CAA: Christian Anime Alliance

Ok so I have my own place and no furniture. Because I like to save money and space and like simplicity, I was thinking about a futon rather than a bed. Apparently, a Japanese futon for the floor is much better than the typical futons you find here in America which hurt your back.

I was wondering if anyone has any info on these and where would be a good place to buy one. I found some on Amazon for like 75 bucks which seems too cheap to be any good but maybe they're good. If anyone could tell me about those, that would be great.

Also looking on amazon, they also have these fold out foam mat things called a "Shikibuton"... is that better or worse?

And while I'm at it, any other money saving, simple yet effective, furniture like tables, chairs etc etc etc would be nice too. I don't care where it's from, just as long as it's well made, simple, and saves space... The way we live in america isn't the most cost effective and everything is quite bulky and heavy... and over indulgent or excessive.

To over indulgence and excessiveness!


Anyway, to your original question. I'm not that familiar with the Japanese futons. I know that they don't particularly look all that comfortable, but perhaps that's just my western mentality liking a nice thick mattress. I'd recommend you hit up some thrift or even antique shops and see if you can find tables and such at those. Often you can get really cheap and unique looking things at those places.

Edit: Here is a link with some info on those futons. They sell them too, but they're kinda pricey. http://www.jlifeinternational.com/houseitems/futon/futon-info_e.html

I don’t know where would be a good place to buy a real Japanese futon, but if you post a link to the ones you were looking at on Amazon, I can at least tell you whether they look genuine or not.

Basics of Japanese futons:

There are two kinds of futons. A shikibuton is placed directly on the floor and you sleep on top of it. A kakebuton is like a comforter and you sleep under it. They are used together, so you would need one of each at least. Or if the shikibuton is thin, you might want two instead of one. This website has a picture of what Japanese bedding in Japan typically looks like when everything is laid out and ready to be slept on. What you see in the picture is tatami flooring, two shikibuton (with the upper of the two covered in a sheet or futon cover), a pillow, and a kakebuton.

more pictures of shikibuton

Futons are meant to be used on top of tatami flooring, which has some give to it; sleeping on a futon with hard flooring is not really ideal. If you’re used to Western-style bedding, one shikibuton might not be enough, so you might need either two shikibuton (like I said above) or one shikibuton plus a three-fold mattress like the ones listed in the website Xeno linked to.

Futons need to be aired out frequently to prevent mites and mold from inhabiting them. Japanese people do this by picking up their futon every morning and hanging it out on the balcony—or at the very least, folding it up so that it isn’t still spread out on the floor.

Both futons also need to be covered with a futon cover (you can just wrap a sheet around the shikibuton, but that won’t work for the kakebuton). This is because the futon themselves cannot be easily laundered, so instead you keep them covered and wash the futon covers and/or sheets regularly.

The last time I shopped for a futon in Japan, I think the cheapest kakebuton were around 8,000 to 10,000 yen (with current exchange rates, about $100-$125). Keep in mind that is just for the kakebuton: you also need at least one shikibuton and at least one futon cover, for the kakebuton (you can use a sheet to cover the shikibuton). Of course, imports are more expensive (usually around twice as much as the cost of the item in Japan), so actually, the prices for shikibuton on the website Xeno linked are about what I would expect for a genuine Japanese futon (their kakebuton and futon covers are a little pricey, but that is because they’re nicer-than-average goods, not just your basic stuff). I would be pretty suspicious of anything less than about $200 for an imported Japanese futon.

In short, if you want to get genuine Japanese futon, it is not going to be cheap and will also require you to commit to the routine of folding them up or airing them out in order to care for them properly. Honestly, I think that is a lot of trouble and expense, so unless you have tried sleeping Japanese-style before and really love it, I would think it would be much less hassle and probably cheaper to just get a bed frame from a thrift store or somewhere and sleep Western-style.

I have a futon I bought from Target a few months ago. I like it because I can use it as a couch and a bed. Sleeping on it is ok, however I usually don't sleep on it. The few times I've slept on it has been ok. The only complaint I can give is that there is not a lot of cushioning in the middle, so it feels like you're sleeping on top of a flat metal bar(or in this case, the wooden platform that supports the cushions). This can be remedied by changing the position of your body, though.

I'm kindof curious on what the Japanese think of bed bugs (since that's the reason, so I'm told, of why we keep our bedding off the ground in the first place). Me = ignorant of Japanese bugs (unless of course we're talking about computer viruses XD . I'm sorry, bad pun.)

Hiryu (post: 1503802) wrote:I have a futon I bought from Target a few months ago. I like it because I can use it as a couch and a bed. Sleeping on it is ok, however I usually don't sleep on it. The few times I've slept on it has been ok. The only complaint I can give is that there is not a lot of cushioning in the middle, so it feels like you're sleeping on top of a flat metal bar(or in this case, the wooden platform that supports the cushions). This can be remedied by changing the position of your body, though.

I'm pretty sure that's a Western futon. Check out Kaori's pics for a Japanese one. They're two completely different things.

However, a Western-style futon might be an option if you would like to minimize how much room you're taking up and still want something comfortable to sleep on.

Kaori (post: 1503791) wrote:I don’t know where would be a good place to buy a real Japanese futon, but if you post a link to the ones you were looking at on Amazon, I can at least tell you whether they look genuine or not.

Basics of Japanese futons:

There are two kinds of futons. A shikibuton is placed directly on the floor and you sleep on top of it. A kakebuton is like a comforter and you sleep under it. They are used together, so you would need one of each at least. Or if the shikibuton is thin, you might want two instead of one. This website has a picture of what Japanese bedding in Japan typically looks like when everything is laid out and ready to be slept on. What you see in the picture is tatami flooring, two shikibuton (with the upper of the two covered in a sheet or futon cover), a pillow, and a kakebuton.

more pictures of shikibuton

Futons are meant to be used on top of tatami flooring, which has some give to it]really[/i] love it, I would think it would be much less hassle and probably cheaper to just get a bed frame from a thrift store or somewhere and sleep Western-style.

Well here was the amazon stuff...

http://www.amazon.com/Traditional-Japanese-Futon-Mattresses-Meditaion/dp/B003VQNM2I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1315862835&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Brand-Shikibuton-density-resilient-Folding/dp/B004SOQGVQ/ref=pd_sim_hg_2

Doesn't look like the pictures you showed so I guess these are american wannabe Japanese futons. Anyway... I really don't mind folding them up, that was kind of the appeal and expected that... but if up keep is really THAT much of a hassle still... What do they do in the winter? Just curious... I'm sure they don't hang it out when it's raining...

I'm thinking at the moment just get a sleeping bag throw a sheet in that and just use that for a while cause I really don't feel like getting bed boards and all that stuff yet. None of the bedrooms are even done, I'd be sleeping in the living room for a while. I'm having new flooring installed and the only rooms with flooring are the living room and kitchen.

But I like my house spacey and empty. Living in a house with a mother who is a pack rat who throws nothing away, too much in too little space, never having any space to yourself, I wanna keep this place simple and clean as possible. And right now the idea of a full size bulky bed is un appealing. You can't move it, it's bulky... Even just a mattress is a pain to move around...

I'm perfectly fine sleeping on a couch or the floor. I just wanna make sure in 20 years I'm not the hunchback of notre dame either... which is why western futons are out of the question... I've slept on those before and after sleeping on those for years, I hear you get back problems.

Really a Japanese futon doesn't sound that bad (I got plenty of room out back to hang it) but since I've never done it before, I'll take it from someone who knows better...

ABlipinTime (post: 1503846) wrote:I'm kindof curious on what the Japanese think of bed bugs (since that's the reason, so I'm told, of why we keep our bedding off the ground in the first place). Me = ignorant of Japanese bugs (unless of course we're talking about computer viruses XD . I'm sorry, bad pun.)

The way that the Japanese deal with dust mites is by hanging out their futon in the sun regularly]Well here was the amazon stuff...

http://www.amazon.com/Traditional-Japanese-Futon-Mattresses-Meditaion/dp/B003VQNM2I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1315862835&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Brand-Shikibuton-density-resilient-Folding/dp/B004SOQGVQ/ref=pd_sim_hg_2

Doesn't look like the pictures you showed so I guess these are american wannabe Japanese futons. [/quote]
Yes, the futon in the first link doesn't look the same as a Japanese futon. In particular, it’s amusingly odd that it is clearly intended to be rolled up, because that is just not the way that Japanese people do things. Futons are supposed to be folded in thirds, usually in a s/z shape.

The second link is to something that we do in fact have in Japan; it's just not used nearly as commonly as a regular shikibuton. It's a mattress that can be used underneath the shikibuton.

Anyway... I really don't mind folding them up, that was kind of the appeal and expected that... but if up keep is really THAT much of a hassle still...

But I like my house spacey and empty. Living in a house with a mother who is a pack rat who throws nothing away, too much in too little space, never having any space to yourself, I wanna keep this place simple and clean as possible. And right now the idea of a full size bulky bed is un appealing. You can't move it, it's bulky... Even just a mattress is a pain to move around...

Really a Japanese futon doesn't sound that bad (I got plenty of room out back to hang it)

Oh. If that’s how you feel, then go for it. I guess I just tend to think that the routine involved with a futon would be troublesome to someone who isn’t used to it, but it doesn’t actually take that long.

What do they do in the winter? Just curious... I'm sure they don't hang it out when it's raining...

It doesn't have to be hung out every day, so on rainy days they just fold everything up and keep it inside. Honestly, I don't sleep Japanese-style in my own apartment, although I have done so on several occasions in the past, so I'm not entirely sure about what one does in the winter. I assume you would hang it out on sunny days and fold it up but leave it inside when the weather is inclement, just like during any other season. (*apartment came already furnished, Western-style*)

I was looking on Amazon.co.jp to see what the price of a shikibuton is in Japan, and I have to take back what I said about the prices. They are actually much cheaper than I realized—you can get them for only 3,000 to 8,000 yen (about $40-$100) in Japan. So actually, that shikibuton on the site Xeno linked is overpriced even for an import.

One thing that occurred to me since I last posted is that a kakebuton and a comforter are pretty much interchangeable. I use a kakebuton like a comforter on my Western-style bed, so you could also use an American comforter in place of a kakebuton; that's not the one that will affect the health of your back anyways, so the only consequence is that it wouldn't match the size of your shikibuton. And it would be much cheaper.

If it were me--if I had moved back to the States and really wanted to sleep Japanese-style instead of Western-style--then what I would want to do is just import the shikibuton and kakebuton myself by buying them off of Amazon.co.jp. But since that's not possible, I guess what I would probably do is get the cheapest authentic-looking shikibuton I could find and use an American comforter in place of a kakebuton. Then if it turned out that one shikibuton was not enough padding, I would get one of those $75 three-fold foam mattresses from Amazon. That strikes me as being probably the cheapest way to get a reasonable approximation of the Japanese experience.

On a different note, the Japanese have all sorts of neat furniture that doesn't take up a lot of space, like chabudai (coffee tables), which are an appropriate height for sitting on the floor, and kotatsu (same as above but heated underneath). This makes chairs unnecessary, though there are also zaisu (chairs with a seat and back but no legs). A zaisu provides you with something to rest your back against but is easy to move around and takes up much less space than a traditional chair (particularly easy chairs).

Good luck finding a place to buy this sort of thing, though. There are several websites selling Japanese furniture, but they all seem to be higher-end designer stuff, so I don't know how you could acquire Japanese-style furniture cheaply.

Well thank you very much for all the info =) It was very helpful.

Ok I decided to report back. After all that and I just went with the one off of amazon (the roll up one). I ended up getting that because the dimensions were the same sizes of the Japanese futons I found info on. It was stuffed with cotton and so are the japanese ones for the most part (from what I could find anyway). It lays out flat like the japanese ones so there's no pillow roll like I thought from the picture. The little knots in it are I guess to keep the cotton in place so it doesn't bunch up I figure. It unzips too so I guess you can fluff the cotton up and stuff if you need to.

So basically, they're similar just obviously doesn't have the craftsmanship of a true Japanese one. It had excellent reviews on amazon from everyone so I thought I'd try it out anyway. The three fold mattress also had good reviews and people seemed to sleep just on that so I was a little torn. I figured they're probably similar but since Japanese invented them, I figured they know how to sleep on them too so I went with the cotton stuffed futon and figured if I don't like it, I can get the 3 fold mattress and just use that or stick it under the other and see what happens.

And yes it rolls up but you can fold it like a normal one if you wanted to. I actually preferred rolling it up though... Sits nicely in a corner and easier to cary around and has nice little ties that fit around it nicely. Although I think if I was doing it every day, I guess I'd be folding it cause now that I think about it, it was probably a bit quicker folding it up. I'm thinking they fold theirs to keep the cotton fluffy too? Rolling it up all the time I think would flatten it. But I dunno this came rolled up and vacuumed sealed and was still quite thick. But whatever...

Anyway I was using it on a hard wood floor... and it felt great. I was actually surprised. It's firm and supportive but nice and comfy. I'm thinking I MIGHT try getting the 3 fold mat for under it if it starts to flatten but right now, I don't need it... I'm impressed. I actually find it more comfortable than a typical spring mattress. My only complaint is it needs to be a little wider (and maybe longer). It's very narrow. But I don't really NEED more space, I'm quite thin, I'm just used to having it and I like spreading my arms out more... but I think I can get used to it. If I have to I can always buy another and lay it next to it I guess.

Anyway, I am so buying one of these for my brother for Christmas. He's been laying on a like a thin piece of foam type deal since going to school a few years ago. And he just stuck with it ever since because he didn't like having a bed take so much room. This foam thing is like an inch thick at the most. So I'm sure he'd love this...

So yeah... incase anyone is interested, I give it my seal of approval if you're looking for a cheap bed that takes up little space and is amazingly comfortable.