Sony Owes Some Money Now...

[Fsiphskilm]

[quote="oldphi

[Mithrandir]

What is "dong-launch" exactly?


And yes, they sell "game stuff" if by "game stuff" you mean SDK paraphanellia...

[Fsiphskilm]

[quote="Vo

[skynes]

So let me gett his straight.

Immersion patent the idea of an internal controller vibration device.
Because they have a patent, until it runs out, Immersion and ONLY Immersion are allowed to produce these controllers.

Nintendo got a license allowing them to use them.
Microsoft settled outside of court.

Sony decides to be funny, breach patent laws and make their own versions.

This leaves Immersion with 2 choices.

1. Do nothing, let Sony make millions of this, don't get their fair share of the money and broadcast worldwide the message "We at Immersion at spineless wurms, we do not care if you steal our technology, go ahead and use our stuff illegally cause we don't care!". Thus many more companies will start messing with them and they will make lots of gamers happy

2. Challnge Sony on it, sue them, settle with them, do SOMETHNG that not only gets them their share of profits but also sends the message "We will NOT let you steal from us!" and this will also annoy lots of gamers.

Either way they lose. Business NEED money to keep running, if Immersion went under then anyone could use their stuff without permission. This is a typical business scenario, steal from a small company, drag them through the courts over it and force them into bankruptcy.

In a word - Monopolisation. Big companies get bigger, smaller companies get squashed.

[Fsiphskilm]

Immersion didn

[Mithrandir]

OK. NOW I'll agree with you. The patent system needs a complete overhaul, and it probably SHOULDN'T have been issued in the first place. But, no, that doesn't change the fact that they are looking after their bottom line. I'm sure sony would have sued them too, were the tables turned.

As for the dong launch, it's tough to keep up with your posts when you edit them all...

[skynes]

I thought this court case has been going on for 3 years? But we're only just hearing about it now.

[Azier the Swordsman]

I thought this court case has been going on for 3 years? But we're only just hearing about it now.

That's only because.....

*in dramatic tone*

This time it's more personal.....

[Fsiphskilm]

[quote="o

[Mithrandir]

Then Re-read Your Posts Before You Post Them!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Nate]

And yes, they sell "game stuff" if by "game stuff" you mean SDK paraphanellia...

Yeah, I took a look at Immersion's website as well. Seems they have their hands in a lot more besides gaming...so if they annoy gamers, it really isn't going to affect them TOO much, at least not from what I can tell.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Then Re-read Your Posts Before You Post Them!!!!!!!!!!!!!

pssh, like anyone does that nowadays

[Tommy]

Wait so does this mean KH2 won`t be released in America?!

This is crap.

[Solid Ronin]

....I cant to back to no analog controlers.....and I like the rumbling...Thank God I got Kingdom Hearts..I was wondering why I havent seen it in stores...

[Tommy]

Yes I`m going to repeat my question:

Does this mean Kingdom hearts 2 won`t hit America?

And also, is Dual Shock the vibrtion or the mini-joystick. If it`s the mini-joystick, then I`m going to cry, because i can`t use anything else.

[Azier the Swordsman]

Yes I`m going to repeat my question:

Does this mean Kingdom hearts 2 won`t hit America?

And also, is Dual Shock the vibrtion or the mini-joystick. If it`s the mini-joystick, then I`m going to cry, because i can`t use anything else.

As far as I know, the ban is solely for the title 'Kingdom Hearts'. I don't think KH2 would be included..... I could be wrong though.

[mechana2015]

They oughta be suing Pelican too...and possibly Logitech, since they both have two stick vibrating controllers. I really hope they lose this tough...its really pointless, at least to me.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

mad catz and pelican both need to die...

[Fsiphskilm]

Take th

[Tommy]

Errr...does this mean they`re going to stop seeling games that require Anolog.

[Kanrad]

In case you haven't read, analog sticks have nothing to do with it. It is the vibration they're suing over.

[Bobtheduck]

They are BANNING kingdom hearts... My roomate is going to be really mad... Geez... that's really lame... banning games because they use vibration, these people are on crack. Shut them down, I say. I bet someone out there is going to do some things I can't mention because someone may think I was in on it when it finally happens, and I would be if I weren't a Christian... Man...

That's just sick to ban games for using vibration technology... Well, I think that a patent of all force feedback is pretty stupid (It has been an idea for a long time, and not exactly invented by immersion as some people pointed out) but I think Sony should just give up... I mean, Sony, out of greed, will let Immersion, out of greed, damage third party developers and game stores... The game makers and the stores shouldn't be punished for the STUPID JERK GREED of two companies...

[Omega Amen]

I guess I will have to add more clarifying information before we have more rants and worries.

Look at the Ars Technica article here.

The injunction has been stayed, meaning that Sony can continue selling their consoles with the dualshock feature. Furthermore, Sony will have to pay Immersion for damages and be forced into a licensing agreement with them. Sony can prepare an appeal if they want to, but they are still ordered to sign a licensing agreement in the meantime.

As an engineer who has listened to patent lawyer guest lectures (since it is a common alternative career move for engineers to get a law degree to become a patent lawyer), I want to mention one fact about the U.S. patent process. There is no requirement to present any working prototype of an idea to be granted a patent. The idea just has to be scientifically feasible, and a patent will be granted. There are many companies out there that do not make anything, but they get patents and have a team of lawyers waiting to sue anyone that happens to make anything that slightly resembles their patented idea. This is an effective way to make a profit for the company without having to deal with production costs that comes with actually making something.

There is really no restriction on the subject matter for a patent either. In one guest lecture, a patent lawyer showed a painting technique that got a patent. The technique uses a baby's bottom (or buttocks, if you prefer), dips the baby's bottom in a bucket of paint, and places the baby's bottom on the canvas to make a bottom-print. That got a patent. I even saw a sample of this artwork during the presentation. Nothing special, really.

The point is a patent is only about owning ideas.

But for the gamers here, calm down. You will get your games and dualshocks. If there is anything to look forward to, it is to see either Sony create a slightly different dualshock implementation with their own patent... or they might just find a way to take over Immersion (buy them out or counter-suit), fire the people who pursued this suit, and take the patents and money back.

[Mithrandir]

Boy am I glad you decided to show up here.

[Fsiphskilm]

They can't

[Bobtheduck]

There is really no restriction on the subject matter for a patent either. In one guest lecture, a patent lawyer showed a painting technique that got a patent. The technique uses a baby's bottom (or buttocks, if you prefer), dips the baby's bottom in a bucket of paint, and places the baby's bottom on the canvas to make a bottom-print. That got a patent. I even saw a sample of this artwork during the presentation. Nothing special, really.

See, that right there is an example of the idiocy of the legal system... They can patent THAT, and it must be upheld, but ideas like Tamagotchi can get cloned and they can't say a word... Gigapets... The thing is, the whirling weight thing is so simple, it seems sorta stupid that they can just continue to make money off of the entire gaming industry without doing any work. It seems silly that they can patent something that's been done before, only they patent it for what? Its activation through computer code? Come on...

And Volt spoke my thoughts pretty well, except that I don't think this would extend to things like books and toys based off those games... They can't really prohibit the selling of games merely for sending instructions to the controllers that Sony made... The lawyers who included that little precious piece, as well as the judge and jury that upheld it should all be shot... They dont' really understand the way the game industry works... The thing that gets me is that it was unanimous... Yeah... That whole game banning thing is stupid...

EDIT: Of course, with the period that Sony is still allowed to sell them, I think that the third party groups will likely make alternate versions of the games for the next batch of sales, sans vibration (which can be hard for some games)... Hopefully that's possible.

EDIT 2:

as Immersion seems hell-bent on a permanent injunction.

I don't think anyone here was saying they were banned immediately... Even the articles that were linked to here didnt' say that... It's the permanent injunction that will happen if Sony loses the appeal... That's what I feel Immersion is being greedy about... That is going to cause a lot of damage if it happens... I think sony should give up for their own sake but also for the sake of the 3rd party companies and the gamestores... But, immersion is a bit more greedy than Sony in my mind... Greedy, and it seems, with a case of corporate vengeance, as well as a bit ignorant of the implications of the game ban they are seeking... It's not just about sony and immersion, it's about people who weren't even involved... I think that should be taken into account, for those who don't understand the anger against immersion.

[Fsiphskilm]

[b][u]The wa

[Omega Amen]

The way patents and copy rights work

You CANNOT COPYRIGHT or PATENET an IDEA.
You can only Copyright or Patent the representation of an idea.

Hmm, yes, I slightly misspoke in my sentence in my last post. I was trying to get the point across that it is not necessary to demonstrate a working prototype of an invention to get a patent. All that is necessary is to demonstrate technical and legal merit, i.e. an abstract (meaning it is not necessary to give specific quantitative parameters) plan to create an invention/process.

That being said, Volt, copyrights and patents are not the same thing. I have links from the U.S. Patent Office that can clarify the difference.

Here is the definition of a Patent.

Here is the definition of a Copyright.

Here is what can be patented.

Here are the Novelty and Non-Obvious Conditions for obtaining a patent.

Here is a page that gives general information on patents and answers common questions.

Sure the baby butt painting is copyrighted, but If i were to use my own
*please clear all mental images*
That would be exempt from the copyright infrindgement.

That should be patent, not copyright, but I understand your point since you are not a baby.

With the baby butt painting idea (real cute by the way), its so simple there's no way to represent that by other means.

Actually, you might be able to still use a baby but spray-paint the bottom instead of dipping it in a bucket of paint, but I am not a patent lawyer, so I am not sure. (Poor baby.)

As for the whole example, the lawyer who presented it tried to make a point that in order to obtain a patent, the invention/process must be "useful." Apparently, the patent office finds a lot of things useful.

And they'll copyright your execusion of that idea, but if someone comes along and makes the same thing, designed differently, with different circut boards and design and implimentation. it's perfectly legal. it Ok.

(Again, should be patent.) Well, that depends on what a judge and jury says, really.

To get back at the subject, here are the two patents that this jury said Sony was violating (with links): 6,275,213 and 6,424,333.

Here is Immersion's website, by the way. Make sure you look at "Touch and Go" Forbes PDF article to get a sense of Immersion's motives. If you look around this website, it is pretty clear that Immersion's business model is based on obtaining patents and making money off license agreements or litigation.

[Bobtheduck]

Here is Immersion's website, by the way. Make sure you look at "Touch and Go" Forbes PDF article to get a sense of Immersion's motives. If you look around this website, it is pretty clear that Immersion's business model is based on obtaining patents and making money off license agreements or litigation.

Reminds me of those *blahblah*'s that make thier money by buying out common words and phrases for domain names so they can rent them out... Those people not only do that, but they often buy up (for very cheap) domains on websites that have temporarily been unable to pay...

"Hey... We need to make some money off the game industry. What are some things that gamers may want to incorporate that we can leech off the game developers with?"

"Oh... I know... Voice activation... I know that will be a good one... Ooh, and vibrating controlers... What are some ways that can be done... I suppose by shaking, but that doesn't get the right feeling... Maybe by rotation? Oh, and perhaps heat and grip texture simulations... I know someone will do that eventually. Man... As long as we do this, we have to do very little work and we can all end up really rich! I guess the gaming companies will try to fight it... Well, I guess we'll get even by stopping them from producing more games... We'll blackmail the *born to unwed parents*s into paying us big! They can't risk losing their entire market!"

"What if they still fight it and lose? Won't that..."

"Yeah, that's so great... Man... We need to work on these... IN a few months, we'll be rich!"

Oh, and Tamagotchi wasn't just an "Idea" it was a fully functional game. Gigapets was such an obvious ripoff... It actually wouldn't have bugged me if Gigapets didn't make themselves out to be the ORIGINAL...

[quote] or “(b) the invention was patented or described in a printed publication in this or a foreign country or in public use or on sale in this country more than one year prior to the application for patent in the United States . . .â€

[Fsiphskilm]

[quote="Omega