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Do you prefer hymns or contemporary music in a worship service? No bashing the people who think otherwise! And what is your favorite song, the one you always perk up for when you see they're going to sing it that morning?

As for me, I prefer hymns. It's all fine and well to sing "Yes Lord, yes Lord," but I just love all the theology and substance jam-packed into those old hymns. And the rhymes are often more complex as well, or just rhyme words we don't normally think of. (What about "But still our ancient foe/ Doth seek to work us woe"?)

I have tons of favorite hymns, but I think possibly my favorite of all is Great Is Thy Faithfulness. I can get so choked up over the words of this song that I can't even sing anymore, and the tune is every bit as sweet as the words. I often think of this hymn when I'm worried or feeling down.

Great is Thy faithfulness, O God my Father.
There is no shadow of turning with Thee.
Thou changest not; Thy compassions, they fail not.
As Thou hast been, Thou forever wilt be.

Great is Thy faithfulness.
Great is Thy faithfulness.
Morning by morning, new mercies I see.
All I have needed Thy hand hath provided.
Great is Thy faithfulness, Lord, unto me.

Summer and winter, and springtime and harvest,
Sun moon and stars in their courses above,
Join with all nature in manifold witness
To Thy great faithfulness, mercy, and love.

Pardon for sin and a peace that endureth,
Thine own dear presence to cheer and to guide.
Strength for today and bright hope for tomorrow,
Blessings all mine with ten thousand beside.

Hymns are poetically awesome. I'd rather sing modern versions of hymns than a good amount of CCM music out there.

I like the words in old hymns a lot, and I like when they're sung in my church services; however, I much prefer the contemporary stuff 90% of the time. Songs like Revelation Song and others like it are, I think, just as powerful as some of the old hymns.

I grew up on *very* old timey hymns. Anything I compose, however, is going to be a chorus. I think both are useful and server very different purposes. The hymns are great when you want to reflect on the various aspects of God's character. I think choruses are great when you want to "feel" various aspects of God's character.

At least that's my thinking.

I prefer hymns for the reasons already stated -- most of the hymns that have survived the test of time are substantive, meaningful, and leave you contemplating their deeper meaning.

Admittedly, we've had a lot of hymns written over the centuries, and thank heavens the vast majority of them have disappeared -- many of them were just plain bad. The cream has risen to the top.

While I do like some contemporary music as part of a worship service, I find most of the songs repetitive and shallow. This suits the M.O. of many modern church services -- where inspiring a mood is more important than delivering a message -- a trend that is being decried by an increasing chorus of concerned onlookers, evangelical and otherwise. Still, in their proper context, some contemporary songs can be as powerful and relevant as anything penned in the past.

I hope the evolution of the music continues -- where we discard the dross majority in favor of the few real quality works -- and they join the list of songs, hymns, and spiritual songs that form a core of conscious worship focusing on God's eternal reality rather than our transient feelings.

Ah, now here's a topic I can sink my teeth into.

Lately, when I go to church, I purposely show up late to avoid the worship music portion of our service. The reason why is that our church has gone nuts using CCM music...which I hate. We hardly ever sing hymns anymore, and that makes me sad.

I vastly prefer hymns to CCM, for a variety of reasons. First, I just like the way the music is composed better. CCM sounds okay, for what it's worth, when an actual band plays it and sings it. For example, I'm listening to "Revelation Song" that Corrie linked and it's pretty okay. Not exactly my style of music, but I can listen to it.

However, this changes when put in the hands of a worship team at a church who may be moderately talented, but our church uses an acoustic guitar, drums, a saxophone, and a keyboard, and sometimes a violin. Combine that with the average singing ability of 90% of the population, and a song like that becomes kind of hard to listen to.

Second, most old hymns are very theologically complex, and offer a lot to think about occasionally. I remember going to Passion a few years back, which is all about CCM, and there was one portion where we sang "You are holy" probably about 30 times. I was so BORED. I was like "Yes okay I get it God is holy can we stop this repetitiveness and get to something interesting?"

Kind of like this: http://download.lardlad.com/sounds/season5/famous10.mp3

I find that CCM is more about repeating the words "holy," "worthy," and "awesome" over and over again, compared to hymns like "Be Thou My Vision" (which I really like). More than that, I also quite dislike the standard practice of CCM songs being closed the same way. You have to sing the chorus twice at the end of the song. Then you have to sing the final line again after the second singing of the chorus. Then you have to sing the final line yet again, only slower this time. Meh.

I do like some CCM, very little, but I do like some. I honestly think a good worship service should have a little of both, so everyone can get into it. I don't think you should have too much of one or the other in a service because it then becomes exclusionary (like I said, I don't bother to go to my worship service anymore, because I don't care for the music...I just like the sermons).

Finally, my favorite hymn is and always shall be "Come Thy Fount of Every Blessing," with the aforementioned "Be Thou My Vision" coming in second.

Nate (post: 1355802) wrote:However, this changes when put in the hands of a worship team at a church who may be moderately talented, but our church uses an acoustic guitar, drums, a saxophone, and a keyboard, and sometimes a violin. Combine that with the average singing ability of 90% of the population, and a song like that becomes kind of hard to listen to.

Yeah, the thing about my church is that it has a really talented worship team, but the OTHER thing about my church is that it has a really talented worship team that gives glory to God and not themselves. At the church I used to attend, this was a huge problem for me]Second, most old hymns are very theologically complex, and offer a lot to think about occasionally. I remember going to Passion a few years back, which is all about CCM, and there was one portion where we sang "You are holy" probably about 30 times. I was so BORED. I was like "Yes okay I get it God is holy can we stop this repetitiveness and get to something interesting?"[/QUOTE]

This is kind of interesting. On the one hand, yeah, singing the same line over and over can get kind of boring, but on the other hand, in the Hebrew language, repetition is a method of emphasis. It's why Jesus is often quoted as saying "Verily, verily I say unto you," (or "truly, truly," depending on which version you're reading); the emphasis is in the repetition. If I'm not mistaken, most words are only repeated twice, but when it comes to the subject of God's holiness, the word "holy" is repeated three times, which is a lot of emphasis. XD I always thought that was really cool, so whenever songs get repetitive, especially concerning the holiness of God, that's where my mind goes. XD

Of course, this isn't really to say that contemporary worship songs are better than hymns, or that hymns are better than contemporary worship songs. Some hymns are really great and some contemporary worship songs are really great. CCM as heard on the radio kind of makes me sick 85% of the time, but I think there are still a few good artists out there who can make really good worship music that fits today's culture.

This is actually a difficult topic for me, since I'm really not that fond of religious music. Hymns have always felt a little slow and dusty and uncomfortable to me, whereas most Christian contemporary style feels a little too over the top and high energy. I have absolutely nothing against people who enjoy either brand of music, but for my part I just can't get into either of them. It comes off as a lot of noise to me.

And before this gets posted, no, I have not heard every single hymn or newest contemporary Christian band on the charts, and I appreciate your not thoroughly linking them to me.

I was actually interested to read somewhere that C.S. Lewis shared my opinion, and would attend hymn-less services, though I only ever read that in one particular book, so perhaps it's apocryphal.

To be quite honest, I'm not a fan of modern"worship services" (or whatever your church calls it).

There are a variety of reasons for this, but the main ones are:

1. Most of the lyrical content is insubstantial at best, and offensive at worst. When it's insubstantial, it is repeating "worthy" "holy" or "awesome". When it's offensive, it's only a few word alterations (if that) from being a pop-song about having intercourse with a man.

2. Most of the time, I can't help but feel that we are not offering our best to God. I understand why we don't have the most complex music, but I generally feel that perhaps we should offer something up to God that is made up of more than three chords.

3. Why on earth are we singing songs like "Our God is an awesome God" when we have access to contemporary songs that are far and away better? (Unless your church is called "Awesome God Church", of course.)

4. Music isn't, and shouldn't be, the only way to praise God. I really wish that more churches would reflect this.

EDIT: Just because there is a repeated phrase doesn't mean that it is insubstantial. There are plenty of good reasons to repeat a phrase in a song, but I have not yet seen it done in a modern worship context. (With the exception of bands whose music is sadly NOT used for worship services. Like mewithoutYou)

ClosetOtaku (post: 1355791) wrote:While I do like some contemporary music as part of a worship service, I find most of the songs repetitive and shallow. This suits the M.O. of many modern church services -- where inspiring a mood is more important than delivering a message -- a trend that is being decried by an increasing chorus of concerned onlookers, evangelical and otherwise. Still, in their proper context, some contemporary songs can be as powerful and relevant as anything penned in the past.

This is pretty much exactly what I was going to say. I won't get into it too deeply here, but I think the modern emphasis on "feeling" God and having a "spiritual experience" is far too great.

I hope this post doesn't come across as argumentative. I'm writing it because things so far are turning out pretty much the way I've seen this discussion go in the past (that is, everyone agreeing with one another) and I want to try to offer food for thought. So let me bring up two things:

- Hymns can be intimidating to people without musical training. My church has been involved with a homeless shelter and low-income housing for a while, but none of the residents came until we offered a "contemporary service" and many of them explicitly said that this was because of the music.

- A friend of mine at times does music for both services. He's very much a musical person, so I was surprised when he said that he thinks the purpose of music in worship is almost always to create a specific emotional state, and that most people who criticize one form do so simply because they don't respond emotionally to it, even though they are more likely to say that it is because of the lyrics. I'm not accusing anyone here of that, but I can think of people that I would.

If this comes off as anti-hymns, it's only because this thread is leaning in the opposite direction. I can cheerfully say that I dislike music in general and so I'm relatively neutral on this subject.

To quote Larry Norman,

"I'm not knockin' the hymns, just gimme somethin' that has a beat."

I'll just take whatever songs are genuinely good, new or old. Lets face it, there are enough lousy hymns AND lousy praise & worship choruses that I couldn't really endorse either blindly.

Radical Dreamer wrote:That's where I think the rubber really meets the road when it comes to any worship service--is it about God, or is it about you?

I think you misunderstood my point. XD

Let me expound a bit.

However, this changes when put in the hands of a worship team at a church who may be moderately talented, but our church uses an acoustic guitar, drums, a saxophone, and a keyboard, and sometimes a violin. Combine that with the average singing ability of 90% of the population, and a song like that becomes kind of hard to listen to, because none of us are professional musicians.

It's like the disabled kid who plays baseball and you really feel for him because he's got a lot of heart and he's so determined! But the Yankees aren't going to be contracting with him any time soon.

That explain it better? XD]but on the other hand, in the Hebrew language, repetition is a method of emphasis.[/QUOTE]
In German, the word "gift" means "poison" but I wouldn't give someone rat poison and say "Here's a gift for you!" :p

Also 3 is not 30. Thirty is like, at LEAST nine or ten times more than three.

uc wrote:most people who criticize one form do so simply because they don't respond emotionally to it, even though they are more likely to say that it is because of the lyrics

Hmm. Your friend may be on to something there. I'm willing to admit that maybe I just don't like the music and therefore downplay the lyrics. Still, it's pretty hard to say "Maybe the lyrics are good but I just don't respond emotionally" when the lyrics are just "You are holy" repeated for two minutes straight.

Could also be why older people are prejudiced against songs like, say, Kansas' "Carry On My Wayward Son" which has amazing lyrics but it's just noisy rock music to them.

To be honest, I'm a lot more annoyed by lazy worship sets more than any particular style. Basically, this is when, for weeks, you begin to notice that the songs that are rotated in and out of sets has been pretty much the same for the past few months. Sure, there may be an addition or two, but these will likely be very stylistically similar to what's already been rotating in the sets. Since I tend to handle A/V stuff for my church, I make song slides each week, so this becomes really apparent to me.

I'm sure that part of it is the fact that you don't want to be inundating the congregation with new songs every week and that it's hard to learn a new song every week. I suspect that the bigger, underlying reason is that worship leaders just really like those songs and songwriters. There's no other reason for seeing entire sets dominated by a single songwriter with a song or two peppered in between that isn't, but still manages to show up a good number of weeks.

I'm also not a fan of the notion that hymns simply are better constructed than anything we could ever hope to write today. That it's become near-tautological is annoying to me, mostly because I feel like we ignore the few instances where lyrics aren't vapid (and given the sea of stuff that's out there, I think it's statisically impossible that you can't find one song with good lyrics) and we discourage ourselves from trying to come up with songs in our style with lyrics that aren't terrible.

I really like both to be honest. I think it depends on what the words are.

Neither. Or, sometimes, both at the same time.

Seriously, though, we spend our time about 50/50, contemporary and hymns.

For me, CCM just tends to be far too trite, both lyrically and musically to be of any interest or benefit. I find that Hymns tend to be better in that they have well thought out lyrics. Sometimes the lyrics are profoundly convicting. Other times, their theology is so far off from the Protestant norm that I am surprised most churches even sing them. Either way they are at least engaging. That being said, there is only so much of the plodding pace and droning vocals I can take before it starts to get to me.

So, what does put me in a "spiritual state"? Bands that have both thought provoking lyrics as well as creative sounds. Bands like Emery, As Cities Burn, and Virgin Black for example.

When music time rolls around on a Friday night, everybody else can have their spiritual moment, I won't begrudge them of it. For me, however, that moment has to wait until later, when I go for a midnight stroll through the woods with my iPod sending the strains of "Requiem -- Mezzo Forte" or "Son I Loved You at Your Darkest" swirling past my eardrums.

[quote="Radical Dreamer (post: 1355872)"]
This is kind of interesting. On the one hand, yeah, singing the same line over and over can get kind of boring, but on the other hand, in the Hebrew language, repetition is a method of emphasis. It's why Jesus is often quoted as saying "Verily, verily I say unto you," (or "truly, truly," depending on which version you're reading)]


In biblical Hebrew any word that was repeated three times was the ultimate/perfect form of the word. If it was repeated 3 times there was nothing better than that...It was the perfect/unbeatable form of the word.

Anyway I'm also more for the hymns and more hymnlike CCM songs, I just think that the lyrics are generally better and deeper. There are many times that I'll only start singing the song after I read the lyrics first...

I just think that the music is more of a reflection of our church culture. We are more focused on feelings and making sure not to offend anyone than we are on true holiness. Yes we need to love everybody no matter what they do, but we are called to call out sin in others (especially believers) and Isaiah (I think that's where it's mentioned) even goes so far as to say that if we see a fellow brother/sister sinning and don't do anything we are every bit as guilty as they are.

I don't care whether it's the music or the teaching, I'd just like to see less of a humanistic "feel good" attitude and more true humility and surrender in the church.

I guess in the end it comes down to us truely serving God and making church and worship (which isn't only music) about him and not us.

That Dude wrote:In biblical Hebrew any word that was repeated three times was the ultimate/perfect form of the word. If it was repeated 3 times there was nothing better than that...It was the perfect/unbeatable form of the word.

Are you saying that, in Biblical Hebrew, if a word was repeated three times it was the ultimate/perfect form of that word? Because I'm not sure, but it sounds to me as if you are saying that if a word was repeated three times, then in Hebrew that was the perfect/unbeatable form of that word. I just want to make sure, because I don't want to spread any misinformation about a word being the perfect/unbeatable form in Biblical Hebrew if it was repeated three times.

I guess in the end it comes down to us truely serving God and making church and worship (which isn't only music) about him and not us.

I agree to a point. Worship should definitely be about God, not us. The problem comes in when someone is singing one of those stodgy old hymns and going "Man, this is so BORING, who even uses the word 'thou' these days?" or someone is singing the lite-rock wannabe CCM songs going "Ugh this music is soft and repetitive, can't we sing something interesting?"

If you're not personally interested in the music, it's difficult to really be into it, y'know? I mean, you can appreciate the lyrics or message maybe, but if it's not your kind of music it's probably going to be difficult to focus on praising God.

If you disagree I'll be happy to record a praise song of me singing off-key while banging trash cans and playing a piano with my foot and we'll see how well you can focus on God if you're going "Holy crap this guy has no musical talent whatsoever."

So I don't think it's that people aren't trying to focus on God, just it's difficult for us to do it when we're not enjoying it.

Nate (post: 1356005) wrote:Are you saying that, in Biblical Hebrew, if a word was repeated three times it was the ultimate/perfect form of that word? Because I'm not sure, but it sounds to me as if you are saying that if a word was repeated three times, then in Hebrew that was the perfect/unbeatable form of that word. I just want to make sure, because I don't want to spread any misinformation about a word being the perfect/unbeatable form in Biblical Hebrew if it was repeated three times.

Yes in the Hebrew language of the time something repeated three times was meant as the "ultimate" form of that word. Holy holy holy meant that it was impossible for anything to be holier than that. Does that clear things up?

As far as the other points I do agree with what you were saying about how it being good does play into it. I also agree with you about it being harder to worship God when you aren't enjoying the music aspect of it. It's a bonus...I'm just saying that we focus way to much on ourselves generally when it comes to worship.

I like both but some hymns are definitely superior to CCM. Hymns set to a more modern tune are nice.

Some CCM I dislike since it's repetitive and relatively simple. It seems like they recycled some old stuff, threw the label "Christian" on it and called it a day.

In some secular music there tends to be a lot more raw emotion and expression. I get more out of listening to SOAD's Soldier Side than a lot of the CCM stuff.

That Dude wrote:Yes in the Hebrew language of the time something repeated three times was meant as the "ultimate" form of that word. Holy holy holy meant that it was impossible for anything to be holier than that. Does that clear things up?

Indeed, you have cleared up many things on a word being repeated three times in Biblical Hebrew being the ultimate/perfect form of that word. At first I was not sure that if a word was repeated three times in Biblical Hebrew, whether or not it was the ultimate/perfect form of that word. But from now on, when I am reading the Bible, I will keep in mind if a word is repeated three times, that it is the ultimate/perfect form of that word.

I felt like there was a post earlier I wanted to reply to, but maybe it got edited by the OP? Eh, whatever, I'll say it here. Maybe I've just gone insane and started imagining things.

A big thing I dislike about a few CCM songs is that the lyrics have this "Jesus is my boyfriend" feel to them and that bothers me a lot. I'm actually reminded of the South Park episode where Cartman becomes a famous CCM artist by taking existing songs and changing the word "baby" to "Jesus."

I don't know. I don't feel comfortable singing the phrase "Jesus I am so in love with you." That bothers me, as there is a distinct difference in the English language between that phrase and others. I love my mom, but I am not in love with my mom. That's the difference. I can sing "I love you Jesus" but I cannot sing "I am in love with you Jesus." That's just...it's kind of like a line has been crossed.

I agree about being "in love" with Jesus...that's always struck me as weird. I mean, I love Christ but not like THAT.

Nate wrote:Are you saying that, in Biblical Hebrew, if a word was repeated three times it was the ultimate/perfect form of that word? Because I'm not sure, but it sounds to me as if you are saying that if a word was repeated three times, then in Hebrew that was the perfect/unbeatable form of that word. I just want to make sure, because I don't want to spread any misinformation about a word being the perfect/unbeatable form in Biblical Hebrew if it was repeated three times.

Nate (post: 1356025) wrote:Indeed, you have cleared up many things on a word being repeated three times in Biblical Hebrew being the ultimate/perfect form of that word. At first I was not sure that if a word was repeated three times in Biblical Hebrew, whether or not it was the ultimate/perfect form of that word. But from now on, when I am reading the Bible, I will keep in mind if a word is repeated three times, that it is the ultimate/perfect form of that word.

Okay, I think we need to cool it on this topic. It's obvious that you've found something you wanted to make fun of, and you had your fun with it, regardless of the fact that it added nothing of value to the conversation. Now drop it and let's move on, please.


Anyways That Dude, I agree--often, American worship is far too focused on the self because that's what Americans are practically raised to focus on--themselves.

Indeed, the "I'm in love with Jesus" thing never stuck that well with me either. Why not instead of saying that one line over and over we express our love to Jesus by how we treat one another. Love is a verb, not a noun.

Nate wrote:Hmm. Your friend may be on to something there. I'm willing to admit that maybe I just don't like the music and therefore downplay the lyrics. Still, it's pretty hard to say "Maybe the lyrics are good but I just don't respond emotionally" when the lyrics are just "You are holy" repeated for two minutes straight.

Yes, I don't want to say that everything can be excused by that (and there are definitely some people for whom lyrics do matter above all). While I think musical preference is often at play in this discussion, there are legitimate concerns about the content of songs. There's a song in my church which reads, in full:

You.
You are.
You are God.
You are God God God.
(repeat)

I will believe anyone who tells me that the lyrics are what bother them in this case.

I'm involved in music at church, so I like music.

I didn't used to like hymns. Then when I started playing in a band, I developed an appreciation for them, and provided it's not one of the indecipherable ones, I appreciate the theological depth too. We play hymns "modernised".

When I think 'CCM', I usually associate it with a small subset of popular Christian artists who are with a small subset of Christian record labels (ie. stuff on the radio)... am I on the right track there? Anywho, I like the modern songs we play. I like a lot of songs, but one such song is Desert Song by Brooke Fraser.

I like all things in moderation.

At my church, we use contemporary music often times, but the way my pastor does it, is that he uses a calmer song at the end of the worship, often using an old, slightly updated hymn. I often compare this to my grandma's church which personally, worship wise, bores me. They feel like they are in a routine. Which would be fine were it not for the lack of relationship with God because of it.

At my church, my pastor always dedicates the worship to God and says teach time that "I apologize to new people who arent used to this unconventional feeling, but we try not to limit God with a routine"

And fair enough, there are many times that worship goes way over, with people singing their hearts out. not jumping and shouting and crazy, just filled with the holy spirit.

and that is usually when the softer hymn-like songs are played.

I think God likes variety, he want his people to dance and shout for him, and be able to lift there hands in silent honor of him.

I don't think he wants the majority of either side.

So I like both too :3

Yamamaya wrote:Love is a verb, not a noun.

Technically it's both. It can also be an adjective!

Ake wrote:They feel like they are in a routine. Which would be fine were it not for the lack of relationship with God because of it.

I dunno if it's fair to blame that on routine, although I do agree that when worship becomes routine it does lose a bit of something.

It's a difficult situation. Routine can become very constricting and boring, and the worship suffers for that...but by the same token, changing things all the time makes it difficult for people to follow and results in extra work for the worship team.

I guess you just have to strike the right balance of keeping things fresh, but not making it completely different all the time.

Everyone worships differently though. For some people, they get strength in routine because it's familiar, and they enjoy the repetition in a way...it helps them learn, and it helps them remember. Other people feel confined by it and always need change, they always need to have the next new thing.

And again, I don't think either one is wrong. Everyone has their own style, and some people thrive on repetition and others don't. It's kind of like in the discussion earlier, about how I think that repeating the same thing over and over again is stale, but to the Hebrew people it was really important and awe-inspiring.

I think in the end you're right though, both are necessary to our worship.

I actually don't like either much. I'll listen to a hymn over CCM though. There are some really good hymns but they never play those ones. I think the main thing though is that just not played very well and just can't connect emotionally like someone else posted above. That was my main problem when I was going to church. Not only did they play the most bland songs to begin with, it was just very average musically. I've heard versions of Amazing Grace or In the Garden that I LOVE and versions that are just "blah!". Same with "Awesome God"... most of the time it's blah but once in a while you hear a very GOOD version. In worship service, you get a lot of the blah stuff. I know at our church, anyone with basic instrument skills or singing ability can play in the service. I always thought we should give God our very best... not just pick anyone who wants too. One thing with the Church. They never wanna tell anyone no and there is no standard for quality. Same goes for Christian film productions and most CCM IMO...