CAA: Christian Anime Alliance

Did anyone else catch last night's Glee? I'm not a fan of the show (I generally just pop in while my wife is watching to see the singing), but I did watch it in its entirity last night. The episode was about religion and particularly Christianity. I wrote a blog entry about a few things I noticed (http://beneaththetangles.wordpress.com/2010/10/06/spirituality-in-the-anime-blogosphere-glee-finds-god/).

Any comments?

From your description that sounds like the director of glee has actually been through that experience. I have seen (and been in) just this sort of situation, where someone has a problem and all they are offered is 'I'll pray for you' rather than possibly offering the person more substantial assistance. Often 'i'll pray for you' or even the act of praying over them is used in place of actually talking to a person and getting to know their struggle and finding what can be done.

You mention "where’s the followup? Where’s the understanding? Where is the compassion? Where is CHRIST?" in relation to the reaction of the church and how unrealistic it seems, and I have an answer for you regarding that. It's not unrealistic. I've been in a position similar to said character, being brought into a christian group and led to share a problem with them, then getting 'prayer' and no followup. I've left several churches for various reasons, churches or religeous organizations I had shared problems and other concerns with, and rather than getting some sort of 'why did you leave' or 'we miss you' on Facebook or email I've gotten no response at all, as if I didn't matter in the first place.

(Don't read this as an indictment of our prayer forum here though, since due to the limitations of internet privacy and whatnot pure prayer is all that many can offer.)

I agree with mech. It seems like churches these days do nothing BUT just pray or say "let's pray for them" and never do anything to help. I'd get into more detail, but it would be political, so I'll just leave it at that.

I agree with Mechana, and will say that I've been through that myself- especially lately, when I've been actively trying to find a church community. I'm in an especially religious area, and have been to a different church each Sunday since school started. This is exactly what's been happening to me, in fact.

It's totally realistic, which is unfortunate.

Tossing my two pennies in with Mech here as well. I, for one, am pretty tired of churches passing the buck. Praying for people is fine and obviously I do think that the prayers of a child of God have some power, but that doesn't mean Christians should stand by and do nothing. After all, faith without works is dead-- as you said in your blog post.

Despite all of the weak points of the episode, one (and maybe just one) scene rang loudly and true. Sue’s visit with her sister provided her sister and opportunity to say something profound about God. Just because things don’t go our way doesn’t mean God doesn’t care. Sue’s sister is more at peace with the world than Sue will probably ever be; her disability is not something holding her back, and she loves God despite it.

I agree with this. I watched the episode last night (though I've been largely disappointed with Glee ever since the first half of season 1 ended--the second half and season two haven't been nearly as clever or witty as the first half, but I digress), and for a large majority of the show, I was somewhat frustrated with it. I found the "Grilled Cheesus" storyline to be ill-conceived and pretty stupid, and I thought Kirk's and Sue's viewpoints felt like a largely untactful soapbox. By the time the show ended and wrapped up its plotlines, I had less of a problem with it (though it still missed the mark in a lot of ways).

I was pleased that Emma (one of few reasonable characters on the show) pointed Finn away from praying to a grilled cheese sandwich without saying "God doesn't exist so stop praying to Him" like Sue was suggesting. And I agree that Mercedes's and Kirk's visit to the church at the end felt kind of hollow. The show certainly wasn't slamming religion, given the way it ended. But I guess that's kind of the point--early in the episode, it was pretty clear that they were focusing less on a positive view of Christianity alone and more on vague spirituality, which is hugely prevalent in America today as it is.

I will say it was very realistic: I'm not even kidding when I say that during a commercial break, a spot for the news came on and mentioned a story about someone receiving MRI results for a tumor, and they could see Jesus's or an angel's face in the image and thought it was some kind of sign. It's a very accurate critique of "church-world" today--people are so much more likely to lean towards superstitions and an attempt to make faith something "magical," when it's so much more than that. At any rate, it was definitely a multi-layered critique of a number of worldviews, especially given the fact that Kirk and Sue, who both shared viewpoints vehemently against Christianity and religion both seemed to come to better terms with religion by the end (though it wasn't necessarily an accurate representation of what Christianity is supposed to be). I think it was especially critiquing people like Kirk, who demand tolerance yet refuse to extend it to others (i.e., being angry with everyone who offered to pray for his father instead of accepting any form of help).

I don't have a problem with the show tackling these sorts of issues; in fact, I think it's a good thing for popular shows to get people thinking about what they believe (just look at Lost XD). But I don't think it pulled it off 100% successfully, simply because all viewpoints aren't represented as accurately as they could have been. Also, I've heard they're introducing a Christian character who hates gays this season, so...that'll go over well. XD

But hey, at least this episode wasn't Lady Gaga-themed. XD

Radical Dreamer (post: 1429485) wrote:Also, I've heard they're introducing a Christian character who hates gays this season, so...that'll go over well. XD

Ummmmm, okaaaay. I thought this was a show about singing or something like that. Not exactly the kind of show I'd expect to tackle serious issues such as this.

ShiroiHikari (post: 1429489) wrote:Ummmmm, okaaaay. I thought this was a show about singing or something like that. Not exactly the kind of show I'd expect to tackle serious issues such as this.

They're all about the serious issues. They had an entire season with a meta-plot involving tean pregnancy.

ShiroiHikari (post: 1429489) wrote:Ummmmm, okaaaay. I thought this was a show about singing or something like that. Not exactly the kind of show I'd expect to tackle serious issues such as this.

Well, there's lots of singing in the show, but ultimately it's a show about overcoming adversity (mostly in a high school setting, but sometimes outside of that), "being yourself," etc. It's not surprising to me that the show is going deeper than surface-level. My problem with the apparent introduction of this character is that they've already introduced ultra-conservative Christians who eat, sleep, and breathe the words of *insert I'd-really-rather-not-go-into-it-on-CAA political show here* and disown their daughter when they find out she's pregnant out of wedlock. All I'm saying is that it'd be nice to explore other ends of the spectrum. XD

Radical Dreamer (post: 1429485) wrote: Also, I've heard they're introducing a Christian character who hates gays this season, so...that'll go over well. XD

Unfortunately this isn't unrealistic either... I'm beginning to suspect that the writers or somebody have either pooled their collective experiences with church or have one person who's had an all too common string of bad experiences on staff that has some pull in the story of the show.

Edit: Based on the post just above mine it's probably the pooled experiences explanation, especially since the 'out of wedlock' reaction is totally realistic as well, and it's entirely possible, depending on the social makeup of the community for all of these to happen in one high school.

Oh, I see. I've never seen it, only heard about it. I think I'll pass, honestly. We don't need more shows depicting negative Christian stereotypes, if you ask me.

ShiroiHikari (post: 1429498) wrote:Oh, I see. I've never seen it, only heard about it. I think I'll pass, honestly. We don't need more shows depicting negative Christian stereotypes, if you ask me.

I think the real unfortunate part is that they aren't stereotypes by a long shot.

ShiroiHikari (post: 1429498) wrote:Oh, I see. I've never seen it, only heard about it. I think I'll pass, honestly. We don't need more shows depicting negative Christian stereotypes, if you ask me.

The thing about it is that it's usually a pretty accurate critique of those negative Christian stereotypes. Unfortunately, it's usually preaching to the choir. The stereotyped often ignore it and/or call the show "evil," or take it as "persecution in America." The people who don't believe in Jesus use it as a chance to laugh at those who do, and the people who do believe in Jesus that don't fit the stereotype just get saddened by the state of mainstream Christianity today. XD

All that being said though, I do recommend the first 13 episodes (also the episode guest starring Neil Patrick Harris). XD Those are all really well done (aside from some musical over-production), have great acting, are a lot of fun, and pretty much act like a complete, start-to-finish storyline. XD

mechana2015 (post: 1429499) wrote:I think the real unfortunate part is that they aren't stereotypes by a long shot.

Thiiiiiiiis.

mechana2015 (post: 1429499) wrote:I think the real unfortunate part is that they aren't stereotypes by a long shot.

I think the real problem here is running the risk of the stereotype becoming self-perpetuated. Stereotypes exist for a reason, yes, but repeated adherence to them in mass media only serves to reinforce them as the standard, including how the group being depicted sees themselves.

I didn't see the show, but my mom told me about it over the phone last night...

As I'm reading all your reactions and comments I have to say I do agree, unfortunately with the vast majority of what you guys are saying...

Which is totally sad. As Christians we are supposed to be taking our love for Christ into the world. We are His disciples, and we are the only "Christ" that the world will see.

When we only go at issues that the people around us are facing in such an impersonal way as "I'll pray for you." There is indeed a problem. I think the op mentioned this in their blog, but that's not what Christ did. He healed, he saved, and we are supposed to bring that truth to those around us.

I think it's not even limited to Christians and non-Christians it's also going on very much with Christians and other Christians. I've been dealing a lot with this myself and it's very heartbreaking.

Why have we taken such a passive role? Maybe this is a challenge, to step up? To love each other, to love the world the way that Christ would...

because we totally should be doing this anyway... It is kind of sad that a sitcom/drama has to wake us up.

Fish and Chips (post: 1429504) wrote:I think the real problem here is running the risk of the stereotype becoming self-perpetuated. Stereotypes exist for a reason, yes, but repeated adherence to them in mass media only serves to reinforce them as the standard, including how the group being depicted sees themselves.

There is self perpetuation, but it's not the perpetuation by mass media one would expect.

In a lot of cases the things that have been mentioned (hating gay people, treating people as if they're unimportant, offering prayer rather than real assistance, mistreating kids who have children out of wedlock) are perpetuated from the pulpit, or by leaders and teachers within the church as positive things to do. In most cases the people that believe this wouldn't take the portrayal as negative, but the reactions of dislike to the portrayal as the real negative part if they watched the show at all.

There's a whole sub-culture in the US that lives this 'stereotype' without any perception that it's negatively portrayed or with the thought in mind that any negative portrayal is just 'persecution' and that it, and any other challenge are evidence that they should continue to perpetuate such behavior.

mechana2015 (post: 1429506) wrote:There is self perpetuation, but it's not the perpetuation by mass media one would expect.

In a lot of cases the things that have been mentioned (hating gay people, treating people as if they're unimportant, offering prayer rather than real assistance, mistreating kids who have children out of wedlock) are perpetuated from the pulpit, or by leaders and teachers within the church as positive things to do. In most cases the people that believe this wouldn't take the portrayal as negative, but the reactions of dislike to the portrayal as the real negative part if they watched the show at all.

There's a whole sub-culture in the US that lives this 'stereotype' without any perception that it's negatively portrayed or with the thought in mind that any negative portrayal is just 'persecution' and that it, and any other challenge are evidence that they should continue to perpetuate such behavior.

This...makes me want to go hug something and cry myself to sleep at night...:/

Hating gays, alienating women who have babies out of wedlock, not having an open mind and heart to the needs of others.. These are NOT good qualities that we should have! Why do people see this hatred as okay???

mechana2015 (post: 1429506) wrote:There is self perpetuation, but it's not the perpetuation by mass media one would expect.

In a lot of cases the things that have been mentioned (hating gay people, treating people as if they're unimportant, offering prayer rather than real assistance, mistreating kids who have children out of wedlock) are perpetuated from the pulpit, or by leaders and teachers within the church as positive things to do. In most cases the people that believe this wouldn't take the portrayal as negative, but the reactions of dislike to the portrayal as the real negative part if they watched the show at all.

There's a whole sub-culture in the US that lives this 'stereotype' without any perception that it's negatively portrayed or with the thought in mind that any negative portrayal is just 'persecution' and that it, and any other challenge are evidence that they should continue to perpetuate such behavior.

This is true.

However, it is because media attention almost exclusively recycles this portrayal, that it has become the predominant depiction of Christians in the media. Because of this, non-Christians are inclined to believe this behavior is indicative of all Christians, and Christians who do not carry these bad habits are inclined to be quiet and meek, keeping to themselves, leaving the only Christian influence the now uninterrupted stereotype who, as you mentioned briefly, sees their depiction as positive reinforcement.

Fish and Chips (post: 1429510) wrote:This is true.

However, it is because media attention almost exclusively recycles this portrayal, that it has become the predominant depiction of Christians in the media. Because of this, non-Christians are inclined to believe this behavior is indicative of all Christians, and Christians who do not carry these bad habits are inclined to be quiet and meek, keeping to themselves, leaving the only Christian influence the now uninterrupted stereotype who, as you mentioned briefly, sees their depiction as positive reinforcement.

That is correct. Thanks for stating the accidentally unstated side of what I meant to say so well.

Eighteen replies to my original one, and most of them saying that the church doesn't realistically deal with hurting people well (particularly those who don't believe in God). The irony is, of course, that each of you is the church, and each of you is full of compassion and understanding, seeing the hypocrisy in the church. All across the nation, young people are putting faith into action, understanding that the church in America has far too long been an institution that hasn't done Jesus' work.

Part of my beef is that not one of the glee club members were like you. Not one. Even Mercedes didn't understand what God was all about, and she did the most for Kurt.

I have to agree with everyone here.

The unfortunate truth is that regardless of these ideas being perpetuated by any given media, it's not the media's fault that these portrayals exist. They are based in reality, where the loudest, most active people making a claim to God's name are also very angry, hateful, and fearful.

If we want these portrayals to stop, then we need to pull the plank out of our collective eye. Instead of holding rallies accusing others en mass, why aren't we holding rallies to ask for forgiveness? As individuals, we may not have personally contributed to these problems, but like those that have, we claim to live our lives as Christ would. Shouldn't we be taking responsibility for things done in His name?

TWWK wrote:Part of my beef is that not one of the glee club members were like you. Not one. Even Mercedes didn't understand what God was all about, and she did the most for Kurt.

I don't think that is really the fault of the show's creators. Honestly, writers only have their own experiences to draw from. This means that if no one has ever brought this message to them, then they will have no way to put it into the show. Given that the creator is openly gay, I don't think that this is too far fetched of an idea.

TWWK (post: 1429520) wrote:Eighteen replies to my original one, and most of them saying that the church doesn't realistically deal with hurting people well (particularly those who don't believe in God). The irony is, of course, that each of you is the church, and each of you is full of compassion and understanding, seeing the hypocrisy in the church. All across the nation, young people are putting faith into action, understanding that the church in America has far too long been an institution that hasn't done Jesus' work.

Facts must be faced. There are people out there who do nothing Christianly but still call themselves Christians and they are always a part of some church. Yeah okay, Christians are the church. What are Christians? By definition: someone who follows Christ. How many people are there that say "I am a Christian" but do the opposite of what Christ said to do in Christ's name? A lot. A whole lot.

And there's really nothing you can do about it (unless you wanted to commit mass murder) except try to show people how an actual Christian should be, I suppose.

TWWK (post: 1429520) wrote:
Part of my beef is that not one of the glee club members were like you. Not one. Even Mercedes didn't understand what God was all about, and she did the most for Kurt.

I said this in an outside discussion and I'll reieterate it here.

I suspect that the writers and creator of the show are showing the Christians that they have met. I suspect that the writers and creator of Glee have never met a 'better christian' than the ones they portray on the show.

TWWK (post: 1429520) wrote:Part of my beef is that not one of the glee club members were like you. Not one. Even Mercedes didn't understand what God was all about, and she did the most for Kurt.

This was worded badly, and wasn't the point of my post. I agree with those who said that it wasn't the creator's fault, which I also mentioned in the post. Unfortunately, accurately or not, for better or worse, and representative or not, the creator of the show created what he apparently thought was a true representation of Christianity. And it wasn't all bad - the show could've been (and I expected it to be) far more judgmental.

I think the other sad part is if they introduced a character who acted like a normal human being and was just really nice and supportive of everyone, but had flaws and faults and then said in passing "Yeah I'm a Christian" that certain kinds of Christians would go "He doesn't act like a Christian because he smokes/drinks/swears/hangs out with gays/isn't ever seen praying or reading a Bible or going to church!"

Give a real human character who acts like a sinful human being admitting they're Christian, and they'll get bashed for not acting like one. Give a stereotypical Christian character and they'll get bashed for being a stereotype. It's a lose-lose situation, and at least in the second example of using stereotypes, most of the more prominent Christian representatives in the media will approve of it, even if we don't.

Absolutely awful episode, but I have come to expect it from Glee. The episode was very anti-religion in general. The Finn storyline was "everything is happenstance, prayer doesn't work" disguised as a joke. The Kurt storyline was also very anti-religion. None of the characters ever actually admitted their religion, either.

Combine that with an incredibly predictable storyline, and you've got the worst episode in Glee history.

crazypackersfan (post: 1430287) wrote:Absolutely awful episode, but I have come to expect it from Glee. The episode was very anti-religion in general. The Finn storyline was "everything is happenstance, prayer doesn't work" disguised as a joke. The Kurt storyline was also very anti-religion. None of the characters ever actually admitted their religion, either.

Combine that with an incredibly predictable storyline, and you've got the worst episode in Glee history.

I would be more inclined to agree if the episode hadn't ended the way it did. Finn's storyline ended with a comment akin to, "I believe God speaks in mysterious ways, just not through sandwiches," and Kurt's storyline ended in a positive church experience (and his father woke from his coma). It wasn't "anti-religion" so much as it was "pro-spirituality," and it was a critique on a lot of different things (see my large earlier post). I don't agree with the "pro-vague spirituality" standpoint, but I would hesitate to call the episode "anti-religion," given the way it ended.

Anyways though, yeah, Glee hasn't been a great show since the end of the first half of season one, as I also mentioned earlier. XD

Radical Dreamer (post: 1430294) wrote:I would be more inclined to agree if the episode hadn't ended the way it did. Finn's storyline ended with a comment akin to, "I believe God speaks in mysterious ways, just not through sandwiches," and Kurt's storyline ended in a positive church experience (and his father woke from his coma). It wasn't "anti-religion" so much as it was "pro-spirituality," and it was a critique on a lot of different things (see my large earlier post). I don't agree with the "pro-vague spirituality" standpoint, but I would hesitate to call the episode "anti-religion," given the way it ended.

I was in and out of the room and missed the end to Finn's storyline...dangit, that changes my thoughts about the episode quite a bit. I may have to rewatch the end of it.

I agree with your conclusion about it being "pro-spirituality." In fact, I think the theme was given by, was it Mercedes (?), when she said that you "have to believe in something." I think the creators (i tried) to give what they thought was a good message.

As for Glee getting bad...bah, I thought it was terrible from the beginning. I think the writing is a bit sharper this season, though. I've gone from "would rather eat monkey brains than watch Glee" to "I'll watch it intermittently if my wife really wants me to."

<,<...............>,>

Ok so i like glee, it isn't the deep moving experence of a show as some glee fans probably think it is. But it has its moments the deaf choir in the first half of season One was a huge stand out moment. The christianity episode sounds like it was actually done with some respect and dignity. I can't not fully comment having not seen the episode but the ending points seem rather redeeming, so for a "shut off your brain girly show" as i call it, it seems like some thought actually went into that episode. As stated before I can not fully comment other than comments so if i am wrong let me know XD