CAA: Christian Anime Alliance

Well, seems like somewhat of a vague title, but I'll explain...

I was thinking about this quite a bit earlier. How the world is today, how some people can be close-minded and many people from isolated areas haven't even HEARD of God... Sometimes I wish with those I care most about "if only they knew..." Although the people I know that aren't Christians have interesting points, from their perspective. But to make a huge long thing short, does anyone believe that even after death, God can give people another chance of accepting Him? I know there are songs that I sing in church with lyrics such as "surely the greatest treasure remains for those who gladly chose you NOW", which makes it sounds that some still may have hope. I just... somehow don't believe that a God who is as merciful as He can be like "Oh didn't accept me/believe in my existence, off you go into the abyss" or "Oh no one came to your tribe on a mission to help save you, off you go" etc. Maybe it's just a feeling/hope that even after death, people might get that second chance, when standing face to face in front of Him. Even then, I can see some rebellious people still not accept Him, but I do know that they say "you will be surprised with who you see in heaven". I mean, He knows that they are sooo many of those out there that don't know Him, but at the same time He wishes for them not to perish, if only they knew...

A huge chunk of a paragraph there, sorry, I was just free-writing alot. But what are your opinions on this? I'm hoping this won't be too much of a debate (if it even possibly is).

You're not alone in thinking this. Most Christian thought systems I am familiar with hold that everyone has a chance to accept Christ in this life or the next, and some even go so far as to specify a means for conversion after death. Even those that say that some people genuinely "had no chance" still hold that God works the best for everyone, even if that best is hell.

I am open to the possibility of conversion after death, but I don't think it's absolutely necessary that everyone "have a chance." More importantly, God's grace and mercy should never be seen as an excuse to negate the need for evangelism or the true tragedy of a sin-stricken world.

Tenshi no Ai wrote:I just... somehow don't believe that a God who is as merciful as He can be like "Oh didn't accept me/believe in my existence, off you go into the abyss" or "Oh no one came to your tribe on a mission to help save you, off you go" etc.

I think the problem with that line of thinking is that you want God to conform to YOUR standards of justice and righteousness, and clearly that is a) arrogant, and b) misinformed. God is so far above our senses of right and wrong...even if it seems wrong to us, guess what? You're wrong for thinking it's wrong.

Now, with that said. Does that mean I believe there are no second chances? I personally can't say. After all, God is love and mercy, yes? It's not my place to say that a person in a remote locale who never hears the Gospel is automatically going to Hell. The Bible says nothing on the subject; since the Bible is supposed to be our guide to life, containing God's word, then I must reach one conclusion.

It doesn't matter.

It sounds heartless, a bit like I'm blowing it off, but honestly, we don't know. No one has died and come back to tell the tale, the Bible remains silent on the issue, so obviously it isn't important, or God would have at least mentioned it.

What DO we know, though? The Bible says to proclaim His word to all the nations. It actively encourages missionaries to preach to secluded areas. This alone is enough to make my mind firmly convinced in my belief (which I will not share here for the sake of avoiding hotly contested debate). Still, again, no one can say for sure. Same as with babies/mentally retarded people who die, my belief is this:

I hope that they have a chance to go to Heaven. To my human sense of justice, which is flawed, it does not seem right for them to go to Hell. However, God is pure and holy and just, and if He decrees that they do go to Hell, I can only accept it, as He is God and I am not. If they are to go to Hell, still I will praise God. If they are to go to Heaven, still I will praise God. But until we are in Heaven ourselves, we will never know the answer.

Nice Nate. Way to take a stand. This is a hard issue, and he is right. It isn't spoken of much in the word. Calvinism would say that God never choose these people to be ELECT and therefore they have no need to hear the gospel, because they were never destined for salvation by God. So if you are a Calvanist, there is your answer.

However, I also believe that we have to choose Christ. Accept the gift that is offered to us. God chooses us-we choose God., and somewhere in the middle the TRUTH resides.


Romans 2:14-15 says (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)


This would lead to the conclusion that everyone, saved or not, has a God-given concience that would give them a morality. Which can be perfected if they seek God.

Then you might ask, "Well, what if they never heard of God?"


Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Well, Paul writes that these people have no excuse for not knowing of God...if there is a creation, there must be a creator.


Mat 7:7-8 Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

If they realize there is a God by creation and seek Him, God will find him.

Oh, and one more thing to throw into the pot....
1 Peter 3:18-20

For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

I have my thoughts, but am curious as to what the thread yields.

The Bible says nothing on the subject; since the Bible is supposed to be our guide to life, containing God's word, then I must reach one conclusion.

Actually it DOES. I will need to find the reference but the bible says that because of Creation, that is enough to show that God does exist, so no one is without excuse.

Found it:

Romans 1: 15-23 (mostly verse 20 but this is it's context)

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Call me pessimistic or whatever, but I really think that God wasn't trying to sugar coat this. I coudl be wrong, I am not God, like Nate said.

I think this is why ITS VERY important that we Christians do not sit idely by and wait for the lost to come to us. we need to GET OUT THERE and go to them!

ChristianKitsune wrote:I think this is why ITS VERY important that we Christians do not sit idely by and wait for the lost to come to us. we need to GET OUT THERE and go to them!

Agreed. I think, no matter whether you believe that the unreached go to Heaven or Hell, in either case it does not excuse our duty to do everything in our power to get the Word of God to them.

ChristianKitsune wrote:
I think this is why ITS VERY important that we Christians do not sit idely by and wait for the lost to come to us. we need to GET OUT THERE and go to them!

But it is incredible hard when they do not understand the way we do and it just totally saddens me when it's people so close...

I guess I've just been thinking alot on this, because I've been hanging around with others who see things through a different perspective. I mean, it's nice to try and walk in their shoes, in the sense of how they see and perceive things, especially Christianity. I'm actually finding more and more people who hold more of an interest in Buddhism because of the peacefulness about it, whereas some see the Bible as a violent warzone (mostly throughout the OT of course, but you know). It's as if they are almost... turned off by Christianity well, there's different things they disagree on yeah, but the history behind it too. The whole "wrath of God" seems to turn them off with the heaven/hell/judgment issue. And so for them, stuff like Buddhism seems more... friendly you can say. It's almost as if they think "if God is so loving, why would he go out and CREATE wars" etc etc etc. I know that discussion has been done in CAA before too.

To tie this all in, yeah, I know it was an ignorant comment earlier because we really don't know at all. It is a personal hope, of course. it is EXTREMELY hard for people to accept, yes, but... well, my mind is actually at a blank now :/ I hope you see where I was going with this post though :/

You have to remember, Tenshi that Jesus didn't say that he was A truth or A life. He said "I am THE truth and The Life. NO ONE shall go to the father but though ME." John 14:6

It's a sad thing when people don't want to listen or believe. But God gives them a choice. He isn't doing what he does to be mean or anything. God is like a father, he punishes those he loves. He doesn't want to see any of our friends or loved ones go to Hell. But... neither can he accept them if they don't believe. I think the bible is VERY clear on this point. There is no dispute in my opinion. :/

All you can do is pray for your friends. If it's God's will they will come to Him. Also, tell them that God isn't a tyrant who wants to punish them Share with them John 3:17-18

17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[

Again, these verses are very clear. God is Love, I think everyone needs to know this. But he is also an angry God, a Jealous God. He wants us badly, and he will do anything to get our attention.

I think what's even more saddening to see is people who conform Christianity to meet their own personal desires while claiming to believe in Him. I've met more then a few people who have told me only parts of the Bible are true or because humans might have written certain parts they cannot be fully trusted.

And yes, the Hell situation is one of the hardest. But I see it like this, (and it also mixes in with this discussion) how much does it take for a person to be rejected by God? And is anyone even truly rejected by God?

I personally, (and this is something I believe considering the Bible doesn't go into the depth about it as Nate already mentioned) think God does give people a second chance before entering Heaven. For someone who has given people like Saul, a murderer who believed he was doing good in the light of God, who became one of the greatest prophets in the Bible.

So, if God can do something like this for someone comparable to a lighter version of Hitler, then I can't see why he wouldn't give people who had never heard and never accepted Him during their earthly life. And as Sheol pointed out in 1 Peter 3:18.

And of course, there's one more thing I should point out. If God is ever lasting love and can forgive endlessly, then wouldn't that be a little hypocritical of Him?

Discuss on...

Alexander wrote:So, if God can do something like this for someone comparable to a lighter version of Hitler, then I can't see why he wouldn't give people who had never heard and never accepted Him during their earthly life. And as Sheol pointed out in 1 Peter 3:18.

I'm trying not to get too deep into this, because I know theological debate isn't allowed. However, I think people are missing one important logical flaw in this theory.

Let us assume people who do not hear the Gospel go to Heaven. The problem is, this makes missionaries useless at best and a horrible evil at worst. Hear me out.

If we assume everyone who does not hear the Gospel goes to Heaven, great, wonderful. But now a missionary shows up. The missionary preaches the Gospel to this secluded tribe.

NOW the tribe gets angry. They deny God's gift. UH OH. Now they're going to Hell! By preaching God's Word to them the missionary has "torn up" their automatic ticket to Heaven.

Okay, but now let's say the tribe accepts God's gift. They're going to Heaven! But uh...wait. They were ALREADY going to Heaven. So what did the missionary accomplish? Absolutely nothing.

You see? If we assume those who haven't heard automatically get into Heaven, it makes missionaries useless if the people accept (because they were going anyway), and it makes missionaries evil and something to be avoided at all costs if the people reject (because they WERE going to go to Heaven and the missionary caused them not to).

Again. I don't know what the case is. But looking at it logically, it wouldn't make sense for people to automatically go to Heaven having never heard the Gospel. The sad truth to me is, if a person never hears God's word, ever, sorry, but it's their loss.

That's why to me mission work is INFINITELY important. If these people are indeed doomed, as I believe they are, it makes missionaries of the utmost importance, beyond vital, the most necessary thing in the world. It's why Jesus commanded us to go and spread the news, because a missionary is the only chance these people have.

And of course, there's one more thing I should point out. If God is ever lasting love and can forgive endlessly, then wouldn't that be a little hypocritical of Him?

First of all I would very much advise AGAINST throwing stones at God. He's infinitely powerful, you're not. Even if your human sense of thinking calls it "hypocritical," guess what? You're wrong. Because God can't be wrong, it's impossible.

I think what people love to do is forget that even though God is infinite love and infinite mercy, He is HOLY. He is so holy He cannot stand to LOOK upon sin. Everyone likes to think of God as some big grandpa in the sky who chuckles and says "Oh, you darn kids." NO. God is love, mercy, but He is also wrathful and jealous and has a deep rooted hatred of sin (not sinners, but sin). When Christ became sin incarnate on the cross for us, God could not look upon Him. God could not even look at His own son. If God cannot even stand to see sin, and Christ is the ONLY way to Heaven, and the ONLY way to wash our sins away, then a person who has not accepted Christ, they are stained with sin. You can appeal to "God can forgive endlessly" but He can only do so when a person has been cleansed of their sins by believing in Christ. Because if you want to go down that road, why not embrace Universalism? After all, if God can forgive endlessly why doesn't He just forgive EVERYONE and let 'em all into Heaven?

I've probably crossed a line here. Sorry. I'd like to reiterate that I cannot prove any of this, since I haven't died. And really all we can do is draw our own assumptions from what Scripture has laid out. To me, the interpretation is clear, and sadly people don't get another chance if they haven't heard. That may sound wrong to us, but again, God cannot sin and cannot be wrong by definition, so even if it sounds messed up and unfair, it isn't. Because God knows what He's doing, He created the entire universe, and He calls the shots.

And if by divine providence these people do get a "second chance" after they die, so to speak, then God be praised! It's wonderful! However, if they do not get a second chance and are condemned to Hell, it is very dangerous and unwise to call God "hypocritical" or "cruel."

There's also the doctrine of Divine Mercy which says that God gives every soul a chance to accept Him. But that still depends on the soul, not God. The soul still has to accept God's Grace. Otherwise, no Heaven for you. But then, there's also Purgatory. If you go there, then you're going to go to Heaven, you'll just have to wait until you get finished getting that cleansing you so desperately need. But I don't know how many of the denominations support Purgatory besides the Catholics. So, yeah, I believe in second chances. After all, Peter denied Christ 3 times and repented, going on to lead the Apostles and become the first Pope.

I second that.

Here's what I think (now, it may not be true, but it's just an educated hypothesis): I think that after a person who is ignorant of God dies, He asks them if they will choose Him. If they say yes, then good; although they may need a little bit of cleaning in Purgatory. This is mostly because if you don't know something, you can't possibly be held accountable because it's not your fault. Now, if they say no, then there's only one other place they could go.

But Purgatory is also for those who know God and have died in the state of grace, but still have slight offenses against God that need to be cleansed from their soul.

I don't see God as a "Grandpa" who just chuckles and doesn't care about sin at all. Yes, He does love all of us and wants all of us in Heaven, but we are the ones that make that choice, not God. When we sin, we are the ones turning away from Him, not the other way around, even if it seems like that. He loves us so much and wants us back, but He will smack us upside the head every now and then to get our attention if we stray. After all, isn't that what a Father does? Loves us and corrects us when needed?

Anyways, I hope I wasn't getting debate-y. I was just expressing my views.

EDIT: I don't want to start a debate..

I agree with what Nate says. Wow, such a better explanation of my point. >_>

.

AsianBlossom wrote:Here's what I think (now, it may not be true, but it's just an educated hypothesis): I think that after a person who is ignorant of God dies, He asks them if they will choose Him.

I think the major problem with this theory is that who's going to deny God when they're face to face with Him? It's not like they can look Him in the eye (well, He's so holy they wouldn't be able to look at Him at all, but anyway) and say "I don't believe in you!"

I'm not saying it's entirely impossible. After all, Jesus did say to Thomas, "You have seen and believed]This is mostly because if you don't know something, you can't possibly be held accountable because it's not your fault.[/QUOTE]
"Ignorance is no excuse." :p

Actually one of the Chiefs on my ship experienced this firsthand. Apparently the money in Turkey has the picture of someone really important on it, and it's considered a huge offense to deface it or anything. Well, these guys on his ship were arguing with a shopkeeper, and didn't know about this, and got mad and threw a bill on the ground and stomped on it.

They got arrested on the spot and thrown in prison, even though they had no idea what they did wrong. So yeah, you can't say if you don't know something you can't be held accountable. Remember the verses ChristianKitsune posted earlier. It says right there that God's qualities are plainly visible so men are without excuse.

So I guess, by that logic, yes, if they don't know they can't be held accountable, but since everyone knows according to that verse, there isn't a single person on the planet who doesn't know. :p

Heh, I had much more to add to this topic...but it seems once again I am in full agreement with Nate (you beat me to it!). Anyhow, I do not believe in Purgutory, and I do not believe in a second chance after dying. There is no biblical basis for it, and Nate provides a good argument.

Now as for my verse:
1 Peter 3:18-20

For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

I do not think this holds water for the second chance argument. You must interpret the bible with the bible. By that I mean it has to be able to be backed up or at least not contradicted.

More logical theories for me are:
1) a preincarnate Christ preaching to people before the flood.
2) Noah preaching to the people of the flood in the spirit of Christ,they are metaphorically referred to as in prison.(BTW the ark is a type of Christ)
3) Jesus informing the residents of Hades of his victory on the cross.


I mean why would Jesus just preach to the ones who died before the flood and not the others there?

First off, let me say that I agree with pretty much everything Nate says...which is rare. (Just kidding you, Nate.)

Second, I agree that this thread will probably get locked down if we keep going the way we are. But as long as the party's still in full swing...

AsianBlossom wrote:This is mostly because if you don't know something, you can't possibly be held accountable because it's not your fault.

Several points in response to this...

1. Do people go to hell because they didn't accept Christ as their Lord and Savior, or because they must be punished for the sins they committed? Which kills you, the disease or a lack of a cure? Obviously, the disease does. Sin is the disease, and Christ is the cure. God does not condemn people because they failed to jump through an arbitrary hoop of accepting Christ]sinners[/i], guilty of wicked acts repugnant to His holiness and which He must, by His nature, punish. The only question is whether the punishment will be exacted on the sinners themselves or on Christ as their proxy. Never make the mistake of thinking that accepting Christ made the punishment for your sins somehow magically disappear. Somebody paid the price, it just wasn't you.

2. You may say that sinners are still punished for ignorance if they do not know that their acts are wicked. However, God has endowed each and every human being with an inner sense of God in the form of a sense of right and wrong, a conscience. How can we explain the moral precepts and and prohibitions against certain acts (murder, theft, etc.) common to virtually all peoples and cultures, regardless of their level of advancement or religious beliefs, if not by agreeing that God has given man a moral compass which points to Him, however imperfectly?

3. Even if we admit the possibility that people could be truly entirely ignorant of their own wickedness, as the old saying already quoted by Nate goes, ignorance of the law is no excuse. Right and wrong are not subjective. Certain acts are wrong, because God has declared them to be so, and they do not cease to be wrong or become excusable simply because the person who commits them is unaware of their wrongness. God is the ultimate and final standard and arbiter of good and evil - no human feeling, reasoning, or supply or lack of education can stand up to His judgment.

rocklobster wrote:But I don't know how many of the denominations support Purgatory besides the Catholics.

Not any really. Eastern Orthodox churches and Protestants generally reject the notion of Purgatory. While there are Protestants who believe in Purgatory (C.S. Lewis is a famous example), for the most part it is solely a Catholic thing. At the very least you won't see any Protestant churches supporting it in their doctrine.

EDIT:

More logical theories for me are:
1) a preincarnate Christ preaching to people before the flood.
2) Noah preaching to the people of the flood in the spirit of Christ,they are metaphorically referred to as in prison.(BTW the ark is a type of Christ)
3) Jesus informing the residents of Hades of his victory on the cross.

I'd say since we know Christ is the only way into Heaven, that the faithful who served God in the Old Testament as well as before His sacrifice, were placed in a "holding area" of sorts...not in a place of punishment as for the wicked, but since their sins were not yet forgiven, they were in some sort of limbo-like area where they had to wait until Jesus died on the cross and they could be admitted into Heaven.

That's the best I can come up with, at any rate.

RedMage wrote:1. Do people go to hell because they didn't accept Christ as their Lord and Savior, or because they must be punished for the sins they committed? Which kills you, the disease or a lack of a cure? Obviously, the disease does. Sin is the disease, and Christ is the cure. God does not condemn people because they failed to jump through an arbitrary hoop of accepting Christ]sinners[/i], guilty of wicked acts repugnant to His holiness and which He must, by His nature, punish. The only question is whether the punishment will be exacted on the sinners themselves or on Christ as their proxy. Never make the mistake of thinking that accepting Christ made the punishment for your sins somehow magically disappear. Somebody paid the price, it just wasn't you.

Yeah...this here...

...this is well said, write it down.

Thanks for making my point better then I did.

Nate wrote:I'd say since we know Christ is the only way into Heaven, that the faithful who served God in the Old Testament as well as before His sacrifice, were placed in a "holding area" of sorts...not in a place of punishment as for the wicked, but since their sins were not yet forgiven, they were in some sort of limbo-like area where they had to wait until Jesus died on the cross and they could be admitted into Heaven.

That's the best I can come up with, at any rate.

Yes, it is called SHEOL

I tend to think that the story of Lazarus and the rich man (no not that Lazarus, the other one!) as a good example of this. This story shows two different sides of this holding area.

Nate wrote:I'd say since we know Christ is the only way into Heaven, that the faithful who served God in the Old Testament as well as before His sacrifice, were placed in a "holding area" of sorts...not in a place of punishment as for the wicked, but since their sins were not yet forgiven, they were in some sort of limbo-like area where they had to wait until Jesus died on the cross and they could be admitted into Heaven.

This is an interesting point, which was addressed in the textbook for the theology courses I took. I need to refer to it and refresh my memory and then come back to this...if the thread isn't locked by then.

1. Do people go to hell because they didn't accept Christ as their Lord and Savior, or because they must be punished for the sins they committed? Which kills you, the disease or a lack of a cure? Obviously, the disease does. Sin is the disease, and Christ is the cure. God does not condemn people because they failed to jump through an arbitrary hoop of accepting Christ; He condemns them because they are sinners, guilty of wicked acts repugnant to His holiness and which He must, by His nature, punish. The only question is whether the punishment will be exacted on the sinners themselves or on Christ as their proxy. Never make the mistake of thinking that accepting Christ made the punishment for your sins somehow magically disappear. Somebody paid the price, it just wasn't you.

Oh yeah, part of this is definately going in my sig. Well said.

I agree with that!

Phew, lot's of great points made. And I have to agree with Nate on a lot of the answers he brought up too. (Does everyone agree with him when he does this? XD)

Also, I'm not trying to argue. Just asking honest questions to better help me with understanding this question.

The subject of everyone having a conscience is definitely a very strong point I forget to add. But it also raises another question for me: People have a conscience to tell from good and bad, and people do have the nature to seek answerers leading to Christ, so why are missionaries necessary? If people already have even just a small concept of God's existence inside their own hearts, why would they need to be told what they already know?

But then again, people can be ignorant and unwilling to accept Him, so thusly, I can see why missionaries would be needed: To remind them. Even the holiest of Christians need to be reminded almost every day that they were made to serve the Lord.

Also, I wasn't saying that everyone can automatically get into Heaven, but that if, and again; this is from something I can't give a definite answer for, they never are able to know Christ, then they can have one last chance before entering either Heaven or Hell to know Him.

This is definitely a puzzling mystery that doesn't have a definite answer though...

I honestly don't understand what is so hard about this..O.o The Bible is VERY clear.

Romans 6:23
23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord.

Like RedMage said. It's the disease that dooms our souls, not the cure. We have a choice, to accept the cure, or not to accept it. We can accept Christ, or we can say 'no.'

We are given all the chances we need in our human lives. I do not believe, nor do I see any evidence in The Bible, the only book I really trust, about God giving us a second chance. It doesn't make sense to me?

Why?

Because this goes back to the very beginning, with Adam and Eve. When they sinned, that meant that all man kind sinned. We were born with sin, whether we knew it or not. Sin=punishment=Death UNLESS we accept Christ here.

When we die we will face judgment, if we don't know Christ by then, we will be turned away. It's very simple. It's not some Mystery.

God isn't a god of Confusion. His answers are directly in the Bible. I cited a few verses that back up that no one has an excuse. Go see them for yourself, I am not making this stuff up xD.

To answer your question Alexander, here is my take:
Just because we have an inkling of someone Greater someone bigger than us. Doesn't mean they will necassarily find the right answer. They can guess, and try to make up their own truth. Heh, look at all the world releigions out there and you will see what I mean.

So it's up to us, as missionaries and ambassadors to God to go out there and tell them the Truth.

you may ask, "Why doesn't God do it?" Well, why did Jesus come to earth as a human? It's less scary! I think God would rather the people believe by us telling them, then him having to appear before the entire world and giving 75 percent of them heart attacks. Shoot, I would probably have a heart attack if he suddenly appeared. O_O;

Alexander wrote:People have a conscience to tell from good and bad, and people do have the nature to seek answerers leading to Christ, so why are missionaries necessary? If people already have even just a small concept of God's existence inside their own hearts, why would they need to be told what they already know?

Because sin perverts and screws up that "moral compass." While everyone knows that murder is wrong, they may not believe it is wrong in all circumstances. For example, it's not okay to murder your mother and wife, but it's okay to murder that guy from the neighboring tribe.

And the question was answered in the verse ChristianKitsune posted way back on page one. Men see God in all He has made, but their wickedness causes them to turn away from Him, to build graven images and deny Him.

You've got to remember that morality is not exclusive to Christianity. Almost every religion agrees that there is right and wrong, just to what degree. While Christianity contains morals, morality ≠ Christianity.

[quote="Nate"]

You've got to remember that morality is not exclusive to Christianity. Almost every religion agrees that there is right and wrong, just to what degree. While Christianity contains morals, morality ≠]

So many beliefs and teachings go onto say how all religions have a universal morality. The same basic ideas apply to everyone, aka "don't harm others" "be nice to one another" but it's amazing that through all that, I still see hate and anger within people. Too bad with Christianity there are some rules that many just... don't like. A few sometimes I'm not entirely certain why they are, and of course like most people, I can be bad about them and rebel somewhat too, or justify things in a way that sounds alright etc etc.

...bit off topic there in a sense, but just adding a bit more.

Here's an important one to remember:

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment...

It's simply a matter of trusting God. There's not going to be one person misplaced in their eternal destination. Each person who is in heaven will be, without argument, belonging in heaven while each person in hell will be deserving of their punishment in hell. We don't have to worry about the tribesman across the ocean who dies without hearing the gospel. He's in the place that's perfectly suited for him, because God sent him there.

We should be more concerned with the people who are alive that haven't heard the gospel, yeah?

Syreth wrote:We should be more concerned with the people who are alive that haven't heard the gospel, yeah?

I wholeheartedly agree.

Yeah, we should.

I was going to add a passage that I had heard in one of the two books of Maccabees, which says that "it is holy and wholesome to pray for the dead", and one of the spiritual works of mercy is to pray for the living, as well as the dead, but I realize that the Protestant Bible doesn't include that book, and the spiritual works of mercy are probably a Catholic teaching only.

And I know my sins aren't just magically washed away forever and I can do whatever I want; that's why I go to confession! To be forgiven of sins I've had the misfortune to commit.

But I'm just trying to clear up what I'm saying, because it seems like I'm being hammered by those who don't believe what I believe.