The Shocking Youth Message

[Lengai]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cncEhCvrVgQ

Wow. This is jarring.

A radical message, a true message. It's terrifying and unbelievably sad, and it will hit parts of you, if will make you think of your friends and your family and yourself and it's not a comfortable ride. But I think everyone needs to hear it.

My roommate sent this to me, and it's worth the hour to listen to.

[ShiroiHikari]

I guess this wasn't all that jarring to me, but then again I'm not a "youth" anymore.

[mechana2015]

I've been trying to watch this to comment but it won't load right... I'm interested in what he has to say that was billed as so shocking.

[Whitefang]

I've heard this before, it's a great sermon.

Yup, I'm a big fan of Paul Washer in general. He makes you think!

[uc pseudonym]

I was disappointed by this sermon. He starts off by talking about how offensive his message is going to be and how astray American Christianity is, then he proceeds to outline American Christianity.

Don't watch bad shows or dress immodestly? That's supposed to be a new message? I'll bet a lot of members of the audience were convicted about their dabbling in rock and roll or playing cards. There are dozens of sermons calling people to be different from the world and this one simply coaches that message in angrier language.

It was very telling when the audience cheered and he said, "I don't know why you're clapping, because I'm talking about you." They were cheering because he wasn't telling them anything new, he was repeating the same "be separate from the world" message that most churches preach constantly.

I could take this more seriously if he challenged his audience on issues like materialism and pride, or condemned the wedding of church and politics, or called on them to feed the hungry and clothe the naked. But this was just the mainstream evangelical gospel.

To his credit, he didn't end things with yet another altar call. I have no doubt he is completely sincere and I don't mean to suggest he isn't right about how shallow much of modern Christianity is. But I think that his sermon probably had a similar effect to all of those spiritual highs that he condemns.

[ShiroiHikari]

UC, thanks for saying what I was thinking.

[Lengai]

I dunno. I felt that the message was more geared towards the realization that not all people who call themselves Christians are saved. People who "gave their lives to Christ" when they were kids might not have, really. Knowing people by their fruits, and all that. People who were never true Christians in the first place, but think themselves to be just because they "accepted Jesus". It talks on, "you know Jesus", but the question is, "does Jesus know you?" kind of thing. The whole, not all who say to me, "Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of heaven", and "Away from me, for I never knew you" stuff.

I felt that that was more the focus than a "don't do this" message. I really liked it when he mentioned that God's Spirit in us wouldn't let us do those things. I know some people have different convictions about things, but there are just some that, when I person is walking with God, could not bring themselves to do without feeling ill about it.

I was discussing it with one of my friends, who said,
"I think many Christians today haven't sincerely accepted and claimed it for themselves in the first place, and if they had at one stage, they haven't maintained it. When they truly have, their lives will reflect the difference in that it will be shown by what they do; that is, in how they live their lives. (James 2:14-26)"

And he said, "The real question then is this... Why are you a Christian?"

To me, it was more about the falsehood of much of America's evangelism in that people who think themselves saved really aren't because they haven't really followed God's call at all.

[ich1990]

I watched the whole thing, although he gets fairly repetitious after the first twenty minutes.

I think his diagnosis is fairly accurate. The American Church has a severe case of cultural Christianity and there is a human tendency towards "cheap grace" (as Bonhoeffer put it). I thought his solution, however, was weak. It would be nice to hear someone preach a few "do's" instead of sticking to the traditional Baptist "dont's".

I wonder what would be better evidence of our faith in God: avoiding secular music or spending an evening working at a soup kitchen?

[LadyRushia]

Yeah, I watched the whole thing and I felt like his message wasn't anything new or shocking. To some people it is, no doubt.

[Cognitive Gear]

Everything that UC said. He hit the nail on the head.

I tend to feel that most sermons of this nature would be better off focusing on what Christ told us to do rather than what we are "not" to do, as the latter is often confused, and the former usually leads to the natural fulfillment of the latter anyways.

[chibiphonebooth]

I was disappointed by this sermon. He starts off by talking about how offensive his message is going to be and how astray American Christianity is, then he proceeds to outline American Christianity.

Don't watch bad shows or dress immodestly? That's supposed to be a new message? I'll bet a lot of members of the audience were convicted about their dabbling in rock and roll or playing cards. There are dozens of sermons calling people to be different from the world and this one simply coaches that message in angrier language.

It was very telling when the audience cheered and he said, "I don't know why you're clapping, because I'm talking about you." They were cheering because he wasn't telling them anything new, he was repeating the same "be separate from the world" message that most churches preach constantly.

I could take this more seriously if he challenged his audience on issues like materialism and pride, or condemned the wedding of church and politics, or called on them to feed the hungry and clothe the naked. But this was just the mainstream evangelical gospel.

To his credit, he didn't end things with yet another altar call. I have no doubt he is completely sincere and I don't mean to suggest he isn't right about how shallow much of modern Christianity is. But I think that his sermon probably had a similar effect to all of those spiritual highs that he condemns.

i agree with all of this. it would be a shocking message if he challenged everyone there to go out and sleep in the streets for a day or take care of the homeless. not just to send them clothes from their comfortable house so they feel like they 'did something good today.' no, but to actually challenge them to go and see what it is like. to talk with the people and experience what they experience.

it would be a shocking message for people if he told them to go home and evaluate the things they have and sell the things they don't need. like... actually do it.

it would be a shocking message if he told them to love everyone, even the man who sued them or the woman who cut that person off or even the person who killed your wife or whatever.

etc.

some of this that i really don't like, for example, how he talks about how G-d isn't showing up in churches cause you watched a tv show He didn't like. Yes, maybe G-d doesn't like it, but that doesn't mean he still doesn't LOVE you. G-d always loves.

(sorry if this is all over the place. i'm tired and multitasking)

[Lengai]

I don't think he was saying that it makes God not love you. I interpreted it as God being more distant from us when we fill out mind with junk like that, not a matter of "I don't love you right now because you watched that". I thought it was more of speaking on how watching and reading junk will put up a barrier between us and God. You'll think about it rather than Him. Our lack of focus then causes us to miss God's work.

I know that this message isn't perfect, but I think I'm looking at it in a different light than most of you. ._.

[mechana2015]

I thought it was more of speaking on how watching and reading junk will put up a barrier between us and God. You'll think about it rather than Him. Our lack of focus then causes us to miss God's work.

Thats hardly shocking though... I would think it would be pretty well known. Maybe we're just not in the demographic here. Maybe the issue is with the title and the presumption that the message is so astounding?

[Lengai]

But that in itself wasn't the message as a whole. I'm barely in the demographic - I'm about to be college age, not youth. But that doesn't change how utterly sad it is that thousand upon thousand of people who think that they're saved aren't. Because they didn't really make any commitment to God. They claim to know Him, but He doesn't know them.

I've heard a message with similar elements at Disciple Now three years ago, by Adrian Despres. "The Four Chairs". There wasn't a dry eye in the room, several of my friends made genuine commitments to Christ that night, because they had always just been following their parents or just doing it to escape Hell. During the end worship, I couldn't sing because my throat was so raw from it. But I didn't stop, I kept trying to sing, even when nothing came out.

To me, this message is about that. The black death of the Bible Belt, it has been called. People who think they're going to heaven when they're not. My second post here explained how I felt about it, though no one seems to have paid it any mind. It's not something I didn't know already, it's just incredibly sad, and the first time I'd heard this particular sermon.

[ShiroiHikari]

I do think it's sad that so many people are deceived, but I'm still failing to make the connection between that and being "of the world". We aren't going to save anybody by refusing to "conform" to the world. What's more important is loving others and serving God. The individual Christian cannot save everyone-- actually, we can't save anyone by our own power. All we can do is preach the Gospel, and pray, and lead by example.

[Nate]

The black death of the Bible Belt, it has been called.

That seems like kind of a weird thing to call it. This isn't a new problem, it isn't anything that suddenly started happening this century. Paul wrote many, many letters in the New Testament about just this, people who were too concerned with the Law, people who weren't acting how they should, people who were too concerned with who they were baptized by...

"I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth."

Okay, that one's from Revelation, and by John. And while I don't like Revelation in the first place, it's a good passage. There have been "lukewarm" Christians since Christianity was invented. There have been Pharisees since before Christianity was invented.

Which isn't to belittle the problem. It is a very serious problem, there is no doubt. But to blame it on music, or TV shows, or video games? Then what was the cause of the problem in the first century when none of these things were even a glint in someone's imagination?

The problem is deeper than what we wear, what we watch, what we listen to. Those things are important to worry about, it's true. But doing those things doesn't condemn us, and shouldn't the world not even really be aware of us doing a lot of the things that do make us Christians? By that I mean, the Bible says to give in secret, so that even your left hand doesn't know what your right is doing...so announcing loudly to everyone "HEY GUYS I'M GIVING LOTS OF MONEY TO THE POOR AND VOLUNTEERING AT A BUNCH OF SHELTERS" seems to be the wrong way to proclaim your Christianity.

Some people even make a big deal about saying grace over all their meals where everyone can see them, but even Jesus said, "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men." So purposely making a big deal about saying grace, also seems to be the wrong way to proclaim Christianity.

*shrug* Maybe I'm just rambling now. I dunno...I didn't want to turn this into a "Let's bash this dudes' sermon!" because I mean his message is good, and I'm sure he's big into it...I dunno. Maybe I shouldn't have posted. -.-

[animechica]

Which isn't to belittle the problem. It is a very serious problem, there is no doubt. But to blame it on music, or TV shows, or video games? Then what was the cause of the problem in the first century when none of these things were even a glint in someone's imagination?

The problem is deeper than what we wear, what we watch, what we listen to. Those things are important to worry about, it's true. But doing those things doesn't condemn us, and shouldn't the world not even really be aware of us doing a lot of the things that do make us Christians? By that I mean, the Bible says to give in secret, so that even your left hand doesn't know what your right is doing...so announcing loudly to everyone "HEY GUYS I'M GIVING LOTS OF MONEY TO THE POOR AND VOLUNTEERING AT A BUNCH OF SHELTERS" seems to be the wrong way to proclaim your Christianity.

Some people even make a big deal about saying grace over all their meals where everyone can see them, but even Jesus said, "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men." So purposely making a big deal about saying grace, also seems to be the wrong way to proclaim Christianity.

Wow, you have a point.
It gets to me when older Christians look at us "youth" and all they can see is that we're tech-savvy and not as spiritually mature as they are, so there seems to be a distrust of anything with speakers or a screen. One older lady in my church even sent a COUPLE home in tears because they had just got this new synthesizer (they lead the music department) and were going to bring it into the sanctuary and she informed them that it was the devil's music and that kind of thing. Well, we eventually got it, and we use it frequently now, but every time we do you can see her closing her eyes and refusing to sing along with the praise songs. It's not even crazy synth, they do like synth piano, violins, and not very much else.

And I'm so glad someone else thinks it's weird about the making a big deal of praying over your food thing. My cousins and family and everything are Baptist (I hesitate to label myself.. I'm just "Christian" lol) and my uncle is a very loud and sociable type of person. I heard a story about how he made a waitress pray with them for their food or something like that... I had a teacher who proudly told us a story about how he and his family stood around a table in a restaurant and prayed for their food out loud.

If I wasn't a Christian, that would probably come off to me as a very holier-than-thou way to behave in public, and yet many older people in church seem to act like it's an awesome thing when people "stand up" for their faith even though nobody was persecuting them in the first place. Growing up, we church kids were encouraged to correct our peers when they said "Oh my God" or "God, I hate this" or other variations of that kind of speech. While it's certainly very flippant and I don't personally use the word "God" in that fashion, I know of Christians who do and have no problem with it, and of course it's just a common way of speaking for unsaved people. But you can imagine how those unsaved people felt when the Christian kids tried to police them for their "bad language"... Worst of all, that was supposed to make them more interested in Christianity. Mostly all it did was if they were polite, they would refrain from saying it in your general area and apologize to you when they did, but it's not like they ever understood *why*, which is the important thing. If they WEREN'T so nice, they would spam your ears with the very phrase you asked them not to say, and that was awful. But in both cases, it didn't really help, and only served to annoy people. Sadly, we kept getting told that it was the "right" thing to do...

Anyway, to bring this back to the topic, the video looks interesting.
I must watch it when I get a chance. ^w^

[Maokun]

Being indoctrined under this kind of tenets during my youth and having grown up and became more objective I have to say that this way of thinking is well intentioned but faulty. Why well intentioned? Because it is very true that many people live in a state of false spirituality, believing to be actually born again, but all the while not exhibiting the true traits and deeds of one with faith, i.e. proving not to really have faith to begin with.

Why faulty? Because this "world" waryness that is so strongly preached to the youth is actually a poor replacement for true spirituality. Shedding the triffling familiarities with the world (music, games, clothes, etc.) becomes then a replacement for the true deeds faith and grace should work in a believer. Under that doctrine I grew vain and shallow believing myself to be such a great christian because I only heard gospel, not my "lukewarm" brother and sisters dwelling in their clearly hell-bound rock and pop music. Purity and sincerity was easily measured in the girls by the length of their skirts and in the boys by the shortness of their hair. Looking back, I can see how much harmful pride and hate I was allowing in my heart. How much I was making of myself a saint by following comparatively easy rules as opposed as experiencing the true humility that comes from knwoing that all your good deeds are nothing before the Lord.

This doctrine teaches young people to stay away from the world (the very place that need them so much!) and rewards them with fake feelings of sanctity and correctness. It took me to move away to a foreign country, far away of the influence of my circle of friend, family and church to learn that the world, is not only a cesspool of evil bent in tearing you apart from your faith, as I believed. It is also a place filled with people in need. People who does not know or have a wrong idea (that we ourselves have produced) about what christianity is.


Back when I was under the "separatist" doctrine, I was taught how evil the unconvert were despite how good they believe themselves to be. Now I'm learning to see how good they can be and how much God loves them and wishes them to be saved despite how corrupt and evil I was taught to believe them to be. I've found amongst drugadicts, heavy drinkers, promiscuous people and gays (without becoming myself one of them) as well as in the normal, well-behaved people of other beliefs or practices much more compassion, honesty and gratitude that in many of the self proclamed belivers I used to asociate with and believe myself righteous for doing so. By respectfully arguing with atheists and holders of other kinds of opposite beliefs, I was challenged in my own beliefs. I discovered how many of them were based simply on having being taught them when I was a kid or because I knew not better. It made me reevaluate the the reasons I believed (and yes, if I indeedly should keep believing, which I guess is the big fear of the christian communities), and that made me stronger in my faith. Now I know why I believe. I can understand why other people might find outrageous that I believe and I can clearly show them logical and personal reasons for my beliefs and more importantly I can fight the underlying belief that is so strong nowadays among unconverse: that believers are pathetically misguided and ignorant sheeple that employ religion as a way of making themselves feel righteous and holy.

Jesus prayed not that we were taken away from the world but that we were kept safe from the evil (that we will unavoidably find while we stay in the world). However churches usually believe that to be kept safe from evil we need to be separate from the world. As other posters have already say, worry not for sharing irrelevant tastes and accesories with the world. Better try to be true in your faith, which again, is not measured by how differently you seem to be compared to the world, but rather by the deeds born of that faith that have the power to change that world.

[Jaltus-bot]

Great post, Maokun.

[ShiroiHikari]

Yes Maokun, thanks for that, and I agree completely.

[Adorima]

Hmm...I dunno about that preacher's sermon. He's right about certain things like you guys said like," If you accept Jesus by faith then you'll be known as a Christian by your works possible through that faith." I think you guys are already aware of this (unlike many people I encounter) but Catholics (me included) don't believe any differently. Though there this discrepancy between Catholicism and (some) protestantism: as the preacher has stated, you're not really saved if your works don't show it. Catholic's also believe you can loose salvation. But you can always repent. And so we have the Sacrament of Reconciliation, a sacrament not of enabling and presumption, but of grace and mercy with which we return, through sincere humility and a desire to change, in communion with God with the entire Church (because when we sin it means we have harmed(venial) or even severed (mortal) our relationship with God)

But he puts an emphasis on certain things that shouldn't be the primary reason we come to Jesus. Like for example he says "Can you enjoy the same things that the world relishes?! Can you enjoy sin?!" or something to that effect. Of course you can't and yes, it's true that we shouldn't judge activities right or wrong based upon the consensus opinion of our society or culture, we should judge it by the truth handed down from Jesus Christ, but just because it's secular doesn't mean it's intrinsically evil. Though it begs to be said that secular things can either be right OR wrong, and usually they have a tendency to err in or bend the truth. He focuses on this very much...instead of focusing on what you should know/do/believe in to combat or deflect these lies.

I can't really say for sure because I'm not a mind reader but he seems like he's trying to guilt people into becoming holy. Not the way to bring people to Jesus, I'm afraid. I used to go to Church because I was afraid of going to hell, not because I really had a loving relationship with Jesus. I had numerous misconceptions back then about the nature of God (I think this guy just rubs those misconceptions in with his demeanor)...but now I go because I want to grow in my relationship with him.