FMA is the only manga I've read (not that I've read very much....) that utilizes the literary element of foreshadowing.
minakichan wrote:Ohba Tsugumi specificaly said that s/he did not intend Death Note to be this hugely awesomefully deep philosophical work (although I think s/he admitted it was supposed to social commentary on modern Japan), which is why although I LIKE to say it's literature-y (should be obvious, considering, you know, I RUN A SITE THAT TRIES TO SPREAD PROPAGANDA THAT IT IS), I'll admit that it's really not 100%]
I have similar feelings. In the end, however, I guess I come down on the side of giving it literary value because it tries to say something worthwhile about a human value like justice.the_wolfs_howl wrote:Okay, just thought I'd point something out. You've all said that no anime or manga can compare to Shakespeare. Can you even say that any modern bit of prose writing compares to Shakespeare? I don't think people can even write like that anymore. So trying to compare something made within the last decade or two to Shakespeare or Dickens is rather useless, if you ask me.
minakichan (post: 1190641) wrote:I dunno... have you READ some of the Japanese indie and small publishers comics? In other words, works that you'd never find on the shelves in the US, but there's quite a few in scanlation. I've seen some that are pretty darn literate, though more in a modern and postmodern lit sense.
MasterDias wrote:To be honest, I think it might be decades too early to seriously say what titles would consitute this. Lots of what we consider "literature" wasn't considered so until centuries later.
Godly Paladin wrote:I would never consider Berserk to be literary. Heck, I think it's a D-grade piece of work even for anime. That's just me, though.
Godly Paladin (post: 1190829) wrote:I would never consider Berserk to be literary. Heck, I think it's a D-grade piece of work even for anime. That's just me, though.
Heck, I don't even understand who says what classic literature is. A Tale of Two Cities? That book was TERRIBLE!
Cognitive Gear (post: 1190549) wrote:The first question is, what is literature?
According to Merriam Webster:
For the purposes of this question, we will focus on definition 3A1.
Honestly, I think there are few Japanese comics that fall into this category. Most of them that do fall under the "excellence of form" category. Few manage to truly express ideas of permanence or universal interest.
Honestly, I don't think that Japan has quite caught up with the "West" when it comes to literate comics. Certainly they exist, but I have found far less of them in the Japanese comics then I have with western comics. It should be noted that I have been reading Japanese comics for a much longer period of time than the western ones.
Shadowalker wrote:Out of curiousity, which western comics would you consider on par with good literature, and/or managing to truly express ideas of permanence or universal interest?
minakichan (post: 1190779) wrote:I brought up Shakespeare and Dickens because when they were writing, everyone thought their crap was crap, but it ended up being not-so-crap, at least according to crap lit experts and critics today. Similarly, most people think anime and manga is crap, and lots of it truly is crap, but some of the crap might me less craptastic than other crap, and eventually, some future literary expert is going to look at the not-so-crap and decide that it really is not-so-crap and everything will be hunky-dory.
Nate (post: 1191294) wrote:*Image Cut*
Sadly I couldn't find the one with the words "ONE OF TIME MAGAZINE'S 100 BEST NOVELS" across the top.
I also kind of wanted to post pictures of Kingdom Come, The Killing Joke, and The Long Halloween on here, but I figured I'd go with number one.
uc pseudonym (post: 1190774) wrote:The only one? Foreshadowing is a pretty common element of modern shonen (anything where it isn't being made up by the chapter). Even a mainstream series like Bleach has some pretty heavy foreshadowing, from trivial character references to thematic hints that didn't play out for 20+ volumes.
Nate (post: 1191125) wrote:Heck, I don't even understand who says what classic literature is. A Tale of Two Cities? That book was TERRIBLE!
Nate (post: 1191294) wrote:
Sadly I couldn't find the one with the words "ONE OF TIME MAGAZINE'S 100 BEST NOVELS" across the top.
I also kind of wanted to post pictures of Kingdom Come, The Killing Joke, and The Long Halloween on here, but I figured I'd go with number one.
minakichan wrote:Oh man. Berserk is one title I'm not touching with a 15-foot pole.
minakichan wrote:Mm, Maus won a Pulitzer. That's pretty dang hardcore.
Shadowalker wrote:I've never read Watchmen myself, but I do know that it's critically acclaimed.
Cognitive Gear (post: 1191346) wrote:Thank you. I would also add The Sandman, The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Maus, and the list goes on from there. There are not many, but they do exist.
uc pseudonym (post: 1191448) wrote:Since people are showing interest, let me backpedal a bit in regard to Berserk. Though I think it is probably the best mainstream seinen (is that an oxymoron?) title currently running, I wouldn't endorse it wholeheartedly. Though there are strong literary elements and even philosophy, you have to read 30+ volumes to get at them. Among those volumes are some weak arcs and some violence that is simply mindless.
As in not read with a 15-foot pole, or you're not going to give us your opinion?
Another excellent work of graphic literature. This is one that shows its depth from nearly the start, and the simple art style shows itself effective as it progresses. There are too many Holocaust stories, but Maus managed to set itself apart for me. Most framed stories have the frame as a simple device or an excuse for narration, but here it is what gives the work so much depth.
For however little it is worth, Watchmen is strongly endorsed by me. Well written in story and dialogue, morally complex, fascinating take on heroism as pathology, action that exists only when necessary but is solidly done... I couldn't ask for much more.
uc pseudonym (post: 1191448) wrote:Since people are showing interest, let me backpedal a bit in regard to Berserk. Though I think it is probably the best mainstream seinen (is that an oxymoron?) title currently running, I wouldn't endorse it wholeheartedly. Though there are strong literary elements and even philosophy, you have to read 30+ volumes to get at them. Among those volumes are some weak arcs and some violence that is simply mindless.
As in not read with a 15-foot pole, or you're not going to give us your opinion?
Another excellent work of graphic literature. This is one that shows its depth from nearly the start, and the simple art style shows itself effective as it progresses. There are too many Holocaust stories, but Maus managed to set itself apart for me. Most framed stories have the frame as a simple device or an excuse for narration, but here it is what gives the work so much depth.
For however little it is worth, Watchmen is strongly endorsed by me. Well written in story and dialogue, morally complex, fascinating take on heroism as pathology, action that exists only when necessary but is solidly done... I couldn't ask for much more.
Shadowalker wrote:The Sandman? Hhhmmm... I've read some of it. I have to be frank - it frequently struck me as pretentious goth stuff. I'm not saying that it wasn't highly intellectual, or philosophical, but it just felt like it was trying too hard to me at times. Kind of like the various Adam Warlock comics that Marvel put out
Shadowalker wrote:So Maus is about the Holocaust? Interesting - I might see if I can pick it up somewhere then.
Shadowalker wrote:I have to admit that I have a bit of a reluctance to read Watchmen. I've heard it stated that the series basically endores the concept of "the ends justify the means" through an action that one of the characters took near or at the end of it. Would you say that this is a fair criticism of Watchmen, or not?
Shadowalker (post: 1191450) wrote:The Sandman? Hhhmmm... I've read some of it. I have to be frank - it frequently struck me as pretentious goth stuff. I'm not saying that it wasn't highly intellectual, or philosophical, but it just felt like it was trying too hard to me at times. Kind of like the various Adam Warlock comics that Marvel put out.
Hey, I said I don't read much manga, so what do I know? FMA was the only one I've read where the foreshadowing really struck out at me. And I'm not including anime in this, because there is lots of foreshadowing in the animes I've seen.
As in not read with a 15-foot pole, or you're not going to give us your opinion?
Shadowalker wrote:I thoroughly enjoyed both Kingdom Come, and the Killing Joke... however, I'm not sure if there's much permanence or universality to the ideas or themes explored within them.
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