CAA: Christian Anime Alliance

I'm curious. I mean you see a lot of people these days having sex changes which I do find a bit strange, but like what if someone is a man or a women and decides that they would like to change their gender to the other. Is that a sin? I surely thought that it was a sin and not right. So lets say a man changes himself into a woman or a woman changes herself into a man. When the man changes himself into a woman he still loves women and when the woman changes herself into a man she still loves men. Like their interests wouldn't ever turn gay or lesbian. They would just change their gender, because they feel better the other way. So would they still be viewed as gay or a lesbian even if they just changed their sex and not their romantic interest? Is it wrong or sinful for someone to have a sex change? I mean of course if someone does have a sex change God would still view that person as the same gender they were originally born with, but would it disappoint God? Is this something he could not accept from someone? Could they still enter heaven? Is it like dishonesty towards God and everyone else in the world for changing into something you weren't born as? And I know that dishonesty is a sin. Anyway I mean its just very concerning wondering what will ever become of people in this situation, because I thought it was a big sin to just change your gender like that. I mean thats not what you were originally born as. What do you all think?

I can't say whether it's a sin or not given that I'm atheist, but the Bible doesn't talk about transgenders (seeing as they didn't exist back then). As far as transgenders go, they don't just one day decide they want to be the opposite gender, walk down to the local sex-change store, and have a switchero done. There is a long process involved in a gender change, and the people who undergo then generally do so because they feel they were born the wrong gender.

So is it a sin? I dunno. Someone else let me know if god tells you directly himself, because that'd be the only way I'd get to believe a lot of things anymore.

If someone born male has SRS and hormone therapy to become a woman, and she is sexually attracted to women, then she is by definition a lesbian. Same for a FtM trans-male who is sexually attracted to men, he would be gay.

At any rate, Xeno is correct, the Bible says literally nothing about this because the surgery and therapy necessary to transition to the opposite sex didn't exist in those days. Some people do quote some verses they feel condemns this, but I am not convinced.

I'd like to close by saying I am very close friends with a few trans-women, and as Xeno said, they didn't just wake up and go "I think I want to be a woman today!" It's difficult to explain to someone who hasn't ever had problems with their gender identity, but it boils down to their body feeling wrong. Their sense of self is out of whack. A couple of them have tried to fight it, a couple of them accepted it quickly. In either case, they've had to deal with fear of people harming them because of who they are, or have to deal with personal attacks on their character. One of my friends said "I just want to feel comfortable in my own body. I want to be who I am."

So yeah, I don't see how there could possibly be anything wrong with it, unless you kinda wanna throw all of modern medicine out the window too.

I'm with Nate on the possible reasons for why someone would change his/her sex. As a matter of fact, someone in my family is going through the process. It's difficult to grasp for all of us, but we don't love this person any less for this kind of decision. Is this person in sin? That's something that neither I or the rest of my family have the right to determine. We are called to love no matter what, even if we don't always agree with someone's choices.

Nate wrote:If someone born male has SRS and hormone therapy to become a woman, and she is sexually attracted to women, then she is by definition a lesbian. Same for a FtM trans-male who is sexually attracted to men, he would be gay.

At any rate, Xeno is correct, the Bible says literally nothing about this because the surgery and therapy necessary to transition to the opposite sex didn't exist in those days. Some people do quote some verses they feel condemns this, but I am not convinced.

I'd like to close by saying I am very close friends with a few trans-women, and as Xeno said, they didn't just wake up and go "I think I want to be a woman today!" It's difficult to explain to someone who hasn't ever had problems with their gender identity, but it boils down to their body feeling wrong. Their sense of self is out of whack. A couple of them have tried to fight it, a couple of them accepted it quickly. In either case, they've had to deal with fear of people harming them because of who they are, or have to deal with personal attacks on their character. One of my friends said "I just want to feel comfortable in my own body. I want to be who I am."

So yeah, I don't see how there could possibly be anything wrong with it, unless you kinda wanna throw all of modern medicine out the window too.

So what you are saying is that even if a man changed himself into a women and the women changed herself into a man. The man changing himself into a women, still in love with women and a women changing herself into a man, still in love with men, would still make them gay and lesbian? I mean they were originally born as the other gender anyway. They just changed themselves into the opposite sex.

I'm just hoping that for those kind of trans-gendered people that it isn't a sin, cause I'm pretty sure that they can't help how they feel about themselves if they don't feel comfortable with what they were born with. Now I know that for sure being gay or a lesbian is a sin and I've always been highly against that. Its just that the trans-gender thing is whats really confusing me right now.

Another thing could someone still be a very good Christian even if they had a sex change?

Jigzy wrote:Now I know that for sure being gay or a lesbian is a sin and I've always been highly against that.

You're sure about that? There is a lot of debate in the Christian community as to whether being homosexual is a sin or not. It can be very easily argued that gays and lesbians are born the way they are, just like people who opt to have a sex-change operation feel they were born differently. You're painting one group with a very broad brush while trying to use a fine one to define another.

Edit: changed verbiage.

Jigzy wrote:So what you are saying is that even if a man changed himself into a women and the women changed herself into a man. The man changing himself into a women, still in love with women and a women changing herself into a man, still in love with men, would still make them gay and lesbian? I mean they were originally born as the other gender anyway. They just changed themselves into the opposite sex.

This is where there's a misunderstanding about gender and sex. Gender is whether someone feels that they are a boy or girl (or other on in-between). Sex is what you have between your legs. These things are not correlated, which is why you have tomboys and (lacking a word for the male equivalent). When somene is transsexual, they feel that their sex doesn't match up to their gender. So, mentally, a MtF transsexual who was originally attracted to girls felt from the beginning that they were a girl as well - thus, making them a lesbian. Vice-vera for FtM transsexuals.

I'm just hoping that for those kind of trans-gendered people that it isn't a sin, cause I'm pretty sure that they can't help how they feel about themselves if they don't feel comfortable with what they were born with. Now I know that for sure being gay or a lesbian is a sin and I've always been highly against that. Its just that the trans-gender thing is whats really confusing me right now.

Not even going to touch this one.

Another thing could someone still be a very good Christian even if they had a sex change?

A main teaching of Christianity is that people are inherently touched by sin - even you right at this moment - so yes, they can be good Christians, just as you are a good Christian even though you are not without sin.

As for whether or not a sex change is sin, I'm not God. So I'm not gonna pretend to know the answer to that. As I said earlier, we are called to love people the way He does. Unconditionally.

[redacted]

Zeldafan2 wrote:“A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God"

Deuteromoney 22:25

This deals with cross-dressing, which is an entirely different matter.

Consider this post deleted - now pardon me while I go report a bug.

Xeno wrote:

Jigzy wrote:Now I know that for sure being gay or a lesbian is a sin and I've always been highly against that.

You're sure about that? There is a lot of debate in the Christian community as to whether being homosexual is a sin or not. It can be very easily argued that gays and lesbians are born the way they are, just like people who opt to have a sex-change operation feel they were born differently. You're painting one group with a very broad brush while trying to use a fine one to define another.

Edit: changed verbiage.

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Atria35 wrote:

Zeldafan2 wrote:“A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God"

Deuteromoney 22:25

This deals with cross-dressing, which is an entirely different matter.

To add on to this, it's not just about cross-dressing in general, the verse is about cross-dressing for specific reasons. For example, a man dressing as a woman to duck out of military service, or a woman dressing as a man to gain access to military or political position. Also keep in mind, this was in ancient time when women were considered property and had no value, so they weren't allowed to be in the military or hold political office or be religious leaders. The verse is also in the middle of a bunch of Jewish ceremonial laws, which makes it incredibly odd to have something that would be an abomination to God and forbidden for everyone the world over to do listed right there.

You also can't assume someone who wants or needs a sex change identifies as transgendered. Many times that is the case, but there are also rare instances of physical or genetic issues, such as a child being born intersex (the physical evidence of sex is ambiguous) and a doctor deciding to perform sex-assignment surgery and choosing the wrong gender. I would hardly call righting a doctors mistake a "sin".

This is an infinitely complex issue that cannot be covered with blanket statements.

There's also the hard fact that a person (whether male or female) who has gone through the procedure to become the opposite has to CONSTANTLY take hormones to maintain the (physical) appearance of being male or female. Does that change the person's individual sexual orientation? I can't say. I don't know anyone nearby who has gone through it. I'm sure it's a challenge to just be accepted, and should I meet more people who have gone through a sex change--even if I knew them as the opposite prior to what they are at present--that won't change how I view them and especially how I treat them.

I mean like what if part of the persons body turns out to look very lady or manly like, maybe that might make them wanna change their gender. Is that bad? I'm not saying that I don't accept people like that though.

Jigzy wrote:I mean like what if part of the persons body turns out to look very lady or manly like, maybe that might make them wanna change their gender. Is that bad? I'm not saying that I don't accept people like that though.

..... I have never met anyone like this, and don't really think that people like this exist (though there are always outliers). People who are transgendered change their bodies because they feel that they are the wrong gender to begin with - not to fit their body to society's whimsical standards of beauty. Those who think that part of their bodies are ugly and masculine tend to have surgeries to 'fix' it, such as breast implants and the like. It's another matter entirely to have sex reassignment surgery.

Atria35 wrote:

Jigzy wrote:I mean like what if part of the persons body turns out to look very lady or manly like, maybe that might make them wanna change their gender. Is that bad? I'm not saying that I don't accept people like that though.

..... I have never met anyone like this, and don't really think that people like this exist (though there are always outliers). People who are transgendered change their bodies because they feel that they are the wrong gender to begin with - not to fit their body to society's whimsical standards of beauty. Those who think that part of their bodies are ugly and masculine tend to have surgeries to 'fix' it, such as breast implants and the like. It's another matter entirely to have sex reassignment surgery.

Like say a man has a breast. They may had accidentally appeared on him when he was a child. He could get the breast removal surgery done to him, but he could be overweight. So that may prevent him from being able to get them removed. Does that make any since? I suppose that could happen.

^ That makes absolutely no sense as breasts don't appear on men when they're kids. And if someone were *that* overweight, then they wouldn't perform any surgery on him. Gender reassignment is far more involved than breast reduction. (actually, let me correct that - both men and women have breasts. Women just have larger mammary glands. What would happen if a boy happened to go through puberty where they developed when underage for puberty, is they'd probably assign hormone therapy to fix it)

I'm just going to reiterate myself here: Sex reassignment is never done without huge, ginormous amounts of counseling because it's such a huge, major change. Not just on the person, but their lifestyle and the way people and society interact with them. People DO NOT undergo this unless they have serious issues with the sex they are - and if they're happy with their current sex, people undergo surgeries to fix the minor 'imperfections' that they're unhappy with (breast implants for women, whatever for men). Sex reassignment surgery is far, FAR more intrusive, involved, risky, and long-term than any surgery to just correct what someone might find ugly.

DaughterofZion's addition is valid, and perhaps the closest to what you're going for - there are babies born intersex (without clear, defining genitalia), and at that point the doctors and parents choose whether they're going to assign a sex to the kid or leave it be. Most choose to go ahead with some sort of sex reassignment to make the kid a boy or girl... which might not align with what gender the child has as the kid grows up. But if a boy decides to become a girl later on, then it's because he always felt he was a girl mentally... and would make an attraction to other girls homosexual in nature.

Again, don't forget the effects of the hormones.

Jigzy wrote:So what you are saying is that even if a man changed himself into a women and the women changed herself into a man. The man changing himself into a women, still in love with women and a women changing herself into a man, still in love with men, would still make them gay and lesbian?

Yes, that's correct. Again, it has to do with the fact that they identify as a gender that does not match their sex. Even though they were born physically male, they identify as a woman. Thus, if they identify as a woman, and are attracted to women, they are lesbian (because she is a woman attracted to women). Likewise, if someone born female but identifies as a man, and is attracted to men, then that would make him gay.

Atria35 wrote:Sex reassignment is never done without huge, ginormous amounts of counseling because it's such a huge, major change.

Echoing this. You have to have been in therapy for a long time, and have a signed doctor's note before they'll even consider giving you sex reassignment surgery. It's even very difficult to obtain hormones for hormone therapy unless you're undergoing therapy. This isn't something you can just pop in to the doctor and go "I'd like to change my sex please!" and they'll do it. It takes months of counseling, especially to make sure that the person really is transgender and isn't mistaken, or they have some other condition such as gender fluidity which means the person can identify as both male and female at different times.

In regards to intersex children, this is an interesting case that warrants mentioning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

Basically what happened is this guy had an accident during his circumcision, which destroyed his junk. So the parents decided "Let's just say he's a girl, and everything is fine." The problem is, as the kid grew up, he never identified as female, despite being raised as a girl his entire childhood. They even gave him female hormones to make his body more female, and yet he still did not identify as a woman. This case makes a very strong argument that gender is not something that is learned, but is an innate part of the self, since if it was something that could be learned then Reimer should never have identified as male.

I also have the testimony of someone I met online, who was born intersex, and his parents decided he should be male and had sex reassignment surgery done to make him male physically. When he became a teenager he became really confused about his gender identity, and talked to his parents...who told him that he had been born intersexed and they made the decision to raise him male. Last I heard, he identifies as female now, and says she realizes why she was confused about her gender identity. I guess when you have an intersex child, all you can do is make a best guess as to which gender to raise them as.