Zazen

[AnimePriest]

hi, i know this probably belongs in the theology forum but i really didn't like that site too much and i thought no one would mind if i posted this here. Zazen means zen meditation, it is not a religion it is just a form of clearing the mind through meditation, many Christians are practicing this now and many say it actually increases their prayer life. zazen is not a form of praying or anything. zen in itself is not a religion, it can be a religion if u attach it with a religion such as zen buddhism, but zen isn't a religion. and zazen is just meditation, a Catholic priest in Japan practices zazen, he says it helps clear the mind and says he is a zen fan who has found Christ, many people of all different religions practice this so i don't think u have to be a certain religion to practice zazen. there is even a book called Christians and Zen: A Beginner's Guide, and i was wondering if you all could give me your opinion on this. what do you think of Christians practicing zazen (zen meditation).

[SwordSkill]

i haven't started yet, but i've been planning to read up on some Zen and Taoism books and try putting it in practice myself. and yeah, same here, if i'm ever going to try some meditation (but then i can never sit still for long, lol...tried hara concentration during aikido, but my mind kept wandering) i'm going to do it not as a religion but just as physical maintenance...for the bloodstream and life force and energy nodes (like in acupuncture).

[ShiroiHikari]

...Sounds fishy to me....

[cbwing0]

Zazen means zen meditation, it is not a religion it is just a form of clearing the mind through meditation, many Christians are practicing this now and many say it actually increases their prayer life.

There are a lot of Christians who do many things that I would never consider doing myself. Unfortunately, error is very common in the church. Just keep this in mind: the fact that many Christians are doing something does not mean that it is biblical.

Although the bible does not specifically mention Zen or meditation, there is one verse that, in my opinion, indicates that such a practice is either unproductive or outright unbiblical:

"And when you pray, do not keep on babbling on like the pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words" (Matthew 6:7, NIV).

The KJV is (unusually ]"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."[/size]

Unless I am mistaken, much of meditation revolves around intense focus on a single word, idea, or concept; in other words, it is nothing but "vain repetitions" of the same thing over and over. This may improve concentration, but there is no reason to believe that it will improve your prayer life.

Besides, there are plenty of ways to improve concentration without treading on theologically shaky ground. For example, weight training is an excellent way to build both focus and determination, in addition to improving health and fitness.

Of course, I cannot say with certainty (from a biblical standpoint) that Zen meditation is wrong, but there is evidence that it is; and for this reason, I would advise against it.

[CAAOutkast]

I agree, cbwing0. plus I don't think it's smart for a christian to get into Taoism, because It's based on myths and white lies{much like hinduism} SwordSkill, I'm gonna pray for you.

[HikariChan]

i dont go to church but i still believe in god.
am i bad cause i dont go?

[AnimePriest]

meditation involves thinking of nothing no repetition or praying it is a way to clear one's mind. so why is it so wrong if there is no worshipping or praying to another god.

[cbwing0]

so why is it so wrong if there is no worshipping or praying to another god.

Let's think about that logic...atheism doesn't involve the worship of another God, yet it is still wrong. The same could be said of all sins except for idolatry.

I can't really say any more at the moment (I have to get to class ), but I will provide a more complete reply later if this does not convince you.

[Technomancer]

If it improves personal concentration and focus, I don't see anything especially wrong with it. In fact, depending on the abilities of the practioner, it can mean the ability to access different states of conciousness. And of course, such states are purely natural, even if they are not commonly experienced.

Depending on the what the prayer is focussed on, it does not sound as if the nature and ultimate goal is tremendously different from saying the rosary.

[AnimePriest]

thank you technomancer, that is what i meant, meditation just clears the mind and helps to improve focus and concentration. no prayer or anything just an activity to help clear the mind so how can it be wrong. i am a Christian i love God with all my heart and i thank the Lord everyday that Jesus died for us. i constantly pray, and I love the Lord. i just can't see what is wrong with meditation, but i did ask all of you and i thank you for your opinions and please keep posting.

[Ashley]

Hmm, let's hear what the bible has to say about meditation:

"Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it."--Joshua 1:8

"But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on his law he meditates day and night."--Psalm 1:2

"I will meditate on all your works and consider all your mighty deeds."--Psalm 77:12

"My eyes stay open through the watches of the night, that I may meditate on your promises"--Psalm 143:5

These are just a handful of passages, yet in all of them they have the same context: someone declaring their love and devotion to the Lord. I think meditating in this context has to do with loving the Lord with all of your mind (love the Lord your God with all of your heart, with all of your strength, and with all of your mind)--by dedicating your thoughts to the Lord, you are showing devotion to Him.

Now, whether zen meditation falls under the same category as this obviously holy meditation, I can't tell you for sure. I guess in theory you could use some of the techniques and instead of focusing on nothing focusing on different aspects of God, but it sounds a little dangerous to me personally.

And now, I have to say this, be sure that the discussion stays open, friendly, and courteous or it will be closed as always guys.

[cbwing0]

I guess in theory you could use some of the techniques and instead of focusing on nothing focusing on different aspects of God, but it sounds a little dangerous to me personally.

That is the heart of the matter. In all the examples of meditation in the bible, the individual meditates on something, specifically the Word, works, and/or nature of God. In contrast, "clearing your mind" implies that you are not thinking about anything in particular, thus it is not the same as the biblical definition of meditation, which I believe is more accurately termed "reflection" in modern terminology.

In fact, depending on the abilities of the practioner, it can mean the ability to access different states of conciousness. And of course, such
states are purely natural, even if they are not commonly experienced.

I would disagree with you there. In attempting to reach "different states of consciousness," one could be brought into contact with demonic realms/forces, which would obviously not be good. Furthermore, I believe that if meditation were in any way essential to our understanding of God or His Word, He would have given more details about it in the Bible. This brings to mind 1 Corinthians 6:12: "Everything is permissible for me'--but not everything is beneficial. 'Everything is permissible for me--but I will not be mastered by anything."

Of course you could meditate, but is it not better to reflect on the Word of God, or to pray as we are taught to pray, rather than relying upon methods of dubious effectiveness and origin?

Nevertheless, act as your own conscience convicts you.

[SwordSkill]

SwordSkill, I'm gonna pray for you.

thanks for the offer, Christisright. ^^ always nice to have someone praying for you.

oh yeah, just some added info. i think what cbwing meant in the "babbling of words" is the koan...which is like a mantra you repeat to yourself. i guess you could parallel that to the Catholic rosary and the counting of beads. i'm certainly not going in that direction; like i said, i'm there for the sake of my physical well-being. as far as i'm concerned, my spiritual well-being's already in the hands of God anyway.

yes, Taoism is dangerous...for one thing, it believes in the world as a nothingness with certainly no absolute Being over it. but i guess that's the trick...as a mature Christian delving into something potentially dangerous, one should be able to discern what would clash with your own beliefs and what would not and know how to pick around them.

[Fsiphskilm]

I beleive that Tao meditation and Biblical meditation are two seperate things... Just like worshiping God and worshiping Zeus.

The biblical med. is more of a pure and harmless way to trance with God, while the others. Well you're opening your mind and soul to a lot of spirits out there and most if not all are bad, evil spirits. When evil sees a door it goes through it and spreads. So the whole "out of body" expeireince...

I Don't trust it. While I'm out of my body I leave it vulnerable to many things and so I don't think It's safe : )

[ShiroiHikari]

I'd say if there's any doubt about it, it's not worth risking it.

[EireWolf]

The Psalmist meditated, and so did some other Biblical figures... but it was always God-centered.

I can see the danger in meditating just to "clear the mind." Others have already mentioned that you may open some doors to spirits that shouldn't be allowed to come in. However, I see nothing wrong with a Christian doing God-centered meditation, to open oneself to God.

Thanks for asking this question. I've been wondering about meditation myself lately, and now that I have to type out an answer I am clear about it in my own mind.

[Vampi]

I don't see how you can combine Zen with Christianity, or even use one for the other. Zen is....well....weird...... It's what many samurai used to make themselves feel like nothing matters because that's what Zen teaches. "Nothing-ness" is like a state of supremecy and the ultimate level of spirituality. It also teaches reincarnation so you alwayz feel like you have a second chance at obtaining the highest level. Not to mention it's a Buddhist religion...or at least originated from one! (btw...Zen teaches to clear the mind by thinking of the most worthless pieces of ideas till your brain explodes and you realize there is no answer....I don't think that kind of meditation will work with God's word....) I think Taoism is similar (of course...I wasn't paying attention during those classes so all I have are primitive notes....). Taoism believes in harmony with nature. Everything is accomplished by doing nothing.......... So mainly their meditations were to sit out in nature...stare at the place....and get drunk.

I wouldn't try to combine ANYTHING from another religion to Christianity at all...it just doesn't work. If you wonder whether it's alright to do something like this...I (note the "I") suggest drop it because it's probably the Holy Spirit that's trying to warn you.

[Mr. Rogers]

I would disagree with you there. In attempting to reach "different states of consciousness," one could be brought into contact with demonic realms/forces, which would obviously not be good.

i tried meditation before I was a Christian and that's exactly what happened. DON'T MESS AROUND IN THAT STUFF!

[Psycho Ann]

I remember reading a passage somewhere in the NT about not emptying your mind, to always keep it in focus (any idea's anyone which one it is?). Emptying your mind would be taking down barriers and that is simply dangerous in every spiritual sense. Things go in and you might not even know it. A lot of bad stuff happen when you set yourself "free" from the focus/logic/control that God so graciously gave us.

Meditating on the sense of emptying one's mind to gain a higher grasp of spirituality is just nonsense. When fooling around with the spiritual realm a mind sharply centered on God is the one thing you need the most. I agree with the majority here, mind-blanking is either useless or just plaing dangerous. Meditating on God's words is the only safe way to do this. And regular sleep too.

[NightHedgehog]

I agree, cbwing0. plus I don't think it's smart for a christian to get into Taoism, because It's based on myths and white lies{much like hinduism} SwordSkill, I'm gonna pray for you.

You know, just because we don't believe in it, doesn't give us any right to say that it's a bunch of lies.

[Ashley]

Alright, I think this thread's been successfully answered, and I'm going to close it before your comment, hedgehog, explodes. However, to answer definitively for the Christians on board here,

"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."--John 14:6

That is all the right we need to say what is true and what is not. Whether you believe in Jesus or not is something you will have to come to terms with someday, and I pray you will make the right decision about it. Keep in mind this is first and foremost a Christian site--we're not going to back down on our beliefs or "become more tolerant" towards other religions. If that offends you, I am not going to apologize for it; the truth will step on people's toes, that's all I can say.

Now then, this thread has had some good, solid answers to it. AnimePriest, if you have further questions, why don't you speak to your minister about it, ok?