Anime Theme Questions

[AsianBlossom]

Hi. I wanted to bring this up in the bootleg/illegal download anime thread, but this applying to anime theme songs, I figured it's better to put it here.

Now for my question: Momo-p was saying something about how it's legal to download things in Japan. What if you can't find a particular song here in America because no official CD or whatever has been released here in the US, but the anime is licensed. Like, for example: Kaleido Star has some great music, but the only song from that series I've found legally (besides buying some expensive import CD) is on the Japanese iTunes (which doesn't even take American money XP ), and that's "Boku wa Koko ni Iru" by SOPHIA.

Would it be considered illegal to download songs that you can't really get on CDs over here? Just wondering.

[EricTheFred]

If you were legally buying it from a Japanese download site, than from a copyright point of view it would be no different than buying a CD in Japan and carrying it in your luggage back to the US.

If you were simply downloading someone's CD rip for free, that would be illegal, since it doesn't matter under the law whether the CD was actually marketed in the US.

International copyright laws are specifically written to protect the IP owner's rights, including the right to decide whether or not to export the product.

About paying in foreign money. You should be able to pay in yen through your credit card, by the way, although you're at the mercy of your financial institution for the exchange rate. I've charged pounds, euros, yen, won and Philippine pesos to my credit cards, and even made a few ATM withdrawals overseas. They always make a fat profit by giving you a crappy exchange rate (although usually better than retail businesses who 'take dollars') so, It's much better for the exchange rate to have a bank account where you're going and wire the money there before you go. (I do this for the Philippines.) Of course, this isn't an option for what you are doing, but the credit card should be.

[AsianBlossom]

Oh, okay. Because when I tried adding some Japanese iTunes songs to my cart, it asked me to log in, and then kicked me back to the American site saying I wasn't allowed to buy from Japan.

Also, you can find Japanese iTunes cards on certain online stores. But I'm wondering if it's technically okay to do that since you have to trick the company into thinking you actually live in Japan.

[Momo-P]

If you were simply downloading someone's CD rip for free, that would be illegal, since it doesn't matter under the law whether the CD was actually marketed in the US.

Um, you might wanna check what I posted in the "illegal fansub" thread in Anime discussions. ^^; Just because the U.S. laws say it's illegal to download copyrighted material, that doesn't mean the Japanese ones do. As it currently stands, the Japanese laws say you can download copyrighted material and be legal. Their only catch is that you can't share them with other people.

I've checked Asahi everday since I've heard this news and they've yet to report on anything getting changed, so...*shrugs* I guess w00t for poor anime fans.

[EricTheFred]

I was speaking in terms of International copyright law. As of somewhere around ten years ago, U.S. copyright law was modified to be roughly in line with WTO standards. The Japanese may have a different take on the matter, but if you're working internationally, then international and your own local laws prevail, not the law from whence you are downloading.

[Momo-P]

Erm...could you explain that in another way please?

Last I knew, these songs have no owner in the U.S. Why on earth would our copyright laws apply then? It's be different if there was a group in the states that owned the rights to these things, but no one does. No one in the U.S. is going to take action on you for downloading this stuff because they don't own it. They don't care.

The ones who do care however are the original owners. In Japan. Under Japanese copyright law. And their law says it's ok. Why would I apply our laws to a foreign product, that makes no sense. In fact, how is that even FAIR? That's like the U.S. saying "we don't own this product, but we're going to pretend we do". They don't have any ownership over it at all. Like I said, they honestly don't even care. ._.

I want to follow the government because that's what the Bible says, but I seriously think it makes more sense to apply a government's personal laws to it's products. If someone in the U.S. licenses an anime or it's soundtrack, I won't download it, but if it's not? If I went to Japan I wouldn't go "Oh, I'm in Japan now, so time to illegaly download American music!" I wouldn't do that at all.

[EricTheFred]

Under U.S. law, the fact that their copyrights have been retained by the owners, regardless of what nation it was done in, extend their rights onto U.S. soil. In the U.S., the owner then has the same rights as any other person to defend his ownership and demand payment, etc. An 'intellectual property' never has 'no owner'. Either the creator or his assigns retain the rights, or it is 'public domain', meaning they have released those rights or the rights have expired by statute.

[AsianBlossom]

Then where the heck am I supposed to find those cool songs? Some of them aren't on iTunes and I don't have a Japanese iTunes card yet.

You think I could try writing the artists and paying them directly for their music? This one guy wrote into a local newspaper saying that he had a free bootleg CD with songs you can't find anywhere, and he asked whether or not he should pay the artist directly for the songs, get rid of the CD, or just keep listening. The advice column people contacted the artist, who was surprised by the person's stirring of conscience. He said that the guy should send him $15 for the CD, along with the CD, which he would autograph and send back to the guy along with one of his own guitar picks. Isn't that cool?

[Momo-P]

Unfortunately though, contacting artists in Japan is going to be next to near impossible.

In my opinion, I think this is a lot like the fansubbing issue. It's "illegal", but is it really fair we live on another part of the world? I know there's one song by Sissel I love, but the CD for it would cost like...40 dollars to import? 40 dollars for one song? At the end of the day you gotta make up your own mind.

And Eric, about the WTO...does that even count? Last I knew, many government officials don't even agree with what the WTO does. Look at the China deal. Furthermore, I thought that dealt with just trades and stuff. So if the item HASN'T been bought over here, how can it even apply there? I mean, no "trading" is even taking place if it's just staying in it's country of origin.

Honestly speaking, this whole business is just confusing. My parents and others are right to say it's a rather gray area because it really is. None of the governments actually agree with each other, even people inside the same government don't.

Many people don't see this as stealing, in fact it really isn't, but because copyright exists it becomes stealing. And is copyright even "right" anymore? Considering it's original purpose was not to pay off your great grandchild, I'd say there's some abusing of power and lust for greed going on.

Like I said above, AsianBlossom, I think you're going to have to go with your gut on this. One day you'll have to stand before God and justify what you've done on earth...I'd pray about it and then make a decision. Maybe it'll be obeying the government, maybe it won't be. Unfortunately the Bible really doesn't give us an exact answer on this issue though because copyright and the internet never existed back then. Heck, the very idea of wanting to listen to music from a faraway country was probably insane back then, it took forever just to travel to a nearby town!

[EricTheFred]

I only mentioned the WTO because it was the reason the US revised its copyright and patent (i.e. 'intellectual property') laws a few years back. I was not holding it up as law on its own. It's US law that is relevant here, not the WTO. (Sorry if I confused things.) And in US law, Intellectual Property is property as surely as is land or consumer goods or anything else physical.

International Intellectual Property law gets drummed into the heads of the engineers at the company I work for (which includes myself) on a regular basis, by anxious lawyers who are constantly convinced we would set the company up for nasty lawsuits if we were left to our own devices. So I feel pretty confident in talking about this.

Saying 'it's only stealing because copyright exists' is like saying 'car theft is only stealing because property rights exist.' The original purpose of copyrights and patents is still the principal purpose: to insure that people who create stuff have incentive to do so, by insuring that they have ownership of the creations of their mind. Yes, there is too much greed in the entertainment industry (especially the music recording industry) in both the US and Japan, but if we throw out copyrights, we basically throw out most of the entertainment we currently take for granted, because actors, writers, composers, musicians, etc. will no longer earn a living from their art.

I admit that I watch fansubs, and listen to illicit downloaded music. I do so in order to find what I want to pay my money into. My rule of thumb is, if I am enticed to keep watching past 1 or 2 episodes, or if I start listening to the music instead of wiping it right away, then I have to buy it.

Yes, it's not a perfect system, and it is to a certain extent rationalizing, but I am at least following through with the other side of the coin. I have a large CD and DVD library filled with stuff I've purchased after downloading it. I'm right now listening to 'Dream Diver', a Santara album which I previewed this way, then purchased from Japan. Just the other day, I recieved the first volume of "Tokyo Majin", a series I 'previewed' as a fansub. I can look over at my shelf and see Noir, Blue Gender, Initial D, Howl's Moving Castle, and several others, all first seen as fansubs.

In the interests of having a better (i.e. fully legal) way to do this, though, I have returned to the Pimsleur tapes so I can finish learning the language. Once I'm far enough along, I plan to use the Internet to subscribe to a few Japanese TV stations, and leave downloads behind.

[Momo-P]

Saying 'it's only stealing because copyright exists' is like saying 'car theft is only stealing because property rights exist.' The original purpose of copyrights and patents is still the principal purpose: to insure that people who create stuff have incentive to do so, by insuring that they have ownership of the creations of their mind. Yes, there is too much greed in the entertainment industry (especially the music recording industry) in both the US and Japan, but if we throw out copyrights, we basically throw out most of the entertainment we currently take for granted, because actors, writers, composers, musicians, etc. will no longer earn a living from their art.

If copyright didn't exist and I bought a CD, it would be mine. Asian Blossom could ask "can you copy that for me?" and I could do it and nobody could say a thing. Sure the original owner may cry like a baby and say "but I made it, give me money!" but that's just tough luck. I freaking paid for it, therefore I own that. That's how it works. The only thing that says I can't do that is copyright law.

Now...am I saying copyright law shouldn't exist at all? No, people should get paid for their works. I know I'd like to. But come on...getting paid after your dead? Do you really need to get paid after your dead?

Honestly speaking, most music and movies only make their money when they come out. About 20 years in, people may still like the song or movies, but I think you've made your chunk of change. Time to move on and stop being a greedy jerk. I mean...is Michael Jackson really going to go broke? Or Madonna? Or any of them? I can understand if the item is new/still active (Pokemon, Disney, etc.), but most songs and movies are just a brief moment sort of deal. They last for a few years and then the person made the most money they really could off it.

Not to mention you can't tell me the RIAA or whatever is being "just" by saying "You downloaded 24 songs? <insert thousand dollar fine here>!" The fact that the courts allow it is totally bogus.

I do agree copyright should exist, but they really need to go back and redo some stuff there.

[Nate]

Copyright laws only used to extend about seven years, this ensured that the original creator received his fair share of the profits, while continually adding new intellectual property to the public domain.

Then this garbage "copyright extension" came in, based purely on greed. So as far as I'm concerned if it's more than seven years old, it's fair game for me to download, because at that point the only ones making money off of it are corporations.

[EricTheFred]

Nate, I'm not sure where 'seven years' is coming from, but I've never heard of a copyright term that short in any country. Patents, perhaps, but not copyrights.

The Berne Convention has been around about a 100 years. The U.S. Congress finally ratifying it in 1989 is the change to US law that I mentioned above. You can read the Wikipedia article on it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention_for_the_Protection_of_Literary_and_Artistic_Works
I recommend reading up. Incidentally, with respect to movies and music, the term is fifty years, and this is not a recent change. I believe the old UCC (US) term was actually longer.

Guys, this isn't about protecting the rights of some rich movie mogul. This is protecting the people who don't make megabucks. Yes, you are probably right that for the industry moguls and the megastars, the majority of money is made up front. That isn't the case for the average author, jazz or classical musician, photographer, or indie film-maker.

[AsianBlossom]

This is getting interesting. Maybe I should post this link; Disney's probably wondering how the heck they can sue this guy, even though he's technically protected by law. *is ROFLing* (Since it's a YouTube link, please don't go wandering the site.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUPsfYJONrU (It's called Disney Copyright Law)

Maybe it doesn't pertain too much to music, but it's copyright law in general and also gets into the length of a copyright and its history.

But yeah; I do preview anime on YouTube...and now I know that I reeeeeaaaally want Lucky Star once it's licensed next year. (my two other series I actually found through AnimeNetwork on Demand...when we had it XO )

But back to music...