CAA: Christian Anime Alliance

Okay. This is a long story, but it's late, so I'll try to put down the basics.

Over the course of a few years, with extreme escalation this year, my friends and I have been struggling with two individuals that are members of a Church of Christ. While we care about these people, and at one point they were our good friends, they infuriate us. Why?

They think we're going to hell.

While I know we are confident in our salvation, it has come to debating them off-and-on for a LONG time. In fact, I debated the girl involved in seventh grade (we're seniors now) AND her youth minister on the matter.

Many Churches of Christ are different, but theirs, in particular:

• Believes that, essentially, baptism saves you. You HAVE TO BE baptized AND BELIEVE that it is saving you, or you go to Hell. This is wrong.
• Using musical instruments in a church service in public is a sin. As a flutist in our church orchestra and daughter of our pianist, this offends me. It is my way of worshiping. Their only basis for this is because they aren't mentioned in worship in the New Testament.
• Rejects the Old Testament entirely. Calls the 'Psalms' law (I haven't figured that out yet) and ends up essentially ignoring a huge case for Jesus (the prophecies about Him). However, they have used the OT against us for no apparent reason. Double standards.

They also take the Lord's Supper EVERY Sunday because Paul (I think) took it on a particular Sunday. I don't get the logic, but this isn't really a problem. It just, to me, makes it less special.

The issue here is, though, that they believe that we, and all other genuine Christians aside from themselves, are going to Hell. And they're wrong. These two people are debating us, but they lack logic skills and refuse to concede to anything, even when they are blatantly wrong in the face of biblical truth.

The boy went so far as to writing vindictive and antagonizing messages in his Facebook statuses, which I became infuriated at. The girl - who converted him - is not as aggressive as he. We think he's defensive because he's compensating for his doubt. He posted a big note on Facebook, too, having to do with a Greek word dispute that he and my friend had. He was wrong, according to someone I know who is currently in seminary. However, when three typically uninvolved people tried to tell him was wrong, and in proving it, HE DELETED THEIR MESSAGES and posted a wimpy excuse about not wanting to spark a debate and to take it in private. I say if you aren't willing to have it out in the open, you fear losing. But that's just my analysis.

And now, when my friend proved him wrong on a point - beyond any possible denial - he washed his hands of the situation. (Not to mention we've referenced Max Lucado, who left a Church of Christ at one point and has made his belief clear on that Christ saves you, NOT baptism). This has been going on at this intensity for almost a year. And yet the CoC boy is still egging him and the others of us on, disregarding their desire to bury this bitter root. It makes me furious, which is one request. I've been really tempted to say some very mean things to him and snipe back at him. So far, I haven't. But I'm afraid I will one day and do more damage than good. See, I love debate, especially in this realm. But I can be so mean sometimes when people refuse to see and have no respect for you. It's really hard. The only thing keeping me from doing it has been the foresight of them using it against me/us and it potentially hurting our testimony/integrity.

This debate has taken a deep toll on several of our friends. I'm not so much a casualty aside from getting angry, but others have been greatly drained and troubled by this situation. It hurts us so much to think someone, even in face of our obvious love for God and His Word, believes that we're going to Hell. It's troubling, to say the least. In fact, when I was in seventh grade, this girl inferred that my grandfather (a wonderful, godly man who was both a missionary to South Korea and the Philippines, as well as a preacher, and who went to be with the Lord only two years prior) had gone to Hell.

Pray for me, for temper control, for my group to remain firm and put it away before it damages them more, and these two CoC members to understand. There's so much more to this, as far as actual debate content goes, but I won't get into it here.

Next, my aunt and uncle, missionaries, are moving to Prague this summer on a new mission assignment.

My sister is going on a mission trip to Montana this summer as well. It'll be her first time flying.

Lastly, a family in our church, the Gibsons, have suffered a loss. Their son Brad, 25, was killed in a car accident on Sunday, along with another passenger. They weren't wearing seatbelts and were flung from the vehicle after a car ran a stop sign and pulled out in front of them. The father is a Driver's Ed instructor at my high school, as well as a baseball coach. It was heartbreaking, too, when a friend of ours went to the visitation. She was speaking with him, and he asked, "How's your mom doing?" She told him that she was cancer-free and began to tear up. He answered with, "That's so great! God is so good." She openly cried then, for him to be so selfless and faithful even after his son was taken from him. They are a faithful and gracious family that needs prayer and support.

Thanks, guys! Sorry for the bit of ranting up there.

Hmmm...from what I've read in your post above I would probably say that debating the individuals from the Churches of Christ isn't going to do much else besides make you more frustrated. I'm not saying you shouldn't defend yourself or your friends, however it looks like those indivuals have made up their minds and sound logic backed by scripture isn't going to change it, so going on the offensive really won't do anything. Of course, the easy way out of some of this is to just get baptised...of course maybe they assume that you have to be baptised in a certain way in order to actually be baptised. I do have to wonder though...how do they reconcile the fact that the New Testament writers and Jesus quote pieces of Old Testament scripture? Wouldn't this mean that at least some of the Old Testament is inspired by God and therefore should be treated as holy? Whatever...if I have learned anything from Theology it's that everyone has a tendency to make minor issues into major issues and condem people to hell because they don't eat unleavened bread every other tuesday.

Anyway, as to all the other you've listed, I will be in prayer.

Lengai, God bless you and be with you and your kin.



And bless that man for having a heart of Christ; that is beautiful beyond anything else.

Peanut (post: 1301494) wrote:Hmmm...from what I've read in your post above I would probably say that debating the individuals from the Churches of Christ isn't going to do much else besides make you more frustrated. I'm not saying you shouldn't defend yourself or your friends, however it looks like those indivuals have made up their minds and sound logic backed by scripture isn't going to change it, so going on the offensive really won't do anything. Of course, the easy way out of some of this is to just get baptised...of course maybe they assume that you have to be baptised in a certain way in order to actually be baptised. I do have to wonder though...how do they reconcile the fact that the New Testament writers and Jesus quote pieces of Old Testament scripture? Wouldn't this mean that at least some of the Old Testament is inspired by God and therefore should be treated as holy? Whatever...if I have learned anything from Theology it's that everyone has a tendency to make minor issues into major issues and condem people to hell because they don't eat unleavened bread every other tuesday.

Anyway, as to all the other you've listed, I will be in prayer.

Thank you.

And, on baptism, I have been baptized. I was by my grandfather when I was seven. It's more them saying we were baptized wrongly, or that we're not saved because we didn't believe that the baptism was saving us. Which is ridiculous.

And, I know, right? They don't seem to get that while the OT's laws and regulations don't apply to Christians (because their reasons for being there were to set God's people apart, and we are set apart through Christ, and Christ was the ultimate sacrifice) that the OT is not useless or wrong, which they seem to think. It's amazing to me, because another Church of Christ in our area only follows the Old Testament (try to figure that one out!). They claim to be the only right ones, and yet they can't agree on their doctrine amongst churches that share their names.

It's heartbreaking and infuriating at the same time.

Lengai... lifting up you and your friends and family members in these situations.

I'm curious, what "Church of Christ" do these people belong to? (If you don't feel it's appropriate to say publicly, feel free to PM me.) The reason I ask is that there is a movement called the International Church of Christ, that holds some of the teachings you've described (especially about baptism into their church and that their church is the only true church). Usually their churches use the Church of Christ name and don't call themselves "[XX] International Church of Christ." But the ICoC is not affiliated with the mainline Churches of Christ or United Church of Christ. Most Christian denominations consider them a cult.

I'm certainly not trying to say these individuals are definitely involved in the ICoC or any other cult; I'd need to know more about the church. It just sounds, from what you've said, like that could be the case. And I agree with what Peanut said; it's probably not going to do a whole lot of good to debate them at this point, especially if they are involved in a less-than-legitimate church. But you can pray for them. God can change even the most confused hearts.

Anyway, like I said, I'll be lifting you up in prayer.

I'm not sure what classification they are in relation to other CoCs - but we've determined, in them telling us what they think, that they are a cult. However, they seem to be the only two so adamant about themselves, because my high school band director is a member there and doesn't act like them, at all. But that might just be because I only really know him and his wife on a professional level. (Even though he seems to have no problem with our band playing 'Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing' for contest two years ago).

We, of course, don't call them a cult to their face, because we only really get what they (and their youth minister) think, not what their church as a whole defines are their doctrine. Of course, I recall them mentioning not really having a defined doctrine. Either way, thank you for your prayers.

Oh, and the boy involved used to attend a Southern Baptist church (Like I do), but the girl sucked him into the CoC because he didn't know what he believed and why he believed it.

Definately praying for the entire situation... The others have good advice and I'm not too sure about the CoC doctrine (other than it sounds completely messed up ^^; ) And if quoting scripture (that they obviously aren't reading in the right context) isn't helping then I think only God can change thier hearts?

My advice? Distance yourself from them if they are making you so unhappy, don't let what they say hurt you, or your witness (because it seems that's what it happening... not that it's your fautl!)

All you can do with people who quarrel with you needlessly is pray that God will change their heart...

I think we need to pray for a lot of churches today...even mainstream ones (not necessarily certain denominations, just certain churches seemed to have missed the point entirely :/

I think as long as God knows your heart (and he does) and you are certain of your salvation... then there isn't anything to worry about XD. They are just yelling into the wind and what they say really doesn't make a difference. Denominations are split, for reasons that dont always make sense...which is sad you know?

Anyways, I'll definately be praying for your family! That's really cool that they get to go on mission trips! ^^

and I'll pray for the family that lost their son too...that can't be an easy thing to go through :/

Basically I'm agreeing with ChristianKitsune. You've given them enough time and now you need to pray for them and ignore them. They're going to insist on using up all your time and energy that could be spent on being fruitful. It seems harsh, but it has to be done sometimes.

The only thing keeping me from doing it has been the foresight of them using it against me/us and it potentially hurting our testimony/integrity.

This is the important part of my post. When they show up and try to start an argument, tell them calmly and politely, "We've given you x amount of time, you refuse to listen to logic and scripture, and you use up our time on pointless arguments instead of letting us be productive. We don't want to do that anymore". Then go back to whatever you were doing. Do this until they get the message and especially in public, where there are witnesses that you're being respectful so they can't try to use it against you. It's also a good witness to others that you handle people who are clearly aggravating you deliberately in a godly manner.