CAA: Christian Anime Alliance

I know you have a "do not discuss title" for anime and manga.
Would there be any particular games that Christians should be weary of before playing?

I know people will argue it's "just a game", "it's fictional" and all that but I think there could be some games that will mock Christianity or outright portray it as evil thus giving the usual 'religion is evil' theme (usiually they'll chuck in the deity being a 'Goddess' as to try distance itself from being offensive - well it appears that way)
I'm aware of Japan's use of Christanity for a bit of 'flavour' - or for a historical representation - um I hope that made sense.

I know we all having various standards as to when we draw the line and how much we're willing to tolerate.

Just to give you an idea: I'm completely fine with playing all the Devil May Cry games -(I was slightly hesitant at first with the series, but I came here to seek spiritual guidence on the series - well the first 3 that were reviewed, prayed, and then made my choice.
I'm alright with DMC4 and SPOILER: Highlight text to read: I was wondering how they were going to play out the Sparda being worshiped as a God (long story short: Sparda sealed Mundus (DMC's equivelant to satan) - even though he was Mundus' right hand man - he did the whole "woke up to justice" thing - and saved the human world from Demonic slavery) - DMC 4's "Order of the Sword"'s portrayal makes it seem most likely that the order was based on the real-life Knights Templar who were accused of worshiping the demon Baphomet as a god), and I also enjoyed Okami
I would like to hear your thoughts on the matter. On some games us Christians may want to be wary of before playing it.
Please understand i don't want to start a flamewar or massive debate/argument and hopefully does not appear that way as that was not my intention.

Thank you in advance.

Sorry it's a bit of a mess, I am off to bed now.
Good night everyone! God bless!

EDIT: (Just fixing up mistakes)

Ummm, spoiler alert?

Weary or wary?

Also, please use spoiler tags for things that pertain to game plots.

I hear Pokemon has some bad stuff in it.

LupoRedgrave wrote:I know you have a "do not discuss title" for anime and manga.
Would there be any particular games that Christians should be weary of before playing? I know people will argue it's "just a game", "it's fictional"...

Well, that's pretty much my reasoning. Each person has different standards as to what they will allow or condemn... it's pretty absurd to say "hey, here's a game every Christian shouldn't play".

LupoRedgrave wrote:...and all that but I think there could be some games that will mock Christianity or outright portray it as evil thus giving the usual 'religion is evil' theme

Warning: Opinionated comment that might make people angry. SPOILER: Highlight text to read: I think religion is evil... but I guess it has more to do with how I interpret the word.

The reason the Do Not Discuss list for anime/manga exists isn't because the titles are considered "bad" and that Christians shouldn't watch/read them, and it's not a "Hey be aware of the content in this." It's because in the past on the site whenever there were threads about those titles, they would turn into flaming and arguments. For example, the 4Kids One Piece dub was, I believe, on the DND list for a while, simply because there were people who were very passionate about how badly it sucked and it just got ugly. If for whatever reason Fruits Basket threads started turning into giant flame wars, then it would be added to the list too, despite there being very little objectionable content in that series.

So that said, I can't think of any video game titles in the past that have turned into heated arguments, so that's why there's no DND list for video games.

I know we all having various standards as to when we draw the line and how much we're willing to tolerate.

Wait. I have standards? This is news to me.

Xeno wrote:I hear Pokemon has some bad stuff in it.

brb, dying of laughter.

Okami wrote:

Xeno wrote:I hear Pokemon has some bad stuff in it.

brb, dying of laughter.

heh, me too.

Anyway, yes I did mean 'wary' not 'weary' sorry for the mistake and forgetting to put the spoiler tag in there.
Standards was definantly the wrong word to have used there. again i'm sorry for that. D:

I did read the pair of the DN titles, and have now gone to read them again.

Yup, I thought I'd missed something.

Yeah I've gone and dug myslef another hole. >_<

You can just delete the topic if you want.

It's actually kind of funny because Pokemon has been called out for being "un-Christian" before.

Nate pretty much covered the DnD list issue. I guess if we had a video game one it would have Final Fantasy 13 on it. XP

Anyways, I'm not quite sure what you're looking for really, Lupo. There's not really a list of games anyone could give you that is "not good for Christians". It's like you say, everyone has different standards (or no standards at all) for what they play.

Research is important, I guess. Like with anime and manga, we like to research a series before we just watch it. Find out its rating, genre, summary, etc. Same goes for video games. Just be smart about stuff and if you find a game you would feel uncomfortable playing, then don't buy it (or play it).

For me personally, I tend to shy away from M rated video games because I never found them worth the content for the story (plus I just tend to lean towards Nintendo-esque, bright and happy games anyways. I like bright colors). There was only one exception to this, though, and that's only because I received a lot of good feedback about the game before I bought it (Persona 4).

Ah! Persona 4, the name is certainly familiar, isn't that from the Shin Megami Tensei series? (which is abbreviated "MegaTen I think?)
I've been on the fence about that one cause it seems like an interesting game. but I've heard in one of the games you go against God himself with the name YHVH. What's it like? (send your answer in a PM that would be awesome, thanks!)

I do try to look for reviews of games and the content but sometimes I can't find a spiritual content/ theological content one, except for here and 'guide2games' (christian gaming review) and sometimes I can't find the game i'm looking for. But that's ok I'm sure I'll find it elsewhere.

Sorry about being vague before. i just thought there might've been some game that I might enjoy but have the whole 'Bad Relion - also having links and subtle or blatant jabs Christianity' - message n it.

Aslo can anyone pm me what Dante's Inferno is like, please?
I love the Divine Commedy (I enjoy reading alot) and I wanted to get a general summary of how the game has changed it from the Commedy and SPOILER: Highlight text to read: also how the game portrayed the circle of lust and how much nudity and sexual situations are in it that would be great.

We also have a video games section of our reviews area and one of the categories in that is spiritual content.

LupoRedgrave wrote:Standards was definantly the wrong word to have used there. again i'm sorry for that. D:

No, it was the correct word.

I was making a joke about how I will play pretty much anything and don't care about content. :p Because I have no standards.

Ah! Persona 4, the name is certainly familiar, isn't that from the Shin Megami Tensei series? (which is abbreviated "MegaTen I think?)
I've been on the fence about that one cause it seems like an interesting game. but I've heard in one of the games you go against God himself with the name YHVH. What's it like?

Persona 4 is part of the SMT series, it's a side-game that has nothing to do with the main series. Persona 3 is where the game got into its groove (and will likely stay) in that it combines elements of a school/dating sim with a bit of combat. Most of the focus in Persona 3 and 4 is managing your real life outside of fighting monsters, and the relationships you build with people that make you able to create stronger Personas. They also have a dash of mystery in them, with Persona 3's "What is the Dark Hour?" and especially Persona 4, as the entire premise of the game is "Who is the culprit behind the recent murders/kidnappings going on in the town?"

The game you're thinking of is Shin Megami Tensei II. In most SMT games, you can choose between the alignments of Law, Chaos, and Neutral. Law is "utopia" where there is no evil or destruction, but humanity is little more than brainwashed puppets who cannot think for themselves. This is the alignment YHVH is associated with. Chaos is what it sounds, a "survival of the fittest" scenario where the strong survive and the weak perish. This is the alignment Lucifer is associated with. Neutral is basically "Humans control their own destiny."

What happens in SMT II is SPOILER: Highlight text to read: Aleph is basically the Messiah in Revelation, and he needs to construct the Millennial Kingdom so that God can return and humanity can live in eternal peace. In the Chaos and Neutral paths, Lucifer asks Aleph to deny his destiny and help him defeat YHVH and Satan, which leads to Satan (the judge of humanity, angels, and demons) deciding to wipe out all life on earth with a superweapon, and after he does that YHVH is upset about this. Before Aleph fights YHVH he warns Aleph that defying God's will will cause him to suffer the ultimate punishment, being tortured, killed, reincarnated, and then tortured/killed again for all eternity.

In the Law path, Satan joins forces with Aleph in deciding yeah YHVH has gone a bit too far and needs to be stopped, despite the fact that Satan will cease to exist if YHVH is defeated.

So yep that's about it. As a note, the main SMT series is always heavily into the Neutral path being the "true" path of the game. In the Persona spinoff games, there is no such alignment system.

Thank so much Nate!
Sorry I should've realised you were joking

I see. I got curious about the SMT - particularly SMT 3 nocturne, due to the fact SPOILER: Highlight text to read: Dante, although from his appearance in DMC2, (thankfully he keeps his witty and sarcasm in the game, just like in the Devil May Cry 2 novel: “…I'll give you ten minutes to decide. Would you rather end up in…a coffin or a dumpster? - Dante to Hitoshura/Demi-fiend ) unlike his appearance in the DMC2 game where he was serious and silent and quite unlike his talkative joking self in the first Devil May Cry. - was a fighter you could get in the game. (from reading the other games he'd appeared in) So in SMT 2 Lucifer is diffrent in this - they are two separate beings, instead of Lucifer being Satan's name as Seraphim before God kicked him out of Heaven, right?

Nocturne is a fantastic game that I'll get back to one day I swear!

Anyway, yes, Lucifer and Satan are two separate beings, and Lucifer hates Satan with a passion, since Satan wants to destroy the demon world, and Lucifer kinda lives there. Lucifer is the angel who rebelled against YHVH and was kicked out of Heaven, and Satan is merely the judge of all beings. This actually is closer in spirit to the Jewish beliefs. "Satan" in Hebrew is the noun form of a verb that means "obstruct" or "oppose." In the OT, the term "satan" is often used to refer to angelic or human opposition to something. For example, in Numbers 22, the angel of the Lord standing in the road to impede Balaam is referred to with the term "satan" because the angel was obstructing Balaam's path.

However, there is also a being called ha-Satan, which is a definite article meaning the opposer. It is ha-Satan who appears in Job to talk God into putting Job through his trials. Ha-Satan is also mentioned in the first two chapters of Zechariah 3. In Judiasm, there wasn't a concept of "Satan" as an evil being who opposed God. Rather, ha-Satan was a servant of God who would accuse people of sin and wrongdoing.

So, in Jewish mythology, Satan was never a rebel angel kicked out of Heaven. This view became popular, believe it or not, through the Book of Enoch, a book which is not considered canon by most branches of Judaism OR Christianity, with the exceptions of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church. There were Jews during the Second Temple period who believed the book to be canon, and they are the ones who interpreted the passages in Isaiah about Lucifer as referring to an angel who rebelled against God and was cast out and became "Satan," the primary source of evil and sin.

Anyway, all that to say that as such, in SMT Lucifer and Satan are two different beings, since they come from two different mythologies.

goldenspines wrote:
Nate pretty much covered the DnD list issue. I guess if we had a video game one it would have Final Fantasy 13 on it. XP.

Yes, that game is so bad it reaches an ungodly level.

To me the morality of games extent to two different regions of thought. Number 1, bad stuff happening. Now, as Christians, we should be pretty clear-minded that bad stuff happening is not something which places any moral deficit on ourselves. Watch a movie where Tom Cruise blows up a Japanese plane, and hey, guess what, you're not any less of a Christian. Reading about the violence in Egypt written vividly in the old testament does not place a moral burden on you. It merely brings you forward to reality itself, and reality can be some grim stuff.

Then there is the whole aspect of what one does. Now, here I see it differing from person to person. Like myself, which stands worse, me going into GTA-mode in saints row and demolishing a block with a tank or playing galactic civilization, conquering several planets and wiping out billions of sentient creatures in one glorious war. One is far more visual, the other is far more expansive in terms of scope and repercussions. Now, I've probably done all the bad stuff there is to do in videogames, or close to most of it, and I still have that moral urgency to in real life help old ladies over the street should it be needed. That's a general good moral sign. I've never had the urge to pull up a bazooka and fire it at anything in real life, nor have I had a desire to start something as dreadful as a needless war. Now, if you notices a game change you, THAT's when you should be worried. It can be for better or for worse. I see nothing wrong with controversy or expanding someones philosophical outlook, as these things are needed to form a steadfast relationship with God, and if anyone struggles because they see a videogame character they like conflict in that manner, which causes you to either doubt or dislike God? Well, then the problem is all yours, and while temporarily stopping that game and building up some own character is recommended on my part, I would not advice putting the game down, as it would be running away from a conflict. Now, seeing mindless and baseless blasphemy is another thing entirely, but that should just provoke distaste if anything. Also, don't take eastern games and their concept of God too seriously. Trust me, even when they make knock-off approaches to our God they get it wrong 99% of the time. So if they go entirely off base with their portrayal I would not give it credit as blasphemy, as much as I would categorize it as bad research and/or bad religious fiction.

There's also aspects such as magic, and in any game I've played so far, there is a general theme-park approach to magic. Now, as Christians, we are not to practice sorcery or anything such, but for the same reasons listed above as the eastern approach to western religion, I don't see, at all, any level of resemblance to what the human sacrifices of Baal, or the dark rituals of Sodom. Using a computerized mage to cast wind on a computerized monster is not equal to the king of moab casting his son to the flames for protection, or the old Persian battle preparation rituals which all followed strict religious codes. As far as violence goes, I would hardly categorize throwing a ragdoll character 20 feet away as a breach of the sixth commandment, and even if you got the most realistic, gory, traumatized imitation of reality it would still be outside the borders which the sixth commandment holds, because you are not killing someone, at all. And anyone who relates killing an actual person to the severity of violent entertainment needs to sit down and reconsider the general statistical approach to their moral code entirely, sure, I am not saying one should endorse such behavior or even access too it, but to even compare the two is equal to comparing getting a snow ball in the back of the head and being buried alive. If it changes someone for the worse, there is all cause for worry and all cause for them to seek the treatment we are so fortunate to have access to nowadays. However, if it does not and you still seek issues with it, then you better ensure you remove all which include violence, and trust me, a LOT of your library would disappear by that time, regardless if the violence is uncalled for and wicked, or righteous and inspirational. I'd wager there is more a threat to playing soccer, where in the worst case someone can encounter paralysis or death, than playing a violent videogame with a rational mind where the worst case is severe addiction or a trigger for certain kinds of epileptic reactions, but those need to have other mechanisms kick in before the tv itself create an effect for it.

So be cautious when comparing, allow yourself to have some fun if you are strong enough not to be lead astray, and if you're not strong enough then you better work on that, because things will most likely only get harder given time. If you find a personal objection to it, then hey, you're the boss of yourself and that's totally cool, but take care before levying charges of immoral or amoral conduct upon the general gamers.

Jingo Jaden wrote:

goldenspines wrote:Nate pretty much covered the DnD list issue. I guess if we had a video game one it would have Final Fantasy 13 on it. XP.

tl;dr

Just play some vidya games if you want. If they upset you then don't play them.
I like the ones that have guns in them.

*reads everything I've missed from last night*
I'm fine with magic and violence in games - I was completely, and of course still am, fine with Harry Potter just to be clear- and it's a relief to know most of the time that the eastern games and their concept of God have it 99% inaccurate as Jingo Jaden said.

The reason I made this is because I'd been noticing that some of the games I have been curious about and that may seem like fun and ones that i may enjoy had that kind of attitude - whether subtle or blatant (their verson potraying God as a bad guy and angels as enemies/minions)
I did it once before. (for those who are wondering, it was Tales Of Symphonia that I started to notice it) I didn't want to make the same mistake again. (before Jingo Jaden said they actually had it completely incorrect)
I was starting to notice a pattern, a nagging little thought crept into my mind, and I thought I'd seek advice from the CAA, and read opinions from all who have replied to this.

Nate thanks for the lesson about Satan and Lucifer. The little voice in my head was even saying "Ah! I get it now!"
I remember reading about the whole "Lucifer is satan before God kicked him out" earlier, and wondered about it with SMT. That is, before I learned from you.
I remember the Book of Enoch (it reminded me instantly of the game El Shaddai Ascension of the Metatron - which was inspired from said book with it's hero being named Enoch SPOILER: Highlight text to read: and the deuteragonist is indeed Lucifer. Though he acts as Enoch's guide....and talks to God on a black mobile. The development was led by Takeyasu Sawaki, (who was a character designer in Devil May Cry and Ōkami) Also, Nate, your avatar image is awesome

I enjoy them too Xeno, being a fan of the Resident Evil series. (and getting stuck on some of the puzzles )
I'm sorry, I might have confused people before. I'm on the side of 'video games do not cause people to become violent' of the infamous argument: do video games make people violent.

Thanks so much everyone for contributing and helping me out!

you can close/lock or delete this if you would like CAA Mods.

(editing spelling mistakes)

LupoRedgrave wrote:Nate thanks for the lesson about Satan and Lucifer.

No problem. You have to remember that as far as the OT is concerned, God's adversaries were other gods, mostly Baal. Plus the struggles of the Israelites were basically other invading countries, and the tendency of the Israelites to fall into worshiping other gods themselves. So, Satan as far as Christianity is concerned wasn't really a thing to them.

Also, Nate, your avatar image is awesome

As you know, we of the Christian faith believe that Jesus is not really dead, but that he must let the world think that he is dead until he can find a way to control the raging spirit that dwells within him

Nate wrote:

LupoRedgrave wrote:Nate thanks for the lesson about Satan and Lucifer.

No problem. You have to remember that as far as the OT is concerned, God's adversaries were other gods, mostly Baal. Plus the struggles of the Israelites were basically other invading countries, and the tendency of the Israelites to fall into worshiping other gods themselves. So, Satan as far as Christianity is concerned wasn't really a thing to them.

Also, Nate, your avatar image is awesome

As you know, we of the Christian faith believe that Jesus is not really dead, but that he must let the world think that he is dead until he can find a way to control the raging spirit that dwells within him

Yeah, and same here about your avatar and I thought I understood it. Excellent way to show it in a picture.