Lost souls of America

[Niyana]

Ugg...I had to post on here cause I just had a long religious conversation with my friend and it frustrated me. I do not understand sometimes how people of this nation can be so blind. My friend came to church with me and he witnessed 10 kids at least(it was a youth group) raising their hands in the air and singing along with the band while tears streamed down their eyes, all because of the great love they felt in their hearts. Tonight he told me he felt like that the church was just trying to sell him something to make money for the church. I couldnt believe it. How can you see such love in peoples hearts and be so blind to God?? I do not understand how some peoples eyes can be so scaled shut that they do not see the truth that God has created.
One of the things that scares me the most is how people are so blinded in this world that they do not see the connection that when God is taken out of schools, all of a sudden, there are school shootings everywhere. It just makes me sad. :/ It hurts me so much cause I know Jesus loves them so much and I know He would have died on the cross even if it was to save just that one persons soul. He still would have died, yet they dont even acknowledge that He could exist.
*sigh* Well...I am curious to hear some comments about what you guys think as well about this corruption in society and the scaled eyes of American souls.

[Technomancer]

Well, you deal with two issues: the nature of belief and disbelief, and the question of culture.

I'll deal with the latter of the two here. I do not believe for an instant that the cause of these shootings was 'taking God out of the schools'. Correlation does not imply causation (never mind the very obvious legal issue of how God ought to be put back into the schools). After all, there are a number of countries whose school systems are also secular that haven't experienced these events (or similar aberrancies). The causes (and I mean it when I use the plural) for these tradgedies are complex. To some extent, American culture in that it often celebrates violence as a means, and also the fracturing of American culture as well as the accompanying 'culture wars'. There is also the question of mental illness, family support and intervention etc. In the case of Columbine, there was also the intense and disturbing cruelty that the shooters were subjected to by their schoolmates (who felt justified in tormenting people who differed from their concept of the norm).

This does not excuse the shooters, they will always be ones immediately responsible for their actions. However, to latch on to nice, simple solutions that simply confirm our own wishes is a trap that must be avoided.

[uc pseudonym]

Well, Technomancer had to go and take the words out of my mouth, as usual. You know, we really haven't taken God out of the schools at all; that law is one of the most misunderstood ever. All if forbids is school sponsorship of any religion. It was a long time ago that the ruling was made, yet the shootings are a recent occurence.

On the other hand, I view our society as extremely and horribly fallen. Or perhaps just the world. "Scaled" is a good word. Especially the blatant consumerism, humanism (secular) and egocentricism.

I'd have one word on your friend. Not everyone is built the same way, and he might not find the charismatic experience the people at your church were having at all exciting. Either you'll have to hope the Spirit is working in full force or you'll have to change tactics. Then again, consider carefully: what would make him feel that way? Could there be an actual reason?

[Mineko]

I know how you feel Niyana. Except, as a homeschooler, I haven't come in as much contact with the world. But yesterday, I was hanging out at a local amusement park and standing in a concessions (sp?) line and there was this girl behind me and she was talking to her friend about how some guy told her she was going to hell because she was a sinner. She said she didn't believe that she was going to hell because she never killed anyone. She knew she was a sinner but she didn't believe she was bad enough to go to hell. That was the weirdest, stupidest thing I had ever heard. I honestly don't understand where people get their ideas. No where in the Bible does it say, if you haven't sinned too much, you'll still get to heaven. People are able to blind themselves to truth way too easily. I wanted to say something, but I didn't. I'm starting school (not homeschool, actual school), so if people could pray for me that I'll be a light in a dark place and be able to see things the way God sees them, I'd appreciate it.

[Technomancer]

Well, Technomancer had to go and take the words out of my mouth, as usual

I don't want to get into debating salvation doctrines, so I'll try to avoid it (for now). However, I tend to think the matter of belief and disbelief is also rather complex, and entails a number of issues. For now, I'll simply post this for people's consideration. It's from "Gaudium et Spes", or the Pastoral Constitution on the Chruch in the World. I'm too lazy to provide a link to it right now, so have pasted a small portion of it from the copy on my hard drive. There are several more relevant portions as well in addition to what I've posted here:

The word atheism is applied to phenomena which are quite distinct from one another. For while God is expressly denied by some, others believe that man can assert absolutely nothing about Him. Still others use such a method to scrutinize the question of God as to make it seem devoid of meaning. Many, unduly transgressing the limits of the positive sciences, contend that everything can be explained by this kind of scientific reasoning alone, or by contrast, they altogether disallow that there is any absolute truth. Some laud man so extravagantly that their faith in God lapses into a kind of anemia, though they seem more inclined to affirm man than to deny God. Again some form for themselves such a fallacious idea of God that when they repudiate this figment they are by no means rejecting the God of the Gospel. Some never get to the point of raising questions about God, since they seem to experience no religious stirrings nor do they see why they should trouble themselves about religion. Moreover, atheism results not rarely from a violent protest against the evil in this world, or from the absolute character with which certain human values are unduly invested, and which thereby already accords them the stature of God. Modern civilization itself often complicates the approach to God not for any essential reason but because it is so heavily engrossed in earthly affairs.

Undeniably, those who willfully shut out God from their hearts and try to dodge religious questions are not following the dictates of their consciences, and hence are not free of blame; yet believers themselves frequently bear some responsibility for this situation. For, taken as a whole, atheism is not a spontaneous development but stems from a variety of causes, including a critical reaction against religious beliefs, and in some places against the Christian religion in particular. Hence believers can have more than a little to do with the birth of atheism. To the extent that they neglect their own training in the faith, or teach erroneous doctrine, or are deficient in their religious, moral or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than reveal the authentic face of God and religion.

[Michael]

Niyana you can't forget that not everyone is a Christian. Not everyone is going to Heaven. It's sad but true that many who claim Salvation are Pagans.

[Shinja]

it is a sad thing to see our country remove Gods word from public places. people forget so easily that the truths held in scripture are the very bassis of our nations leagal system. it is upon these things, and in the belief that God has created all men equil, that have given us the rights we take so for granted today. ive heard people (even christians) say that the 10 comandments should not be in public places because it promotes a religion, namely Christian and Jewish, and this is unfair to other religions. while the original founders of our nation made it clear that there should be no state sponcered religion, and that all religions are to be alowed to be practiced, they stressed the need to remeber and not to forget that God is the reason we have have the great country we have today, and that unless we hold to these truths held in the holy bible then we will fall like anyother nation apart from God.

[EireWolf]

Hence believers can have more than a little to do with the birth of atheism. To the extent that they neglect their own training in the faith, or teach erroneous doctrine, or are deficient in their religious, moral or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than reveal the authentic face of God and religion.

"The greatest single cause of Atheism in the world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, and walk away and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."

(intro to "What If I Stumble?" by DC Talk on the Jesus Freak album)

[EireWolf]

The periods of greatest growth in the Church have been the periods of greatest persecution. It happens today in China -- Christian believers are persecuted by their government, and yet more people are coming to Christ all the time. A better example is the Martyrs of the early Church. Christianity was certainly not government-sanctioned; Christians were being killed for their faith; and people were coming to Christ in droves. Why? Because they saw the Light of Christ shining in the midst of a great darkness. May it be so with us.

[Saint]

It is a very sad thing Niyana. I agree that when we took prayer and the bible out of schools it did have a negative effect. If the only effect was that it lessened the exposure of unbelievers to knowledge of Jesus and God. At least we can still be witness of God by spreading His word and our lifestyle. As for your friend try not to get mad, just keep showing love, trying to understand and praying for him. He may eventually change his mind, so just keep up that patient, gentle love.
As for so many people being confused about God, well the more people reject God or pass him by in any way the easier it gets to pass by again.
Like in 2 Corinthians 4:3-6 "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age [satan] has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, 'Let light shine out of darkness,' made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."
Whether it is school, government or so forth supported or not, it is always the Christians job to bring God/Jesus' message to the lost.
2 Corinthians 5:18-6:2 "All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. As God's fellow workers we urge you not to receive God's grace in vain. For he says, 'In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you.' I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation."
It is sad when people or society in general rejects Christ, but we should remain faithful and loving to present God's message of grace salvation through Jesus.

[Razgriz]

"The greatest single cause of Atheism in the world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, and walk away and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."

(intro to "What If I Stumble?" by DC Talk on the Jesus Freak album)

That's true, I see it around me all the time with my friends

[MillyFan]

[quote="uc pseudonym"]Well, Technomancer had to go and take the words out of my mouth, as usual. You know, we really haven't taken God out of the schools at all]

I so totally agree with everything posted in this post. It's right on the money.

One more thing: different people are touched different ways. I personally find much charismatic worship doesn't really do much for me at all, and I kind of burned out on it after a few years of sort of liking it. I mean, the choruses are so simple and repetitive, the songs to a one almost sound like love songs or something-which for me isn't very conducive to reverent worship-and I personally don't think standing with one's hands in the air is anything but a "look at me, how holy I am" thing for a lot of people.

Seriously, I feel closer to God listening to music that actually has somewhat of a message beyond "I love you, I love you, I would run a million miles to meet you" (yes, I know that's a parody, but that's how much praise and worship music sounds to me) and that has a beautiful sound. I've actually quietly wept at the end of, say, a harp solo or a rendition of "Amazing Grace" by someone who knows how to sing it.

[Spiritsword]

Just a couple quick points, because others have already covered the main issues so eloquently. I agree with others that separation of church and state in the schools is not the cause of school shootings. Others have listed some good reasons, I'd just add the media and their handling of the shootings, as well as the existence of the internet, and the misuse of the resources it offers.

Secondly, I agree with others that not everyone worships in the same way and not everyone will be moved by the same thing. I'm the type of person who tends to follow my head rather than my heart. So charismatic worship, people shedding tears--those types of things actually make me kind of uncomfortable and most likely would've pushed me away from God when I was coming back to Him in college.

But God knows me intimately and met me where I was through my friends--they talked theology with me, recommended good books (especially C.S. Lewis), and appealed to the side of me that was open. Sometimes that's what you need to do as a Christian--become what that person needs (to a point), and appeal to their most receptive side. Of course, pray about this with God first. But if the charismatic way doesn't work for your friend, try other approaches.

I've actually grown to like the more celebratory aspect of worship in the past year. I used to be very reverent in all my worship. I was like you, Milly Fan, in that I didn't like to sing loudly or raise my arms. In fact, I actually resisted the urge to raise my arms when God moved me to do so--I definitely wasn't considering doing it to look holy, otherwise it would've been easy to just stay quiet and still. But recently I've sung louder and raised my arms more--I've listened to that voice in my heart. So God can help those of us who are less emotional feel more joy during worship.

Originally posted by Mineko:
I'm starting school (not homeschool, actual school), so if people could pray for me that I'll be a light in a dark place and be able to see things the way God sees them, I'd appreciate it.

I will do that, Mineko!

Spiritsword

[shooraijin]

>"The greatest single cause of Atheism in the world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, and walk away and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."

I've always felt some shame at bumper stickers I see that read, "Lord, save me from Your followers."

While meant superficially as humour, I hear a pang of anger and frustration in those words.

[Rashiir]

"The greatest single cause of Atheism in the world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, and walk away and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."

LOL!!! My friend Trelos quotes that at least 20 times daily!!!

[Niyana]

Thankyou for all of your replies. I have talked to a lot of people about God, and one thing I have learned is that most people wont see the truth until they are ready to find it. Until then, they will see whatever the devil wants them to see and nothing more or less. It is only when there heart become open do the scales come off their eyes. So I understand my friend not accepting God, I guess it just frustrates me. Its hard when you see someone you care about so much going through rough times and you KNOW that if they just had God, their life would be 10 billion times better and happier, no matter what situations came along. :/ But I think we as Christians all go through that sometimes, even more so when you first come to know Christ.
It is sad though all the corruption in society, especially with peoples views on modern, so called 'Christians'. I know times in our society have been changing for a while, but the last 10 years, have taken an even bigger spiral down hill. Not only with removing God from schools('as not to offend anyone', even though, like it was mentioned, the whole US is founded on the Bible and that is the only reason we have been blessed for so long while other countries have failed), but with other things like allowing an Episcapal(sp?) bishop to remain in the church, even though he is openly gay, or to remove the 10 Commandments from a Judicial building in Alabama, as to not offend anyone. It makes me wonder what our forefathers are thinking sometimes, if they could see how corrupt and vile we allowed this country to become. Of course, I cannot complain much, after all, it was all prophecised.
If anyone has read much on the prophecy, then you know that almost 80% of the 'end times' prophecies have come true in the last 40 years, not only in 1962 with Israel being reconized again as a nation, making it possible for the temple to be rebuilt, but in other things such as the fast growing knowledge in our society, Christians more and more commonly being outcast and the object of public ridicule, and even in the tiny things, like groups of Jewish people living in Israel that are actually being trained to do sacrifices like what was done in the Old Testement. I think in todays society it is almost forgotten even how a true Christian acts because of all the hypocrites that go around claiming to be Christians who use it as some default when they dont even believe in Christ. But like I said, I cannot complain, it is all prophesized(but I guess that is a discussion for another topic).
Anyway, thanks again for your guys comments! XD
~Niyana

[EireWolf]

I've always felt some shame at bumper stickers I see that read, "Lord, save me from Your followers."

While meant superficially as humour, I hear a pang of anger and frustration in those words.

Yes, me too. It makes me sad. It makes me hope and pray that I am not one of those Christians who has unknowingly turned people away from Christ.

[Satsuki]

There's a very simple solution to this: Stop being friends with this person and people like him/her. You tried your best to save him/her and nothing came of it, the only thing there is to do now is pray that this person be spared from damnation somehow, perhaps via purgatory. Atheists bring you down and will try to convert you into their pro-abortion man evolved from rocks cult, stay far far away.

[uc pseudonym]

What is one to do in situations where "healthy" Christians are alongside ones a bit back along the path?

To clarify, I'll explain the situation. I have an athiest (technically closed agnostic) friend. I've been working on him for the longest time, to the point where he understands I'm not trying to convert him to gain heaven points. I always respect him, though he understands that I disagree with his position. Then, as we're talking, someone else comes up and (hearing his comment) says: "I wouldn't be surprised if God struck you down with lightning right now."

Bang. Work down the drain. What is my friend supposed to think? He's getting conflicting messages from two people who both call themselves Christians. Sigh...

[I diffused the situation by saying "I would" which made him laugh, so he didn't get angry. But the mood was lost, and we didn't discuss anything serious the rest of the time.]

Does anyone else have experiences like this?

[Rashiir]

Does anyone else have experiences like this?

All the time. Actually, maybe only about once a moment.

[shooraijin]

> For direct information about Scientology click here to contact us or if you are in the USA, call directly: (DELETED)
Uh, mods? Openness to diverse points of view and all aside, I think frank ads are a bit beyond terms of service.

[uc pseudonym]

You are doing more harm then god.

Not only is this humorous, it is also true 100% of the time (as it reads, not as it was intended). Now as to an actual response, in which I will attempt to address issues in posted order. Most likely by the time you read this, more people will have posted, as this will be somewhat lengthy.

This strikes me as something that will quickly become a debate, which CAA does not condone. Which means it will be shut down. I will attempt to honestly answer questions, but if I go over any lines, may the moderators forgive me.

You have me curious now. Are you Scientologist or athiest? Or is it acceptable to be both?

>Why are you trying to convert him? You are doing more harm then god. [sic] God comes to people on their own not with people like you forcing your views on your friend. Let him find god his own way. If i went up to him and talked about say scientology it would be wrong but what you are doing is just fine.

Due to the duplicative nature of this, I'm not sure how to respond. I tried to make quite a point of the fact that I'm not forcing anything on him. Would it be too much, however, to believe that sometimes God comes to people through other people?

>A maxim in Scientology is that only those things which one finds true for himself are true.

Eh, I'm really not trying to attack your beliefs here, but I feel that I must say something. If truth is relative, why is it truth? Why should one bother to believe in anything if it is nothing but a crutch created by one's own mind?

>But every single american bank note proves this wrong by having the words, "In God we trust."

I don't see why an athiest should be that offended by it. All it says is "God." Such an ambiguous word as to mean nothing, or mean anything to anyone. Regardless of whoever it says we trust in, a dollar is simply a dollar. Do you really believe a dollar used to solicit the services of a prostitute is a testimony to government sponsorship of a religion?

>Honest tolerance is a rare thing.

To be honest, I think complete tolerance is a joke. You cannot preach any manner of tolerance without being intolerant of intolerance. If you say all religions are equally viable paths to God, aren't you essentially saying that basically every major religion on the planet is false?

[Shinja]

So it's alright for that other guy to try to convert his friend over and over but i comment on something for a laugh and you want to go out and crucify me? Nice.

thats not the attitue behind shooraijin's post, we have a FAQ page you should glance over that has some rules of what is allowed and what isnt to post.

[uc pseudonym]

Pardon the dual nature of my posts, but newer things have been said since I finished writing this last one.

So it's alright for that other guy to try to convert his friend over and over but i comment on something for a laugh and you want to go out and crucify me? Nice.

I don't think any serious action was intended, most likely just removal of the number. I have a question, though: you commented on this for a laugh? What quite does that mean? Also, we should point out that this is a christian forum, and that we are going to have some standards. I'd point out that I haven't given my friend any manner of information, nor smothered him with pamphlets, nor even "tried to convert him" as it was put.

[uc pseudonym]

Isn't the basis for that quotation "I'm not trying to convert him?" Just pointing that out.

By working on him, I mean that I'm trying to get him to see that not all Christians are close minded hypocrites who preach hellfire and brimstone at the slightest provication. To show him that some people can honestly be your friend without any ulterior motives. Etc, etc ad nauseum.

[uc pseudonym]

Sigh... I sincerely apologize for the next sentence I am about to post. Isn't that attitude (of "I have a feeling you are somewhat like that") extremely close-minded?

My friend and I hardly ever bring up religion, due to the fact that we disagree about it. We talk about GURPS, or anime, or classes, or whatever. Basically the only time it gets brought up is when it is mentioned in classroom settings (such as history). I'm certain the only time I have ever quoted scripture in his presence was once to refute the accusation of another Christian against him. I simply couldn't let someone else twist a passage just to attack someone.

Oh, and by the way, your uncle as you described him is definitely converting. No ambiguity about it.

[uc pseudonym]

In regard to money, I see your point. However, I think I'll stick to my position that whatever descrimination the words on a dollar have, it does not mean anything, nor change anything. Do you think Iraqui peoples being bombed by American fighters really think we believe in God? But we can let this issue go, I think we can both agree it has little relevence.

Ah. Well, that is certainly a more logical position, and one that I wll not argue with. I was speaking on the concept that if all religions are true (not possible truth, as you stated) then it invalidates everything.

I'm curious about the evidence comment. What thoughts and feelings are behind that? Are you referring to things that lack any fact, such as the Book of Mormon?

[shooraijin]

> Very little in life can be proven.

Absolutely true. And I think we'd have a weakened concept of the miracle of faith if we had a religion entirely grounded in real-world tangibility, because in the real world, everyone dies, and any evidence of what happens beyond our brief existence is unseen. A religion like that answers no questions and feeds no soul.

I think that if you were to survey everyone here, of those who are Christians, they are Christian because God revealed Himself to them in some particular way that made His existence obvious to them. I know God walks with me because I've experienced Him personally (the details of which are unimportant for the moment). Others will tell you of their particular brushes with God and how they realized the truth of His presence.

It reads like spiritual hocus-pocus to those who have not done so, or who have for some reason or another in fact brushed up against God, and pushed Him away again for whatever their reasons. God pushes Himself on no person, because He doesn't want an army of mindless minions who serve Him because He ordained it so. I'm sorry if it's something you haven't had personal experience with, and I hope that someday you do.

Until that time comes, no amount of logical or real-world grounding can possibly justify Christianity to anyone, because there is only the presence of God that we can see in the world after His having introduced Himself to us. I'm joyful to have a relationship with someone who transcends all, and knowing that my ephemeral presence on this world is only a small fraction of the extent of my soul's thanks to Him.

[Rashiir]

Very little in life can be proven.

Aye, logic can only get you close. Faith has to close the gap. Not just in Christianity, but in all things. Because nothing can be proven, humans require faith to function.

[Stephen]

Ok first off...untill further review SSJ5Gogeta has been banned as well...you seem to think that CAA is a nice big pool to advertise your religion...Eh no. Later along with Agnoistic man both will be reviewed.