A question about Catholics that could anger someone....

[skynes]

It just seems odd to me that someone would have a problem with praying to the Saints if they dont have a problem with prayer requests to those still on earth.

Difference for me at least is that I can ask the person face to face, they will know me as a friend or whatever. I don't think there's anywhere that says that those in heaven know everyone on earth? I don't know Peter... or Paul... or Mary... Other than what I've read.

[CDLviking]

But they know you by virtue of their perfect relationship with God.

The saints in heaven don't have a body so how can anyone ask them to pray? Their souls are asleep in heaven and their bodies will remain in the grave until the rapture occurs.

Sleep refers to the bodies of the saints which appear to be sleeping, because we know that one day they will rise again. Their souls are certainly not asleep as we know from the occasional glimpses we are given

Mk 9:4 Jesus converses with Elijah and Moses
Lk 16:19-30 Although this is in the context of a parable
Revelations, beginning with Ch. 4.

[JediSonic]

Another thing to consider is this: even if no one did go to heaven until the rapture, and were in some kind of spiritual coma until that time, we could still pray to them.

God knows all and sees all and hears all; as an omnipotent being, one could easily argue that He knew everything that would ever happen in this world from the beginning of time! That said, I dont see any reason that the Saints, who are in perfect communion with Him, wouldn't be able to see any prayers that were said 'before' the rapture occured.

Another important point, going along the same lines, is that prayer can be retroactive. Lets say you have a friend, and his/her mom was in a car accident, and the doctors weren't sure if she would recover. So then, that night you pray about it, but little did you know that everything was fine and everyone at the hospital was quite confident that she is going to make it at that time. Did God still hear/answer your prayers? Of coures He did! He saw them at the beginning of time, remember?

So if 1)God is omnipotent (thus substantiating the argument that prayer can be retroactive) and 2)The Saints in heaven are in perfect communion with Him then it is easy to conclude that any prayer to Saints can also be answered, regardless of whether they "heard it" at the same time that you said it.

On the other hand, I strongly beleive that God created "time" itself... everything on earth is bound by time and space, but heaven is eternal! That said, and with time being the rather abstract and worldy concept that it is, I think its safe to assume that God and those who are with Him in the timeless place called Heaven can take in everything that ever happened on earth with a single glance. It would be like looking at a log file of what tasks a computer has performed over the last set period of time. Like an hour or something

[DrNic]

Theres one thing thats bugging me though. If we are supposed to go to purgatory to pay for our sins before we go to heaven then doesn't that completely defeat the objective of the crusifixion? (spelt right?)

[Technomancer]

Theres one thing thats bugging me though. If we are supposed to go to purgatory to pay for our sins before we go to heaven then doesn't that completely defeat the objective of the crusifixion? (spelt right?)

It doesn't. While the Christ's death on the cross paid for our sins, that does not mean we stop sinning, or that our sins don't leave a stain on our souls. People entering purgatory are already saved, but their souls still bear the marks of our sinful nature (which has to be removed). To put it in better language than I am capable of, C.S. Lewis once said:

Our souls demand Purgatory, don't they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, 'It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy'? Should we not reply, 'With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I'd rather be cleaned first.' 'It may hurt, you know' - 'Even so, sir.'

-Letters to Malcom

[JediSonic]

CS Lewis, youda bomb

[Vyse]

"Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.""Luke 23:43

[madphilb]

Another important point, going along the same lines, is that prayer can be retroactive. Lets say you have a friend, and his/her mom was in a car accident, and the doctors weren't sure if she would recover. So then, that night you pray about it, but little did you know that everything was fine and everyone at the hospital was quite confident that she is going to make it at that time. Did God still hear/answer your prayers? Of coures He did! He saw them at the beginning of time, remember?

This is something I hadn't considered... it is a good point (since I'm all about the whole timelessness of God and being "outside time" so to speak. Hmm... have to give that one some thought.

So if 1)God is omnipotent (thus substantiating the argument that prayer can be retroactive) and 2)The Saints in heaven are in perfect communion with Him then it is easy to conclude that any prayer to Saints can also be answered, regardless of whether they "heard it" at the same time that you said it.

For my own understanding of your (and other Cathoic's positions), how does 1Ti 2:5 come into this? "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," ( I suspect in light of these discussions that it would be that essentially that people here are bugging the Saints up there to bug Jesus for us, so to speak )



I do have one minor nit to pick about Catholics being THE first Christians.... not a big issue (and one I don't completely disagree with), the first followers where more along the lines of the current Messianics than anything, as the founding groups where practicing Jews (as well as the non-Jews).

The Catholic church however is responsible for forming what is known as Christianity as we see it today, much of the doctorine for the non-Catholic churches are based on what was already established.

With that in mind I don't have a problem with that (while Messianic Jews are technically Christians, they are also folowing Jewish customs and worship practices).

As the non-Jews began to outnumber the Jewish believers, things began to change.

I figure though that with any of it, if God let it go on for as long as he has, and works through each group of believers (I much preferr that name anyway), I figure He must not be too upset about it all


Ok, last thing I guess... I know that there are plenty of people from non-Catholic churches who pray to people such as their passed loved-ones and whatnot, and while I'm not convinced that there is anyone on the other end (aside from God), I can't see where it would be bad or sinfull short of the person trying to commune with the spirits of these people (that, to me, would be too much as witchcraft..... and remember that comes from a fan of Harry Potter )


It's a good thread, hopefully we'll all be able to play nice and everyone will come out of this a bit wiser

[CDLviking]

"Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.""Luke 23:43

Purgatory is not necessary for every soul, nor is there necessarily "time" involved as we understand it (see Jedi Sonic's post)

For my own understanding of your (and other Cathoic's positions), how does 1Ti 2:5 come into this? "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," ( I suspect in light of these discussions that it would be that essentially that people here are bugging the Saints up there to bug Jesus for us, so to speak )

All prayer originates and finds it's end in Jesus. So yes, esentially the Saints pray to Jesus on our behalf. Interpreting 1 Tim in a way that makes Jesus the only way to communicate with God is a misunderstanding of the word mediator. A mediator is a person who bridges a difference between two parties for the purpose of reconciliation. Obviously no Saint can fill that role, but a Saint can make petitions to God on our behalf, which does not make them a mediator.

I do have one minor nit to pick about Catholics being THE first Christians.... not a big issue (and one I don't completely disagree with), the first followers where more along the lines of the current Messianics than anything, as the founding groups where practicing Jews (as well as the non-Jews).

Yes, the early Church would have looked much like Judaism, but you must understand what is meant by first Church. As the time progresses, ways of expressing belief change. There is no doubt that as time progressed the Churches practices began to look different as well. The most recent example is the change that followed the Second Vatican Council. But 2 things remain the same: Doctrine, and Apostolic Succession. Defined Doctrine can never be changed. Every priest is a priest by virtue of the laying on of hands by his bishop, and every bishop is a bishop by virtue of the laying on of hands by preceding bishops, following a line that continues directly to the Apostles themselves. One of the reasons that Catholics are more closely bonded with the Orthodox Churches than any other group is because the Orthodox have maintained an Apostolic Succession in their priesthood. That is how we can consider ourselves the first Church.

[Kireihana]

Here's my opinion on Purgatory:

The Bible says that once we are truly saved, we cannot fall back into sin. That's not to say that we're sinless - we still do bad things, but we no longer have the desire to keep doing those things and we immediately repent of them. That's what I think is so cool. Once you're truly saved, it's a done deal! So I don't really think Purgatory is necessary.

"For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin - because anyone who has died has been freed from sin." Romans 6:6-7

I go to a Catholic school and my dad is Catholic, so you can bet that I'm not biased in any way, my personal convictions are my own. I look forward to meeting my Christian brothers and sisters (Protestant and Catholic) in Heaven! ^__^

[CDLviking]

I assume you are refering to assurance of salvation. Now please do not consider me argumentative if I raise a counter-question. Can you biblically defend assurance of salvation? I know of no less than 10 verses that seem to contradict assurance of salvation. (I only raise this point because assurance of salvation seems to be the reason you disagree with Purgatory, thus a proper understanding of this point leads to a proper understanding of Catholicism, which is the point of this thread. If this point becomes a heated issue please remove it rather than close the thread.)

[JediSonic]

just because you're not a slave to something doesnt mean you dont do it >_>

For example, i'm not a slave to video games but I still spent too much time on them today

[inkhana]

All right, guys. This thread is getting just a little too close to a debate and is already far OT. If you want to continue discussing this via PMs, that's fine; alternatively, please take it to TheologyWeb.

-Closed with approval of the admins.