers, and survive during periods of persecution? Hiding from soldiers, debating who can be trusted not to turn you over, and simply surviving in the period, not just as a believer, but also as an everyday citizen. Maintaining supplies, keeping jobs (especially after witnessing to the boss), a roof over your head, or living out in the wilderness when neccessary.
No, I don't know how the combat system would work, or where to fit supernatural miracles and the like in, but hey, it's a start.

[Photosoph]

I think if someone wrote a great story for that, you could fit some really neat elements in there. And personally I wouldn't care if that would or would not appeal to non-Christians; that just sounds like a good idea for a game to me. It could be a decent one for the Christian market. And if good enough, some athiests would probably end up playing it too. A non-Christian friend of ours really enjoyed 'Spiritual Warfare' (an old RPG-ish but not quite... more like a sort of Zelda game made by the same people who made 'Noah's Ark' and that 'Baby Moses' game, which I enjoyed... hm... maybe I should go back and play them again... ^_^ ) despite its distinct Christian-ness.

As for the combat system for your idea... not sure how the actual fighting would fit in, but you could definitely use elements like jumping, dodging, prayer, stealth, etc. Perhaps it would be sort of an 'adventure' game... but with a little more FPS value. Not in the killing people department, more that perhaps you would react to and with other people's (or NPC's) reactions more. Trying to lose the guards... maybe even knocking out a couple, though I'm not sure about that... jumping and doging, etc.
I think it would be very cool to have goals such as 'delivering supplies', perhaps even trying to rescue people from prison, etc. Living out in the wilderness could be great too.
That sounds like a really great idea, Righteous Slave. ^^ Good one.

[Myoti]

There's a certain 'game series' storyline I've been working with for awhile now (sort of a complex sci-fi/fantasy style), but recently I made a rather odd discovery, namely in how well the story's world (or 'galaxy,' I suppose) could fit into a sort of 'Christian' realm.

There's alot I'd have to explain on it, so I'll probably wait till I can actually write up a script/history, but the basis has a slight representation of different themes, such as different kinds of 'believers,' those who don't believe (though they're not always represented as flat-put 'evil'), the power churches/denominations can have (for good or ill), how a believer should truly look and act upon lost people (there's actually a lot that works with a slight 'conflict' between the medieval crusades and Christ's teachings of grace).

I'm still working on alot of the details, but it really interests me how much I already put into this story that could work so well with Christian themes (I'll try to get up something slightly more 'in-depth' soon).

[Photosoph]

That sounds really cool, Myoti. Not sure what else to say about that; I'd like to say that it's like what I previously said: if you write a story, what you think of as important often comes into it, but I can't say that your story is definite proof of that or anything. My idea on that is still a theory, and one that I find works with me, but of course it probably wouldn't be true for everyone.
Anyway... like I said, that sounds cool, Myoti. ^^